Guess on major advantage ITTL is more training time with various formations with the PIAT which means more effective deployment and skilled usage since they have had way more time due to work out any bugs and figure out the best ways to employ and use it.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
I have to disagree. The Bombard wasn’t specifically developed for the Home Guard. It was developed as a static, emergency weapon that could, theoretically, take out a tank without requiring the critically small amount of mobile AT guns to be diverted from those few divisions with a modicum of mobility. It was issued to the Home Guard because they were the troops available for the more static roles. But it had actually initially been adopted by the British Army for the same role.
IIRC ITTL the evacuation from Dunkirk managed to take off small arms but did not appreciably increase the amount of mobile AT guns saved. So the situation is much the same as OTL. Even if the BEF had been able to take off 2 pounders, the massive expansion of British formations in this period, and the inability of 2 pounder production to keep up, means that an expedient solution is likely still required. Especially since even with a better showing it would still very much look like a German invasion of Britain was soon to be attempted.
So I think the Bombard is still likely to have come about as OTL. Certainly Blacker took his ideas to the War Office and was introduced to Jefferis at the start of the war, before any ITTL changes to the fall of France could significantly butterfly it.
If nothing else, as an ancestor of the Hedgehog, it’s loss would be keenly felt by the RN.
Perhaps not. There was a great deal of fighting between the various anti-submarine mortar teams and there were at least three different weapons under development, all in parallel. Losing Hedgehog perhaps simplifies things as there might be a bit less in-fighting, though I might be optimistic there.
In any event the RN would still have the other two and they were the more promising ones. Hedgehog was ultimately a dead end post-war, it was too scatter gun and not accurate enough to use the information from the more precise late war ASDIC/Sonar sets. I'd expect Squid to be in service earlier and if they really need a stop-gap then the Fairlie Mortar/Parsnip can be rushed in.
allanpcameron
Donor
I looked up the PIAT and it only entered production later in 1942 and debuted in Tunisia in 1943, so nothing much has changed at the moment.
Allan
Allan
17 March 1942. Fort Knox, Kentucky, USA
allanpcameron
Donor
17 March 1942. Fort Knox, Kentucky, USA
Just recently promoted and now commanding 1st Armored Division, Major-General Orlando Ward hung up the phone with a sigh. There was still no sign of where and when his Division was to move. Ever since they arrived back at Fort Knox on 7 December, they’d been on the alert for a move. Like Major-General Bruce Magurder whom he replaced, Ward had been trying to get some kind of movement orders. The loss of all those good men on the Bataan Peninsula was yet another reason why a fully trained and equipped Armored Division shouldn’t be sitting on its tail, while there was a war going on. Frustration was the main emotion being felt all through the Division, probably the entire US Army.
There’d been all sorts of false alarms, they might be shipped to England, they might be shipped directly to the Philippines, then the rumour was they were off to Australia. Ward and his men just wanted to get into the war. They had two battalions of M3 mediums, one of M3 light tanks, an armoured infantry regiment, the full Field Artillery compliment, reconnaissance, engineers, medical, logistics, everything needed to take the battle to the enemy. Instead, they were sitting around waiting for someone up the chain of command to make a decision. Meanwhile men were bleeding and dying in the Philippines, for want of the kind of firepower that ‘Old Ironsides’ could provide.
Just recently promoted and now commanding 1st Armored Division, Major-General Orlando Ward hung up the phone with a sigh. There was still no sign of where and when his Division was to move. Ever since they arrived back at Fort Knox on 7 December, they’d been on the alert for a move. Like Major-General Bruce Magurder whom he replaced, Ward had been trying to get some kind of movement orders. The loss of all those good men on the Bataan Peninsula was yet another reason why a fully trained and equipped Armored Division shouldn’t be sitting on its tail, while there was a war going on. Frustration was the main emotion being felt all through the Division, probably the entire US Army.
There’d been all sorts of false alarms, they might be shipped to England, they might be shipped directly to the Philippines, then the rumour was they were off to Australia. Ward and his men just wanted to get into the war. They had two battalions of M3 mediums, one of M3 light tanks, an armoured infantry regiment, the full Field Artillery compliment, reconnaissance, engineers, medical, logistics, everything needed to take the battle to the enemy. Instead, they were sitting around waiting for someone up the chain of command to make a decision. Meanwhile men were bleeding and dying in the Philippines, for want of the kind of firepower that ‘Old Ironsides’ could provide.
