Fell back by virtue of having other things on my mind, and this timeline really progressing. Given how it's not all 'better ideas than OTL' and the yanks really do want to look like they can do something in the far east, I would not discount more US army units trying to join the fight in DEI, most likely with a great many officers and senior enlisted men developing love-hate relationships with their quartermasters on the process.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Probably the same formation of Cargo cults as OTL then given the US could waste resources shipping cold weather gear, ski's and the like out to US personnel in the Pacific.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
The Americans have a very basic problem, especially their Army, which is at war without being at war, unlike their Navy which is at present engaged in what appears to be a life or death struggle with the Japanese. The Navy has somewhat forgotten that in the end the productive capacity of America alone far exceeds that of Japan, and combined with the British Empire, they can eventually build ships and crew them faster than the Japanese could sink them. They are without doubt in for a very hard time over the next year, and it’s going to be at least two years before they are able to build and crew major vessels. Smaller vessels such as destroyers, frigates, gunboats and torpedo boats, along with the first Woolworth carriers, should start to appear in numbers inside of eighteen months. The American Navy much as the Royal Navy, has during the lean years of the inter war period, had the majority of the defence budget spent on it, and stands ready for the major expansion its going to go through. The American Army on the other hand had been staved off funding during the depression, and unlike the USMC who had been involved in a number of minor conflicts. Essentially only used to suppress internal conflicts, such as the Bonus Riots, other than in the Philippines, they were in comparison to the Armies of every other major power small. Even the British Army was pre war larger than the American Army, and had had more money spent on it proportionally, plus the extensive British Empire insured that the majority had seen some service, against more than civilian rioters.
The resent introduction in America of the Selective Service Act, has started the expansion of the American Army, into the major force it will become in time, making it one of the largest and best equipped, supplied Armies ever seen in the world. While the Soviet Army will be larger, it will not be as well equipped or supplied as the Americans. Nor will it be called upon to fight in as many different places or geographical areas as the Americans. Only the British Imperial forces will rival it for the different areas, equipment and supplies, that they bring to the table. However right now the Americans are seriously behind not only their potential enemies, but also their allies, in that they lack the experience and resources, to bring them into the premier league. They have a number of choices, they can split their present divisions in to two or three, using the existing troops to form the core of the new divisions. However this has a number of problems, any such divisions will have to remain in the Continental United States, until they have, been fully equipped, filled out with recruits and conducted the majority of their training. And this is going to take time, time to put the recruits through basic, advanced and trade training, along with fully integrating them into their units and run a number of increasingly complex exercises. The Army will be lucky if it can produce deployable divisions this way in under a year, and it’s going to take close to eighteen months for those divisions to have completed corps size exercises as well.
The American Army can by filling up Guard divisions with Selective Service Men, send a number of them overseas to complete their training, and receive their full complement of equipment. And thus relieve British divisions that are fully formed and equipped to take up active duties. And so I would expect ITTL just as IOTL, the first American division to be sent to the UK, will find itself landing in Belfast. This has two advantages, it relieves a British division of active service, while making cooperation between the Southern Irish military in the event of a German invasion, highly unlikely I know, much easier. As it would be Americans crossing the border to assist the Irish, and not the hated Brits, who even though the Irish high command mostly didn’t have a problem with, there was a large number of the civilians did. Unfortunately for the Americans there isn’t an active front at present where Americans can be sent to be blooded, or the possibility of an invasion against a second line army such as the Vichy French. That would allow them a gentle introduction to modern warfare, any invasion would mean very green Americans rapidly encountering first line Germans, and suffering some serious reversals. At the same time the Americans lack a tank that can go toe to toe with ether the panzer III, or IV, and their highly experienced crews, without getting seriously hurt. The M3 medium, is definitely not the tank to deploy to Europe, though it’s hull will be ideal to base the American SP field gun on. At present the American Army isn’t equipped or trained to fight in Europe, and the only region that it is equipped for, is one that the British would much rather it stayed away from, as it doesn’t need the complications of having American forces in what it regards as its own turf.
RR.
