Not to mention having to do it while having to deal with Partisans, Bombers from both the Western Allies and the Soviets, sabotage from workers that are impressed to work and getting supplies to Maikop from, at a minimum Romania if not Germany it self.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
In some respect, denying the Soviets access to their Caucasus oil fields would be significant by itself.
The vast Russian motorised counterattacks on American trucks would be far harder, and if both sides can only fuel the same number of tanks, I’d wager that the Germans would have a significant advantage.
The vast Russian motorised counterattacks on American trucks would be far harder, and if both sides can only fuel the same number of tanks, I’d wager that the Germans would have a significant advantage.
10 June 1942. London, England.
allanpcameron
Donor
10 June 1942. London, England.
General Alan Brooke had prepared a statement to be made at an interview with the Soviet Minister of Foreign Affairs Vyacheslav Mikhaylovich Molotov who was on his way through back from the USA to Moscow. The demand for a second front from Moscow were getting deafening. Brooke had finally managed to convince Churchill that Allied forces should not land in France in strength except to stay there, not just to raid the coast. Secondly, unless German morale is deteriorating, then an invasion of France is considered impossible. (1)
What could be done perhaps, at the risk of once again playing the part of perfidious Albion, would be to get Weygand to follow the Syrian example and come over to the Allies. Eden and the Foreign Office were supporters of De Gaulle, but Brooke argued that if Weygand became the voice of Free France, firstly the Germans would need to occupy the whole of France. That would take forces that might overwise be committed to Russia.
The successes in the Mediterranean also provided a possibility of returning onto the European Continent either in Greece (the Prime Minister’s preference) or Sicily (Brooke’s preference). If Hitler could be convinced that an allied invasion of southern Europe was possible, he would again have to consider moving forces from Russia. It was becoming more and more likely that Mussolini would be sidelined. In that case the Germans would be likely to occupy the whole of Italy, again pulling troops away from the eastern front.
The Royal Navy were calling for a halt of the convoys to Russia. In addition to aircraft and U-boats, the Germans now had "Tirpitz", "Admiral Scheer", "Lutzow", "Hipper" and nearly a dozen big destroyers at Narvik and Trondheim. With continual daylight, the previous convoy (PQ 16) had lost six merchantmen to aircraft and one to U-boat attack. Already Home Fleet had lost the cruisers HMS Edinburgh and Trinidad, and HMS King George V had been damaged after ramming and sinking the destroyer HMS Punjabi. If the German fleet sailed to attack the convoy the Royal Navy would be hard pressed to protect the vulnerable merchant ships. (2)
Politically it was impossible for Churchill to stop the next convoy due to leave Iceland at the end of June. He had requested that a full review of the losses in previous PQ convoys be made and suggestions for improvements made. The close escort of the merchantmen was to be increased. The next convoy was to be accompanied by the longer-range destroyers of the Home Fleet. Along with the close escort force of anti-submarine and anti-aircraft ships, the fleet destroyers would be able to confront a sortie by German ships with the threat of a massed torpedo attack. A strong force of cruisers would be shadowing the convoy, ready to intervene and help the destroyers. HMS Victorious, with HMS Duke of York and HMS Renown would be the main covering force. As there was expected to be a large number of American flagged merchant ships in the convoy, Task Force 39, including the carrier USS Wasp and the battleship USS Washington, would join the distant covering force.
The two carriers would be in a position to support the convoy from a distance and HMS Archer, which had been undergoing repairs on the Clyde, would join the convoy itself. It was expected that the presence of the escort carrier with ASV radar equipped Swordfish and Martlet fighters would make life for the Germans harder.
Air Chief Marshall Philip Joubert, AOC Coastal Command, having looked at the problems of PQ 16 had offered to send eight Catalinas and two Squadrons of Hampden torpedo bombers to the Soviet base at Vaenga, along with some photoreconnaissance assets to offer some kind of coverage in addition to the limited Soviet help. This offer was accepted, and the planning for it was expedited.
The Free Norwegians had attempted to put a landing force onto Spitsbergen in May, but it had been attacked by the Luftwaffe and therefore partly failed in its mission. Under the cover of PQ 17 a second attempt would be made to land a force to occupy Spitsbergen and evict the German weather station. The possibility of using the area during the summer months to support the convoys had been considered. Although basing patrol aircraft was rejected as impractical, it was decided to try to place a couple of Royal Fleet Auxiliary tankers to refuel the short-legged escort ships there.
