Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
29 March 1942. Farnborough, England.
allanpcameron
Donor
29 March 1942. Farnborough, England.
Brigadier George Davy (CO 3rd Armoured Brigade), along with the Commanding Officers of 2nd, 3rd and 5th Battalions Royal Tank Regiment were on hand as the newest tanks in the British Army were put through their paces. The Victor I pre-production tanks were in the final stages of testing, and 3rd Armoured Brigade were preparing to be issued with the first production models.
Farnborough’s Mechanisation Experimental Establishment (MEE) had become part of the Department of Tank Design within the Ministry of Supply. A new site for testing vehicles was being prepared at Chertsey (originally RAF Chobham) in Surrey. The new purpose-built site would be ready before the end of the year, already some administration elements had already moved.
The RTR men’s presence in Farnborough was quite usual, and a number were on permanent loan. The general feeling of the tankies towards the Victor tank was very positive, it was, like its predecessor the Valiant, going to be very much appreciated by its crews. Among those singing its praises was Sergeant Emmin Hall, a pre-war regular. Having joined the army in 1931, he’s served on the North-West Frontier, and having completed six years, entered the reserves, until recalled in 1939.
Having fought the defensive action back towards Dieppe, allowing 51st Division and 3rd Armoured Brigade to be evacuated, Hall had been seconded to Vickers during the summer of 1941. During his time, having the experience of fighting in the A10 cruiser, Hall had proved his value to Vickers during the design and prototype stages of the Victor’s life. His experience in war had, like all the RTR men, including the B echelon fitters and mechanics, plenty of opinions about what they liked and didn’t like about tanks, their maintenance and fighting ability.
Sir John Carden and his team had tried their best to integrate these experiences into the Victor. Compared to the A9 and A10 cruisers they’d gone to war with, the Victor was bigger, faster, better armoured, and with the 6-pdr gun (75mm HV to follow) much more capable. Various efforts had been made to make the fighting compartment as efficient as possible, with a degree of concern about the men’s well-being. A tank would never be a comfortable place to live and fight, but at least there weren’t many inherent problems causing unnecessary injuries.
The fitters and mechanics’ input about the placement of things they needed easy access to, were integrated as far as possible. The engine was relatively easy to be brought out and replaced in the tank (relative being a very broad term). The designers had had to work pretty hard to satisfy their customers. The various engine types were proving Cardin right in his assessment, that Leyland Meteor engine, built from scratch would be the most reliable. Rover and Meadows hadn’t too many problems, but it was obvious that using bits from aero-engines was likely to be the cause of something going wrong.
Sergeant Emmin Hall knew that when the tanks were issued, he would return to 5th Bn RTR as a tank commander. He would in all likelihood be one of the men training the rest of the Battalion on the use and maintenance of the new tank. After that, the Brigade, currently still part of 1st Armoured Division, would be involved in exercises to get them ready to return to the fray.
The fact that the Royal Tank Regiment was getting these tanks first, would mean that they’d write the handbook on the tank for the rest of the Royal Armoured Corps. It was a job that Hall and his RTR comrades were keen on doing, after all they were the professionals who’d brought the era of tank warfare to birth.
Brigadier George Davy (CO 3rd Armoured Brigade), along with the Commanding Officers of 2nd, 3rd and 5th Battalions Royal Tank Regiment were on hand as the newest tanks in the British Army were put through their paces. The Victor I pre-production tanks were in the final stages of testing, and 3rd Armoured Brigade were preparing to be issued with the first production models.
Farnborough’s Mechanisation Experimental Establishment (MEE) had become part of the Department of Tank Design within the Ministry of Supply. A new site for testing vehicles was being prepared at Chertsey (originally RAF Chobham) in Surrey. The new purpose-built site would be ready before the end of the year, already some administration elements had already moved.
The RTR men’s presence in Farnborough was quite usual, and a number were on permanent loan. The general feeling of the tankies towards the Victor tank was very positive, it was, like its predecessor the Valiant, going to be very much appreciated by its crews. Among those singing its praises was Sergeant Emmin Hall, a pre-war regular. Having joined the army in 1931, he’s served on the North-West Frontier, and having completed six years, entered the reserves, until recalled in 1939.