The resent introduction in America of the Selective Service Act, has started the expansion of the American Army, into the major force it will become in time, making it one of the largest and best equipped, supplied Armies ever seen in the world. While the Soviet Army will be larger, it will not be as well equipped or supplied as the Americans. Nor will it be called upon to fight in as many different places or geographical areas as the Americans. Only the British Imperial forces will rival it for the different areas, equipment and supplies, that they bring to the table. However right now the Americans are seriously behind not only their potential enemies, but also their allies, in that they lack the experience and resources, to bring them into the premier league. They have a number of choices, they can split their present divisions in to two or three, using the existing troops to form the core of the new divisions. However this has a number of problems, any such divisions will have to remain in the Continental United States, until they have, been fully equipped, filled out with recruits and conducted the majority of their training. And this is going to take time, time to put the recruits through basic, advanced and trade training, along with fully integrating them into their units and run a number of increasingly complex exercises. The Army will be lucky if it can produce deployable divisions this way in under a year, and it’s going to take close to eighteen months for those divisions to have completed corps size exercises as well.
The American Army can by filling up Guard divisions with Selective Service Men, send a number of them overseas to complete their training, and receive their full complement of equipment. And thus relieve British divisions that are fully formed and equipped to take up active duties. And so I would expect ITTL just as IOTL, the first American division to be sent to the UK, will find itself landing in Belfast. This has two advantages, it relieves a British division of active service, while making cooperation between the Southern Irish military in the event of a German invasion, highly unlikely I know, much easier. As it would be Americans crossing the border to assist the Irish, and not the hated Brits, who even though the Irish high command mostly didn’t have a problem with, there was a large number of the civilians did. Unfortunately for the Americans there isn’t an active front at present where Americans can be sent to be blooded, or the possibility of an invasion against a second line army such as the Vichy French. That would allow them a gentle introduction to modern warfare, any invasion would mean very green Americans rapidly encountering first line Germans, and suffering some serious reversals. At the same time the Americans lack a tank that can go toe to toe with ether the panzer III, or IV, and their highly experienced crews, without getting seriously hurt. The M3 medium, is definitely not the tank to deploy to Europe, though it’s hull will be ideal to base the American SP field gun on. At present the American Army isn’t equipped or trained to fight in Europe, and the only region that it is equipped for, is one that the British would much rather it stayed away from, as it doesn’t need the complications of having American forces in what it regards as its own turf.
RR.
Which continues the question of: Where should they go? I presume there’ll still be calls for Operation Sledgehammer. Which would probably be even worse an idea ITL than OTL. Apart from working-up exercises with the CW Forces, that leaves somewhere beyond Continental Europe, unless FDR can get the Vichy to switch as soon as they launch Dragoon.
I see the options are:
Balkans (Churchill & the Greeks will like it. Everyone else won’t)
Sicily
Corsica (easy start against Vichy)
Or try to help Uncle Joe by landing in Narvik & the Lofotens to cut off the Germans in the North Cape, stop shipments of Swedish Iron Ore, and “encourage” the Finns to switch sides swiftly.
Or should they stay at home and generate more divisions via mitosis, or “skimming off”?
The problem as I see it is that the only landing area that isn’t perfect for the defender, is Northern France. And rushing Overlord isn’t Likely going to go down too well. Especially before Kursk.
If ITALY is neutral then Sicily, Rhodes, Greece (Crete) and the Balkans are no go. You can attack the Vichy French colonies but will add another enemy to your list. Denmark and the low Countries I think are a no go since Germany can reinforce a lot easier than the allies. So that only leaves the Chanel Iles and Norway.
This is assuming that the Germans will let the Italains go Neutral they are to close and it would be to easy for Benny to 'invite' German units into Italy to defend them.
Wouldn't it be far enough into the Italian air space and territorial waters to make it a bit of a diecy target.
I mean the Italian Navy is so much scrap at this point but their Airforce is still in being.
A lot bloody better than Sicily on that score! Sicily is a hair bigger than Sardinia, but has around four times the population.
Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
I've lost track of where Lord Mountbatten is in this timeline, but if he's in the UK and the Americans are desperate to land in France, I'm sure Lord Mountbatten could revise some plans for Canadian tourists to visit Dieppe to get some Americans in, as well.
For that matter, if the Americans are desperate to do something in Europe and there's no North African descent being planned, they might insist on being in on 'Operation Rutter' if it's in the works and they hear about it.