This was one of the first joint operations between the Royal Navy and the US Navy, with American ships under British command. Brooke noted that Admiral Pound had been persuaded to delegate overall command to Admiral Tovey who had been working with TF 39 and built up a good relationship with the American officers.
When Molotov left for Moscow, he had taken with him the assurance that Allied support would not be lacking, the 200000 tons of aid coming on the next convoy was an expression of that. While Stalin might not appreciate it, the sheer scale of naval power employed to protect the convoy was no small matter.
(1) Alan Brooke war diary 10 & 11 June 1942
(2) There is no Pedestal Convoy TTL.
General Alan Brooke had prepared a statement to be made at an interview with the Soviet Minister of Foreign Affairs Vyacheslav Mikhaylovich Molotov who was on his way through back from the USA to Moscow. The demand for a second front from Moscow were getting deafening. Brooke had finally managed to convince Churchill that Allied forces should not land in France in strength except to stay there, not just to raid the coast. Secondly, unless German morale is deteriorating, then an invasion of France is considered impossible. (1)
What could be done perhaps, at the risk of once again playing the part of perfidious Albion, would be to get Weygand to follow the Syrian example and come over to the Allies. Eden and the Foreign Office were supporters of De Gaulle, but Brooke argued that if Weygand became the voice of Free France, firstly the Germans would need to occupy the whole of France. That would take forces that might overwise be committed to Russia.
The successes in the Mediterranean also provided a possibility of returning onto the European Continent either in Greece (the Prime Minister’s preference) or Sicily (Brooke’s preference). If Hitler could be convinced that an allied invasion of southern Europe was possible, he would again have to consider moving forces from Russia. It was becoming more and more likely that Mussolini would be sidelined. In that case the Germans would be likely to occupy the whole of Italy, again pulling troops away from the eastern front.
The Royal Navy were calling for a halt of the convoys to Russia. In addition to aircraft and U-boats, the Germans now had "Tirpitz", "Admiral Scheer", "Lutzow", "Hipper" and nearly a dozen big destroyers at Narvik and Trondheim. With continual daylight, the previous convoy (PQ 16) had lost six merchantmen to aircraft and one to U-boat attack. Already Home Fleet had lost the cruisers HMS Edinburgh and Trinidad, and HMS King George V had been damaged after ramming and sinking the destroyer HMS Punjabi. If the German fleet sailed to attack the convoy the Royal Navy would be hard pressed to protect the vulnerable merchant ships. (2)
Politically it was impossible for Churchill to stop the next convoy due to leave Iceland at the end of June. He had requested that a full review of the losses in previous PQ convoys be made and suggestions for improvements made. The close escort of the merchantmen was to be increased. The next convoy was to be accompanied by the longer-range destroyers of the Home Fleet. Along with the close escort force of anti-submarine and anti-aircraft ships, the fleet destroyers would be able to confront a sortie by German ships with the threat of a massed torpedo attack. A strong force of cruisers would be shadowing the convoy, ready to intervene and help the destroyers. HMS Victorious, with HMS Duke of York and HMS Renown would be the main covering force. As there was expected to be a large number of American flagged merchant ships in the convoy, Task Force 39, including the carrier USS Wasp and the battleship USS Washington, would join the distant covering force.
The two carriers would be in a position to support the convoy from a distance and HMS Archer, which had been undergoing repairs on the Clyde, would join the convoy itself. It was expected that the presence of the escort carrier with ASV radar equipped Swordfish and Martlet fighters would make life for the Germans harder.
Air Chief Marshall Philip Joubert, AOC Coastal Command, having looked at the problems of PQ 16 had offered to send eight Catalinas and two Squadrons of Hampden torpedo bombers to the Soviet base at Vaenga, along with some photoreconnaissance assets to offer some kind of coverage in addition to the limited Soviet help. This offer was accepted, and the planning for it was expedited.
