Possibly so, but even if they are building it on a Venom chassis they are still building prototypes, which means you are not getting to transfer that effort into more Venoms.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
It generally isn’t. The point that got us on the Tortoise was that more Venoms could be had by cancelling the Tortoise and Valiant (among others). Possibly more than their own numbers since more work was required on the prototypes. My point it that even if it were true that effort on prototypes IOTL can be directly put into production ITTL (it’s not that simple) the Tortoise (or something like it) is still probably going to be looked at.
TBF going off the way Allan Brook and Churchill were talking in the car previously I think Churchill may have been persuaded to push the development of the Universal tank concept staking up with the victories which proves the development of a set model of tank with various supporting elements attached does work.
It's likely that the Black Prince (if it even is a thing) will be designed to take a Meteor or at least a more powerful engine from the beginning, to be honest; given how the idea of aero engines in tanks is already pretty widespread (unless you're Nuffield).
To go into mass production? No
For the Ministry of Supply to commission Vauxhall to make 6 porotypes in their development workshop as a backup if any of the other programs (Venom) for a 17 pounder armed tank fail? Yes.
Technically this includes Nuffield as the Liberty was an aero-engine. 😋
The Venom might well be carrying a 32-pounder gun as standard. They're certainly looking at the 3.7" as the main armament, though the weight of the shell is, as yet, still undecided.
No, it's that it was Churchill Upsized.
Exactly. but building it on a Venom chassis would make it a bit quicker to produce.
It was designed to take a Meteor from the start. It was just so damned heavy it was still only capable of 10.5 mph tops, on roads.
Eh, a Sherman Firefly would be a better bet TBH, becuase at least that would be capable of moving faster than a brisk walk.
Also, once the Victor enters full-scale production, it might worth seeing if the artillery boys want some of the old Valiants for conversion into either Archer style 17-pounder SPATGs or Sexton style mobile artillery.
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The Black Prince was never fitted with a Meteor Engine from what a quick wiki skim can tell me.
It had the same 350-horsepower engine as the Churchill Tank...
Ah, okay. Must be getting my wires crossed. Still, its top speed will be limited by the noise of the running gear, as the Churchill's was before it.
I think that's true with most tanks to be fair...but the Black Prince could likely still manage about as quick as a Heavy Churchill running flat out if it got the Meteor.
28 February 1942. Lembang, Java.
allanpcameron
Donor
28 February 1942. Lembang, Java.
General Auchinleck was reading through the reports that had come in during the night. Two ships, USS Langley and SS Sea Witch, had successfully unloaded their P40 fighters at Tjilatjap. The fifty-seven fighters would be a godsend once they were fully operational. At least the thirty-two off the Langley were already assembled, those on the Sea Witch were in crates and it would take a great deal of effort to get them fit for the fight.
The USAAF’s 5th Air Force were really starting to gather in strength. Arriving at Brisbane just the other day from the US were three squadrons of A-20’s, four of B26s and a couple of P39 fighter squadrons, it might be another couple of months for them to be operational, but Air Marshall Richard Peirse (CO ABDAair) was becoming more confident about going on the offensive.
Peirse, very sensibly to Auchinleck’s mind, wasn’t interfering with Major General Lewis Brereton (GOC 5th Air Force) operational control. Instead Peirse was trying to keep the overview of the whole ABDA situation. The Dutch ML-KNIL and MLD were on their last legs, and while the American reinforcements reaching Java were extremely welcome, the attack on Surabaya showed up just how weak the air defence of Java was. Until that could be improved then naval action was always going to be limited. Force Z was meant to have come forward from Ceylon for another sortie, but the loses at Surabaya had meant it had to be postponed. Even with HMS Ark Royal in attendance, the need for land-based fighter support would be needed for the battlewagons. Peirse and Brereton were both convinced of the efficacy of bombers and Auchinleck worried a little that they might become myopic about this.
The RAF build up in Singapore and Burma was another sign of hope for Auchinleck and the next Durban-Malaya convoy was due to arrive at Rangoon and Singapore in early March bringing much needed reinforcements for the RAF and some mobile radar stations. The tide was definitely turning regarding the air war in Malaya and Burma, Auchinleck noted the importance of the American Volunteer Group who’d given the RAF some very good pointers about how to fight the Japanese rather than the Germans and Italians.