Having fought the defensive action back towards Dieppe, allowing 51st Division and 3rd Armoured Brigade to be evacuated, Hall had been seconded to Vickers during the summer of 1941. During his time, having the experience of fighting in the A10 cruiser, Hall had proved his value to Vickers during the design and prototype stages of the Victor’s life. His experience in war had, like all the RTR men, including the B echelon fitters and mechanics, plenty of opinions about what they liked and didn’t like about tanks, their maintenance and fighting ability.
Sir John Carden and his team had tried their best to integrate these experiences into the Victor. Compared to the A9 and A10 cruisers they’d gone to war with, the Victor was bigger, faster, better armoured, and with the 6-pdr gun (75mm HV to follow) much more capable. Various efforts had been made to make the fighting compartment as efficient as possible, with a degree of concern about the men’s well-being. A tank would never be a comfortable place to live and fight, but at least there weren’t many inherent problems causing unnecessary injuries.
The fitters and mechanics’ input about the placement of things they needed easy access to, were integrated as far as possible. The engine was relatively easy to be brought out and replaced in the tank (relative being a very broad term). The designers had had to work pretty hard to satisfy their customers. The various engine types were proving Cardin right in his assessment, that Leyland Meteor engine, built from scratch would be the most reliable. Rover and Meadows hadn’t too many problems, but it was obvious that using bits from aero-engines was likely to be the cause of something going wrong.
Sergeant Emmin Hall knew that when the tanks were issued, he would return to 5th Bn RTR as a tank commander. He would in all likelihood be one of the men training the rest of the Battalion on the use and maintenance of the new tank. After that, the Brigade, currently still part of 1st Armoured Division, would be involved in exercises to get them ready to return to the fray.
The fact that the Royal Tank Regiment was getting these tanks first, would mean that they’d write the handbook on the tank for the rest of the Royal Armoured Corps. It was a job that Hall and his RTR comrades were keen on doing, after all they were the professionals who’d brought the era of tank warfare to birth.
It is relevant to the timeline to note that historically, the Valentine tank had a higher overhaul life compared to any of the contemporary British tanks at 2500 to 3600 miles, instead of about 1000-1200 for Matilda II, Crusader and less for early Churchill. So Valentine was more reliable and durable.
Following this example, knowing that Valiant and Victor are spiritual equivalents to the OTL Valentine, it was definitely right of the timeline to make these tanks reliable. The end result is that the Valiant doing so much better than OTL tanks in the desert makes perfect sense.
Following this example, knowing that Valiant and Victor are spiritual equivalents to the OTL Valentine, it was definitely right of the timeline to make these tanks reliable. The end result is that the Valiant doing so much better than OTL tanks in the desert makes perfect sense.
The 6pdr Victor is going to have a very roomy turret!
Plenty of room for extra ammo, radios, pack lunches, and/or aboiling vessel kettle!
I can see the version getting use even after the 75+mm Victors hit production as command tanks, perhaps with dummy gun barrels to disguise them as another variant.
Plenty of room for extra ammo, radios, pack lunches, and/or a
I can see the version getting use even after the 75+mm Victors hit production as command tanks, perhaps with dummy gun barrels to disguise them as another variant.
As much as we joke about a kettle, it’s actually an extremely useful thing to have on a battlefield . Access to hot water goes far beyond mere cups of tea and shaving. It means being able to clean up and being able to sterilise any stagnant water you find anywhere. The second other nationalities find out British forces have these in their tanks they ask themselves “Why the hell didn’t we think of that!”.
Not just that but hot food and rations can be a good send in a lot of ways and not just moral, like in colder climates and the like were being warm is an important survival factor for humans, as well as killing any parasities in water or locally procured food.
Also the medics in the units will like it since hey they can boil and clean banages as well as equipment.