That must be frustrating for them just sat there getting also sorts of mixed signals, though God help them if they have to go to the UK and Exercise against Valintines and the Victors that are coming online.
There M3 Mediums and M3 lights will be eaten alive by any British or god forbid German Armoured formations. Out east though they could make a world of difference for any campaign out there.
There M3 Mediums and M3 lights will be eaten alive by any British or god forbid German Armoured formations. Out east though they could make a world of difference for any campaign out there.
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True, also even with events moved up due to the end in Africa being more than a year early any assault on Italy won't happen before late 1942 by which time the M4 should be in full service. France won't be before 1943 or possibly still in 1944. As such the crap tanks aren't needed anywhere they'll actually be crap so send them where they can do some good and while the West is stalled get a little ahead of the game in the east.
Hedgehog was a lesser system, yes, but it was one that could be fitted without losing surface firepower (Squid required replacing a forward turret, due to the weight), and could be fitted to the deck of virtually any vessel, including those too like to take larger systems. It was also an ahead-throwing weapon, and one that didn't explode if it didn't hit. Whether or not it was the most successful system isn't an issues, because it was notable more successful than dropping depth charges over the rear.
The only place to send them right now is SEA, and Britain already has that under control.
Also a place where the M3 Medium is an excellent tank compared to its opponents.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
While it makes a lot of sense to send the 1st American Armoured Division to SEA, the fact is the British don’t want them, as they would only be problems, in logistics and command. While the British have by now basically got the logistics of supplying various British, Dominion and Imperial troops with all they require. Adding an American division, with totally different supply requirements, into the mix would cause major problems, that would require a dedicated supply chain just for this division. Nor at present is there much use for them in either Australia or the DEI, as in addition to being totally green with no combat experience, their equipment is to heavy for any environment outside of Australia. Far better to send them to either North Africa or the UK, where they can compete their training against experienced armoured formations. And if sent to North Africa take part in the eventual invasion of Italy, which will happen unless the Italians decide to remove Benito and switch sides.
RR.
True although in regards to Italy just as in OTL they're going to be very worried about what the German's will do to them if they do try and breakaway (especially if the invasion comes as soon as 1942). Unless they can get the allies on the passes before Germany even moves troops in (which happened well before the capitulation OTL) the Italian's have to anticipate an occupation and won't want to risk that (especially having had a ring side seat out east of what Germany can do) until there is no other option and the hope that it won't be for very long if the allies are already in Italy when they surrender.
I think North Africa would be better for one it would give O'Conner, who at this point is the DUKE Premier armoured commander, he can size up his American counterpart as well as give first-hand feedback as well and give them the chance to both train them up for any operation against the Kingdom of Italy or possible Operations against French North Africa.
The problem is that the US Army could either expand rapidly to its desired Continental army size by splitting a formed and mostly trained units into 2 new ones every year or send it into combat and slow down said expansion.
It could not do both
Look on the bright side. There weren’t as many M3s as there were M1s.
Maybe the Yanks could be shipped to the UK have a go with the new British Panzer Division? Either that or North Africa, as suggested before to play with O’Connor and make Benny’s collar sweaty.
Or potentially, if the China Lobby wins, they could try to drive up the Burma Road.
The former would make US forces more effective in Europe, the last would probably make Mao a footnote in history.
US tanker... they will moan and clamore for better tank.
If the star aligned i think that they might go straight to 90mm sherman, with 76 as interum. But At the very least, they will be very self conscious by the victor.
If the star aligned i think that they might go straight to 90mm sherman, with 76 as interum. But At the very least, they will be very self conscious by the victor.
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Shipping to England will not only let the US armored division go up against the new opfor that is being established to gain experience but will also free up another division from England to leave the island without letting the opposition say that they are weakening the home defenses.
Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
I think original timeline some kind of decision got taken that the Army of the United States would do Europe, and the Navy would do the Pacific, although the USN would still do things like convoys to the UK, chauffeur Roosevelt to conferences, and try to play whack-a-boat with German submarines.
I don't know how much things like the Texan (or whomever they were) unit somewhere in Timor might change this though. Possibly quartermasters for the United States' armed forces are going to develop headaches they didn't get in the original timelines.