For that matter, if the Americans are desperate to do something in Europe and there's no North African descent being planned, they might insist on being in on 'Operation Rutter' if it's in the works and they hear about it.
18 March 1942. Palestine.
allanpcameron
Donor
18 March 1942. Palestine.
The Royal Hellenic Army and the Yugoslav Army Outside the Homeland were made up of those who’d been lucky enough to be evacuated from their occupied countries. Arriving in Egypt with a minimum of equipment, the process of bringing both Armies up to scale had been a hard year’s worth of work.
The Greek army at least still held Crete, and a full Division’s worth of men held the island. The Yugoslavs had managed to scrape together enough men for a Brigade. This would have been more, but many of those who’d escaped wanted to return and serve with the Partisans. The British Special Operations Executive were more than happy take them, along with some of the Greeks, to train them in guerrilla warfare techniques.
The Yugoslav Brigade was now fully equipped to British army standards. It had taken a lot of work to get used to the new weapons, but there was a thirst to get back at the Germans as quickly as possible. Yugoslavia was conglomeration of many languages, religions and traditions. The Yugoslav Brigade reflected this disparate background, though the majority were Serbs. The British liaisons wondered if the Brigade could ever work together when there were such strong disagreements among them. One solution had been to have the Yugoslav Brigade exercise with the 5th Indian Division. An Indian Division was similarly made up of men from a wide variety of backgrounds, but the Indian Army had found a way of working together even if it involved a fairly complex support system.
The Greeks were in a better position. The Greek Division on Crete had been named as 5th Cretan Division, while those in Palestine were named 1st Infantry and 19th Mechanised Division. Increasing the numbers of Greek Divisions had been halted at these three currently. General Papagos, at Greek High Command on Crete, knew that he had enough men to form at least one or two more Divisions, but his army lacked specialists and enough trained officers and NCOs. The British had been very helpful in training up the people necessary to have complete Divisions, but Papagos was aware that he needed a pool of reserves.
Having trained with Italian equipment, the 19th Mechanised Division was now at a proficiency that had been lacking before the German invasion. Originally modelled on the French Light Cavalry Division (Division de Cavalerie Légère), the Greek 19th Mechanised Division was now formed more like the new style British Armoured Division with one Brigade of armoured vehicles and one Motorised Infantry Brigade. The armoured vehicles were captured Italian tanks and tankettes, which had proven useful at least for training purposes. The idea of going into action using them just wasn’t acceptable. British or American tanks were both in short supply currently, so there was something of an impasse.
O’Connor’s 8th Army had 2nd and 7th Armoured Divisions. Jumbo Wilson’s 10th Army had 10th Armoured Division in Persia, which was now fully equipped with a mixture of Stuart M3 Light Tanks and Crusaders. 8th Armoured Division hadn’t been allocated yet, they remained GHQ Middle East Force’s reserves. General Wavell was hopeful that negotiations with the Vichy French in Levant and North Africa would bring things to a peaceful conclusion. If that was the case then the French, like the Greeks would need to equipped, realistically with American equipment. Wavell and Papagos had reached an agreement that once Rhodes was captured from the Italians, that Greek troops would garrison the island, and then the other Dodecanese islands in due course. The chance of an early return to the Greek mainland was remote, so the 19th Mechanised Division would have plenty of time to be properly equipped for the role.
The Royal Hellenic Army and the Yugoslav Army Outside the Homeland were made up of those who’d been lucky enough to be evacuated from their occupied countries. Arriving in Egypt with a minimum of equipment, the process of bringing both Armies up to scale had been a hard year’s worth of work.
The Greek army at least still held Crete, and a full Division’s worth of men held the island. The Yugoslavs had managed to scrape together enough men for a Brigade. This would have been more, but many of those who’d escaped wanted to return and serve with the Partisans. The British Special Operations Executive were more than happy take them, along with some of the Greeks, to train them in guerrilla warfare techniques.
The Yugoslav Brigade was now fully equipped to British army standards. It had taken a lot of work to get used to the new weapons, but there was a thirst to get back at the Germans as quickly as possible. Yugoslavia was conglomeration of many languages, religions and traditions. The Yugoslav Brigade reflected this disparate background, though the majority were Serbs. The British liaisons wondered if the Brigade could ever work together when there were such strong disagreements among them. One solution had been to have the Yugoslav Brigade exercise with the 5th Indian Division. An Indian Division was similarly made up of men from a wide variety of backgrounds, but the Indian Army had found a way of working together even if it involved a fairly complex support system.