The problem of the Philippines wasn’t getting any easier. Reports from Bataan suggested that a new formation of Japanese troops was replacing the worn out units that had withdrawn. As far as Intelligence could surmise, the 48th Japanese Division was the new formation. They had been pulled back and rested when the American and Philippine forces had retired to the Bataan Peninsula. It was possible that the 48th Division was meant to continue the conquest of the Netherlands East Indies, but perhaps had to be used to finish off MacArthur’s force. If indeed that was the case the situation on Bataan would likely take a turn for the worse very quickly.
While Rabaul and New Guinea weren’t specifically part of ABDA’s remit, Auchinleck noted that evacuation of the Australian Brigade on New Britain was underway, albeit slowly. The American infantry units which were tasked with securing New Caledonia for the Free French were being looked at as a possible blocking force in the Solomon Islands. The Intelligence wasn’t clear about Japanese intentions. Reading between the lines, the Australians had given the Rabaul invasion force a good kicking, so that they weren’t in a position currently to keep moving forward. If that was the case then Brigadier Savige’s men had done a lot better than it looked.
The good news was that overall, the Japanese advance seemed to have been halted for the moment. With Dutch and American forces holding Kendari on the Celebes, then Ambon and Timor seemed safe enough protecting the route from Australia to Java. The loss of Borneo gave the Japanese airfields close enough to constantly threaten Java. The USAAF bombers were doing their best to prevent those air fields from being developed, and once the numbers of US medium bombers increased, then that mission should be made easier.
Auchinleck had requested help from London regarding the probability of having to organise amphibious operations. The War Office had sent his request to Lord Louis Mountbatten, Combined Operations Advisor to the Chiefs of Staff, but Auchinleck wasn’t sure what help Mountbatten or his new organisation would be. The point was moot until Auchinleck had a strong enough force to be able to dig the Japanese out of Borneo, and open the way to the Philippines.
General Alexander in Burma and Lieutenant-General Cunningham were getting the lion’s share of reinforcements coming from Britain and the Middle East. The Dutch forces were going to be limited to holding the Malay barrier, with allied help. Going on the offensive would require a lot more infantry, The fact that the Australian 7 Division were trained in amphibious operations for the forthcoming Dodecanese campaign was interesting. Auchinleck suspected that Wavell would have a serious grievance if the Australian Division was re-tasked to ABDA Command.
General Auchinleck was reading through the reports that had come in during the night. Two ships, USS Langley and SS Sea Witch, had successfully unloaded their P40 fighters at Tjilatjap. The fifty-seven fighters would be a godsend once they were fully operational. At least the thirty-two off the Langley were already assembled, those on the Sea Witch were in crates and it would take a great deal of effort to get them fit for the fight.
The USAAF’s 5th Air Force were really starting to gather in strength. Arriving at Brisbane just the other day from the US were three squadrons of A-20’s, four of B26s and a couple of P39 fighter squadrons, it might be another couple of months for them to be operational, but Air Marshall Richard Peirse (CO ABDAair) was becoming more confident about going on the offensive.
Peirse, very sensibly to Auchinleck’s mind, wasn’t interfering with Major General Lewis Brereton (GOC 5th Air Force) operational control. Instead Peirse was trying to keep the overview of the whole ABDA situation. The Dutch ML-KNIL and MLD were on their last legs, and while the American reinforcements reaching Java were extremely welcome, the attack on Surabaya showed up just how weak the air defence of Java was. Until that could be improved then naval action was always going to be limited. Force Z was meant to have come forward from Ceylon for another sortie, but the loses at Surabaya had meant it had to be postponed. Even with HMS Ark Royal in attendance, the need for land-based fighter support would be needed for the battlewagons. Peirse and Brereton were both convinced of the efficacy of bombers and Auchinleck worried a little that they might become myopic about this.