The school of hard knocks is often what institutes change. RAF could have easily invested in Fuel Injection in the 1930s..it wasnt until 1940 they realised the deficency of carburetors when diving. Sadly the reason British tanks have kettles can mostly be attributed to the failures are Villers Bocage, the aftermath saw a lot of senior officers sanctioned but also exposed that a lot of , well trained but green crews who thought , "hey lads , lets get out and make a cuppa while the toffs decide where we're going" would be fine. That might work in the desert when you can see the dust clouds miles away but doesn't fair well when you are up against hardened eastern front German veterans in high intensity Bocage country. After that it was keep the engines running and stay in the tank if you want a brew. Zero reason in this timeline for anyone to have a doctrine change and put a "boiling vessel" in a tank. Tea aside, there is going to a deficency in overall doctrine and experience when even this much improved "mini centurion" V Tank hits the Germans. Without the hard lessons learnt from North Afrika then British complacency has no reason to change. We're a smug lot as a country and tend to only change when that is forced upon us. Yes , Allan did a wonderful job of a realistic alternative where O'Connor isn't captured, has better tanks and can wipe out Afrika Korp before it becomes a threat. In doing so the Allies have never encountered anything heavier than the early Pak guns except limited 88 AA deployed as a stop gap or the long gunned Panzer IVs or Stugs. What's a Tiger? All that development from Fritz has surely still continued, if anything at a faster pace given that British tanks were better ITL in 1940/41, and should have given them a wake up call to the deficencies of the 37mm Pak long before they started bouncing off KVs. Jerry has been learning hard lessons themselves out east that the British ITTL have not. Worse is probably the Americans. Without North Africa, Kasserine and Sicily then they have no reason to replace , and will no doubt continue to produce 10s thousands of 37mm rather than switch to British 57mm. Oh and we look forward to General Fredendall leading the US 1st Army in Normandy.....
Allan, a request if I may. Your superb "Ship Shape and Bristol Fashion" story was all the more readable as you used the narrative, often through the 1980s characters, to stop and summarise the historical changes or give regular updates on the "big picture". Singapore/Malaya has been a fascinating and importantt sideshow hole. We are all still mourning MacArthur, but how about Churchill/ Brooke/O'Connor or Carden have a few cognacs , cigars and "pink gins" around dinner and look at the big picture, recap the overall strategic situation for the rest of us? How's Uncle Joe doing? What's the news from Rome? Dewey surely didn't win this time did he? If so , is Roosevelt able, willing to give as much support? What are we buying from the Yanks? Things aren't quite as desperate ITTL so perhaps Tizard doesn't have so many toys in his bag to hand out like Candy at Halloween to the Americans? Thank you, I enjoy every update.
Sadly, it didn't work too well in the desert either. Oh, it did for the tankers, not so much for the infantry units they were supposed to be supporting while stopping for said tea break, as both the New Zealand and South African divisions can attest. I've seen one document* that describes Kippenburger's unbridled fury when he came upon the British tankers that were supposed to be providing armour for our boys having a cuppa instead. The British officer in command apparently filed a complaint about the language the "colonial" officer had used when told that "his chaps would move forward after they had their tea and not before". This incident ,and others, led to the division being pulled out of the line, so that it could form its own integral armoured unit, the 4th NZ Armoured Brigade.
*It's been a few years since I've seen it now, so I'm a bit foggy on the details.
If anything there's an argument that no matter how well Carden did, the British still have the major bottlenecks of skilled crews, maintenance personnel and infrastructure, spare parts and build quality due to the need to churn out much more tanks and make more armoured formations than the War Office ever anticipated. Plus the inept force structure of Armoured Divisions until August 1942. The greater mechanical reliability and individual performance of the Valiant relative to OTL only partially mitigates these factors (for example by increasing the time interval where the tank can be used until it needs maintenance/overhauls).
Carden seems to be anticipating future needs, so I wouldn't say it's entirely out of the question.
Actually, they encounter 50mm armed Panzer IIIs in North Africa.
They already knew this was an issue. This was why the Panzer IIIs in Africa were upgraded to the 5cm L/42 guns. As for the Tiger, they'll probably show up even later than OTL, and probably on the Eastern Front first.
The British know the Germans are up-armouring, reducing the effectiveness of <2" AT guns. Sure they don't know a new tank is in the works, but as I noted before, it will show up in Russia first anyway, giving them advanced warning.
Far less of the first, since almost none have been lost.
Compared to OTL British armoured forces have suffered considerably fewer losses , meaning more experienced crews have survived to pass on lessons learned. This should help with training, as will the reduced need to deploy anything and everything immediately to NA. Now this might not iron out doctrinal issues but it does allow for more thorough weeding out of unsuitable officers.
I do think MontyMan has made a good point about American armoured units in both wars they didn't generally listen to what the current Combatants would tell them until their hands had been burned. At least at the generals ranks like Patton and Clark, officers like Bradley and Eisenhower maybe willing to listen.
Also armoured crews and battalion and company level officers may take tea or coffee with their British counterpart and listen to what they have to say especially the smart ones.
Also armoured crews and battalion and company level officers may take tea or coffee with their British counterpart and listen to what they have to say especially the smart ones.