The Greeks were in a better position. The Greek Division on Crete had been named as 5th Cretan Division, while those in Palestine were named 1st Infantry and 19th Mechanised Division. Increasing the numbers of Greek Divisions had been halted at these three currently. General Papagos, at Greek High Command on Crete, knew that he had enough men to form at least one or two more Divisions, but his army lacked specialists and enough trained officers and NCOs. The British had been very helpful in training up the people necessary to have complete Divisions, but Papagos was aware that he needed a pool of reserves.
Having trained with Italian equipment, the 19th Mechanised Division was now at a proficiency that had been lacking before the German invasion. Originally modelled on the French Light Cavalry Division (Division de Cavalerie Légère), the Greek 19th Mechanised Division was now formed more like the new style British Armoured Division with one Brigade of armoured vehicles and one Motorised Infantry Brigade. The armoured vehicles were captured Italian tanks and tankettes, which had proven useful at least for training purposes. The idea of going into action using them just wasn’t acceptable. British or American tanks were both in short supply currently, so there was something of an impasse.
O’Connor’s 8th Army had 2nd and 7th Armoured Divisions. Jumbo Wilson’s 10th Army had 10th Armoured Division in Persia, which was now fully equipped with a mixture of Stuart M3 Light Tanks and Crusaders. 8th Armoured Division hadn’t been allocated yet, they remained GHQ Middle East Force’s reserves. General Wavell was hopeful that negotiations with the Vichy French in Levant and North Africa would bring things to a peaceful conclusion. If that was the case then the French, like the Greeks would need to equipped, realistically with American equipment. Wavell and Papagos had reached an agreement that once Rhodes was captured from the Italians, that Greek troops would garrison the island, and then the other Dodecanese islands in due course. The chance of an early return to the Greek mainland was remote, so the 19th Mechanised Division would have plenty of time to be properly equipped for the role.
Well, with a relatively large presence of the military in Palestine, does make me wonder whther it could change the British position in regards to it's Middle East partners, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
I would still think that there would be restriction on the acceptance of Jewish refugees into Palestine that basically the same as OTL, although the upcoming riots that came with it could perhaps be changed, for better or worse....
P/s: I have no idea how on earth do I somehow click ignore this thread, but glad to see updates still coming in.
I would still think that there would be restriction on the acceptance of Jewish refugees into Palestine that basically the same as OTL, although the upcoming riots that came with it could perhaps be changed, for better or worse....
P/s: I have no idea how on earth do I somehow click ignore this thread, but glad to see updates still coming in.
Last edited:
Derek Pullem
Donor
Not sure I'd call either Saudi or Egypt "partners". Egypt would come closest but history suggests that protectorate / puppet would be better terms.
Perversely an early ejection of the Germans and Italians from North Africa may make Anglo-Egyptian relations worse not better
Hmm Greeks are in a much stronger position when compared with OTL given everything with both Crete being held and the greater time it took for the Axis to take the mainland the more people that could be evacuated. Yugoslava is about the same though that will more than likely go the way of OTL witilh Tito being favoured.
Heck even with Italian gear they should be able to take and hold or take over from British forces in garrison duties as has been said.
Heck taking back the Greek Islands earlier than OTL as well means their Jewish communities won't be sent to the camps which is a major victory in my book
Heck even with Italian gear they should be able to take and hold or take over from British forces in garrison duties as has been said.
Heck taking back the Greek Islands earlier than OTL as well means their Jewish communities won't be sent to the camps which is a major victory in my book
you mean hopefully the Anzac formations are still in fighting form after the mediterranean island hoping is over for them to be transferred to sea
They probably will be in decent given the fact both DUKE and Allied forces hold Crete and Cyprus as bases it makes it harder to slip forces and hardware out to the Axis held islands by ship or air. Also most of the Islands are held by Italians who have had their ass kicked repeatedly from day one, they are going to be half defeated in there own mind already so they will probably surrender after token resistance.