The Free Norwegians had attempted to put a landing force onto Spitsbergen in May, but it had been attacked by the Luftwaffe and therefore partly failed in its mission. Under the cover of PQ 17 a second attempt would be made to land a force to occupy Spitsbergen and evict the German weather station. The possibility of using the area during the summer months to support the convoys had been considered. Although basing patrol aircraft was rejected as impractical, it was decided to try to place a couple of Royal Fleet Auxiliary tankers to refuel the short-legged escort ships there.
This was one of the first joint operations between the Royal Navy and the US Navy, with American ships under British command. Brooke noted that Admiral Pound had been persuaded to delegate overall command to Admiral Tovey who had been working with TF 39 and built up a good relationship with the American officers.
When Molotov left for Moscow, he had taken with him the assurance that Allied support would not be lacking, the 200000 tons of aid coming on the next convoy was an expression of that. While Stalin might not appreciate it, the sheer scale of naval power employed to protect the convoy was no small matter.
(1) Alan Brooke war diary 10 & 11 June 1942
(2) There is no Pedestal Convoy TTL.
Early battle of the North Cape?
Duke of York and Renown (and possibly USS Washington) vs Turpiz (post working over by aircraft from Victorious and Wasp)?
Scheer and Lutzow may not want to get in the way given how out matched they are.
Duke of York and Renown (and possibly USS Washington) vs Turpiz (post working over by aircraft from Victorious and Wasp)?
Scheer and Lutzow may not want to get in the way given how out matched they are.
OTL, this convoy was the (in)famous PQ17, where the mere report that the Tirpitz had sortied panicked the Admiralty into ordering the convoy to scatter, with bloody results. As it turned out, there was no surface attack made on the convoy, Tirpitz was just repositioning. TTL with a beefed-up escort the scatter order is likely not given and the convoy makes it to Murmansk more-or-less intact, while the covering forces sweep the seas for an enemy who isn't there.
Not so sold on the political developments - persuading French North Africa to flip in order to force the Germans to expend resources occupying Vichy France may look good from an Allied-grand-strategy point of view, but isn't likely to be an acceptable sacrifice to any French faction, and Weygand is just the sort of person to dig his heels in if he suspects the Allies are using him. Plus when the plan inevitably leaks to de Gaulle...
Likewise Italy - yes, Italy overthrows Mussolini, drops out of war, is immediately occupied by the Germans who have to divert resources to do it looks good from London. From Rome, any plan of "ditch il Duce, get immediately overrun by those bastard Krauts, the Allies aren't coming to save us" looks a lot less promising. OTL, the Italian surrender was not made in expectation of immediate German occupation - like many other people, they underestimated how fast the Wehrmacht could move - and the clearer they see the gun to their heads, the more likely the Italians are to sit tight.
Not so sold on the political developments - persuading French North Africa to flip in order to force the Germans to expend resources occupying Vichy France may look good from an Allied-grand-strategy point of view, but isn't likely to be an acceptable sacrifice to any French faction, and Weygand is just the sort of person to dig his heels in if he suspects the Allies are using him. Plus when the plan inevitably leaks to de Gaulle...
Likewise Italy - yes, Italy overthrows Mussolini, drops out of war, is immediately occupied by the Germans who have to divert resources to do it looks good from London. From Rome, any plan of "ditch il Duce, get immediately overrun by those bastard Krauts, the Allies aren't coming to save us" looks a lot less promising. OTL, the Italian surrender was not made in expectation of immediate German occupation - like many other people, they underestimated how fast the Wehrmacht could move - and the clearer they see the gun to their heads, the more likely the Italians are to sit tight.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Stalin who while being a viscous cunning thug, was not a great intellect, or had the slightest clue about maritime operations. Is once again demanding that the British commit to an invasion of the European mainland, to take the pressure off the Red Army. Not only was he desperate to relieve the pressure on his army, he hoped to gain long term advantages from a European invasion, especially if it failed. As he could then claim that it was only the People’s Army that defeated the Nazis, and that the corruption capitalists armies were unable to do the job. His total lack of understanding as to what would be involved in an invasion or the tremendous effort required to run a convoy to the Soviet Union, is clearly on display. Plus he has a hidden agenda which he shares with FDR, the elimination of the British Empire as a force in the world, preferably with her former colonies become communist nations aligned with the Soviet Union. Note the Soviet Union had been sending agents into India since its inception, and was beginning to reach out to the remaining British, French, Dutch and Portuguese colonies at the same time. Unfortunately for the British there were numerous fellow travellers in academia and the establishment that were simpatico at best to this aim, or totally deadicated to the overthrow of the British government and its replacement with a British soviet style regime. The final convoy that is going to run before a shutdown for the summer, and there reinstatement once there is sufficient night time again to provide some relief against air attacks. Is going to have a large enough heavy escort that no matter what the threat it will not need to disperse, and should the Germans be so foolish as to launch an attack with their remaining heavy units, suffer a major defeat.