The RAF build up in Singapore and Burma was another sign of hope for Auchinleck and the next Durban-Malaya convoy was due to arrive at Rangoon and Singapore in early March bringing much needed reinforcements for the RAF and some mobile radar stations. The tide was definitely turning regarding the air war in Malaya and Burma, Auchinleck noted the importance of the American Volunteer Group who’d given the RAF some very good pointers about how to fight the Japanese rather than the Germans and Italians.
The problem of the Philippines wasn’t getting any easier. Reports from Bataan suggested that a new formation of Japanese troops was replacing the worn out units that had withdrawn. As far as Intelligence could surmise, the 48th Japanese Division was the new formation. They had been pulled back and rested when the American and Philippine forces had retired to the Bataan Peninsula. It was possible that the 48th Division was meant to continue the conquest of the Netherlands East Indies, but perhaps had to be used to finish off MacArthur’s force. If indeed that was the case the situation on Bataan would likely take a turn for the worse very quickly.
While Rabaul and New Guinea weren’t specifically part of ABDA’s remit, Auchinleck noted that evacuation of the Australian Brigade on New Britain was underway, albeit slowly. The American infantry units which were tasked with securing New Caledonia for the Free French were being looked at as a possible blocking force in the Solomon Islands. The Intelligence wasn’t clear about Japanese intentions. Reading between the lines, the Australians had given the Rabaul invasion force a good kicking, so that they weren’t in a position currently to keep moving forward. If that was the case then Brigadier Savige’s men had done a lot better than it looked.
The good news was that overall, the Japanese advance seemed to have been halted for the moment. With Dutch and American forces holding Kendari on the Celebes, then Ambon and Timor seemed safe enough protecting the route from Australia to Java. The loss of Borneo gave the Japanese airfields close enough to constantly threaten Java. The USAAF bombers were doing their best to prevent those air fields from being developed, and once the numbers of US medium bombers increased, then that mission should be made easier.
Auchinleck had requested help from London regarding the probability of having to organise amphibious operations. The War Office had sent his request to Lord Louis Mountbatten, Combined Operations Advisor to the Chiefs of Staff, but Auchinleck wasn’t sure what help Mountbatten or his new organisation would be. The point was moot until Auchinleck had a strong enough force to be able to dig the Japanese out of Borneo, and open the way to the Philippines.
General Alexander in Burma and Lieutenant-General Cunningham were getting the lion’s share of reinforcements coming from Britain and the Middle East. The Dutch forces were going to be limited to holding the Malay barrier, with allied help. Going on the offensive would require a lot more infantry, The fact that the Australian 7 Division were trained in amphibious operations for the forthcoming Dodecanese campaign was interesting. Auchinleck suspected that Wavell would have a serious grievance if the Australian Division was re-tasked to ABDA Command.
It is a bit of a sink for the Japanese and not just subs could have a few other Raiders out and since the air is co reseted as well.
nice to see the british army and the ministry putting its foot down about the type of tank they want now they just have to kill off the monstrosity that the old guard is wasting money on
It seems that Portuguese Timor is safe from the Japanese, but now the Allies need another excuse to request an airfield in Azores
Part of the problem is that MacArthur's staff played a large role in his fumbling of the Philippines.
But the man is not a coward, remember, he was completely willing OTL, of fighting to the death for the Philippines and it took President Roosevelt personally ordering him to evacuate in order to get him to leave. The laundry list of decorations he received even before World War II is a testament to that.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
I would suggest that it’s not a question of the Allies needing an excuse to ask for airfields in the Azores. But rather the Portuguese government trying to find an excuse to provide them. Portugals greatest fear was being dragged into the war, and an invasion by the Spanish, who despite the state it was in as a result of the Civil War. Did have substantial military forces with very recent experience, that could easily overwhelm the Portuguese Army. However it is becoming increasingly obvious to the Spanish and Portuguese that the Germans and Italians are not going to win. And with America, which was Spains principle supplier of grain and oil, now in the war, once the American administration has recovered from the Japanese attack and Germanys declaration of war. The pressure on Spain to guarantee Portugals borders and reduce its commitment to Germany, will ratchet up week by week. I would expect that a deal to establish an airfield in the Azores, between the Americans and the Portuguese, will be in place by the end of the year.
RR.