RR.
RR.
Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
Well, if the Allies liberated Norway, they wouldn't need as much naval power to protect Arctic convoys...
Are we actually going to see an 'Operation Jupiter' timeline here?
Minimal air-support, rough terrain, and some very long supply lines? Sounds like a disaster in the making.
Given the rate of successes and fewer losses in men and material isn't Britian better placed to resist unreasonable American and Soviet demands?
Also Right now Britian and the Empire is the only force that has had any consistent victories against the Axis? And is keeping the pressure on then at various points they aren't exactly sitting on there hands.
Vicious, you mean about Stalin. The man wasn’t thick and gooey. Sorry to go all spelling police.
Derek Pullem
Donor
So PQ 17 gets +1 carrier in covering force and an escort carrier in the convoy itself as per PQ18. And the destroyers are first rate.
EDIT - the Hampdens got sent earlier too
PQ18 still lost 33% of its ships though
A lot will depend on the German intentions -
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Significantly fewer German bombers though if all other things are equal 39 vs 200+
PQ18 had to deal with 92 torpedo boats and 120 bombers, with just 12 fighters to oppose the latter.
Unescorted bombers at that.
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Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
See original timeline Torch in late 1942, which had minimal air support, some very rough terrain in places (Atlas Mountains), and some very long supply lines. Only without the British in need of rescuing in North Africa, at least at the time of initial planning, I don't see how Roosevelt can be persuaded into North African landings in this timeline.
That leaves options on the Atlantic coast of Europe of the Iberian peninsula (okay, a friendly reception in Portugal might be possible, but Spain is going to get ugly if Franco doesn't come off the fence in Allied favour), France itself (which has a good, mostly unbombed, rail network that the Germans can at this point use to rush counter-force via and already fortified ports), and Norway (which does at least have limited logistics (one railway line only I think?) for the Germans to bring stuff up the coast from the south on, although Tirpitz is lurking somewhere in the fjords.)
And Roosevelt and Stalin are going to want something somewhere - and the only other (edit: Atlantic coast) option I see is liberating the Channel Islands, which although not mainland Europe might induce the Germans to rush stuff west, in case the Allies try to use them as a bridgehead.
Yes the big threat was aircraft - most of PQ17 and 18s losses where either sunk by aircraft or particularly in the case of PQ17 a number of ships were damaged by aircraft and finished of by U-boats.
And of course the Aircraft could vector in the U-boats.
So without suitable airbases in the north of Norway subsequent convoys will be safer
Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
No, because Stalin is still tying up an absolutely huge number of Axis (including Italians and other minor powers) troops, and if Stalin claims (edit: whether it's brinkmanship or a sincere belief on Stalin's part) he's about to be defeated unless an urgent distraction takes place, the Western Allies are looking at the prospect of having most of those Axis troops being something which they will have to fight their way through some day.
The UK maybe has the final vote on which Atlantic coast operation which Roosevelt is willing to commit American forces to to do, but Stalin can still force the Western Allies to do something, somewhere, because the consequences of their not doing so are potentially too awful to contemplate.
As Northern Norway is only connected to the Swedish rail network, the supply line issues for an Allied landing go both ways. If the Allies get a strong lodgement then the Germans kicking them out is not easy. So ending up with a German Southern Norway and an Allied North with both sides not really able to make a decisive push is possible.
I would be satisfied with that and pretty much little need for the Allies to do much else!
The allies having far greater sea lift capacity would be more able to supply locations in the North of the country.
Norway in such a scenario would be for the German Army a self sustaining POW camp and I would suspect that even more troops and aircraft over OTL (about 1/3rd Million troops) would be sent there fearing such an allied push.