Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

I think that in this timeline the Germans will be able to counterattack in Stalingrad

maybe it could even be a similar to kursh where the germans got a military victory but the russians a tactical and political victory
Tet Offensive

South Vietnamese-American tactical victory[1]

North Vietnamese/Viet Cong propaganda, political and strategic victory[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive#cite_note-2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive#cite_note-2
;)
 
I wonder what sort of casualties the Bulgarians had during their retrat through Thessaly. They are not motorized and had to deal with armoured columns in a fat plain. How many divisions had before and how many divisions were bagged, destroyed or suffered moderate losses. Not to mention that to pull back they would have had to abandon a great percentage of their heavy equipment.
 
I think that in this timeline the Germans will be able to counterattack in Stalingrad

maybe it could even be a similar to kursh where the germans got a military victory but the russians a tactical and political victory
I fail to see why would the German counterattack work. They have no advantages on their side exactly like OTL. I would argue they are on a weaker position slightly. Also Kursk was an obvious and decisive Soviet victory both tactically and strategically as well as politically.

I wonder what sort of casualties the Bulgarians had during their retrat through Thessaly. They are not motorized and had to deal with armoured columns in a fat plain. How many divisions had before and how many divisions were bagged, destroyed or suffered moderate losses. Not to mention that to pull back they would have had to abandon a great percentage of their heavy equipment.
I think they are retreating in order still if I didn't miss anything. So the losses might be few. They will more likely fall prey to the Allied airstrikes. Now that I mention that, the Allies could bomb the shit out of the retreating army on the Olympus passes. they are very narrow and some bombed road ahead could create huge bottlenecks that might spell disaster. Or am I losing something here?
 
How is the planning of the landings in France and Sicily going so far?

Sicily still makes sense to push the luftwaffe and the Regia aeronautica away from North Africa and open/secure the Sicily straits for shipping, I guess. But since the Americans were quite reluctant to invade Italy, and there is already a good foothold in the Balkans with the Greek front drawing in a large number of Italian and German forces, I guess the Allies will instead go straight to focusing on the landing in northern France after Sicily.
I won't make any comments on Allied plans. I will only note that overall neither the Germans nor the Italians have committed in the Near East more divisions than in OTL so far... well with the significant exception that several of the divisions they sent to die off in Tunisia in OTL are instead available here due to the earlier Allied victory in North Africa. Of course bo the German and Italian formations are starting to suffer a lot more attrition than in OTL.
This would significantly extend the front line from what it is now only a rather short line in difficult terrain to hundreds of kilometers.
In theory the Germans could still find the forces to launch a large scale offensive in the Balkans. Of course to do so at a minimum they would need to stay in the defensive in the Eastern Front...
Indeed, but it will also put the port within striking distance of Luftwaffe bases in Bulgaria and Yugoslavia.
The Allies by this point have air superiority, but we are not talking late 1944 levels here, the air is still heavily contested.
With the better allied shipping situation and no Torch, I'm surprised there was no push by the US to get more boots on the ground in 1942 even if sledgehammer is still not quite feasible.
That I did not show it does not mean there wasn't. But I don't think it would be any more successful than OTL. The British will still be heavily opposed to Sledgehammer and while the Allied shipping situation is better in absolute terms the also need to keep Greece and the Syrian front supplied.
The safest bet in war, is that your offensive will always be slower than you hope. The Olympus line is a strong defensive position, and the only reason the Greek Army broke through in 1912 was because the Ottomans had posted inadequate forces there. There was fighting unlike the common modern Turkish myth that Thessaloniki fell without a shot fired (Elasson, Sarantaporos/Kirkgecherit, Yannitsa/Yenice) but the army under Hasan Tashin Pasha was both severely outnumbered, and of lower quality.
Not entirely certain who on the Greek side thought throwing 90% of the Greek army on the Olympus, but it was not the obvious thing to do and oddly enough nobody claimed post war it was his idea...

I do not see this being the case here. Sure the WAllies have better quality and morale, but there are enough forces to hold all the passes.
And air superiority , and more armour and more artillery but still if the German-Italian-Bulgarian army is not bagged in the Thessalian plan, the Olympus will be very difficult to break. Add to this we are getting into December with heavy snow in the mountain passes a given...
I wonder what sort of casualties the Bulgarians had during their retrat through Thessaly. They are not motorized and had to deal with armoured columns in a fat plain. How many divisions had before and how many divisions were bagged, destroyed or suffered moderate losses. Not to mention that to pull back they would have had to abandon a great percentage of their heavy equipment.
The battle is not over yet so no comments, over total casualties. I'll only say that by the point of the last post they are in excess of 30,000.
They could bomb the passes thru the Olympus but the then how the will get thru them after?
The logical plan for the Axis is to try to hold the passes not leave them to the Allies without a fight...
 
I won't make any comments on Allied plans. I will only note that overall neither the Germans nor the Italians have committed in the Near East more divisions than in OTL so far... well with the significant exception that several of the divisions they sent to die off in Tunisia in OTL are instead available here due to the earlier Allied victory in North Africa. Of course bo the German and Italian formations are starting to suffer a lot more attrition than in OTL.
Including Greece and the Balkans ? Even if they have the same amount as OTL, they did not have to guard the Balkans against more than half a million soldiers and their complement of tanks and airplanes solidly entrenched in Greece and threatening a breakout.
 
Including Greece and the Balkans ? Even if they have the same amount as OTL, they did not have to guard the Balkans against more than half a million soldiers and their complement of tanks and airplanes solidly entrenched in Greece and threatening a breakout.
Including Greece. This has meant of course that a lot of troops on occupation duty in OTL are in the frontline instead, which in turn means someone got to cover that slack. How is that accomplished? In part you need fewer troops on occupation duty in Greece, in OTL you had something in the order of 140-180,000 Italians, about 100-120,000 Germans and 40,000 Bulgarians there, by 1944 from memory the Germans were up to about 275,000. TTL they occupy only northern Greece so no garrisons for Athens, Crete, Southern Greece or any of the islands. Second by securing full Bulgarian commitment to the war. By 1944 the Bulgarian army was 455,000 men but only a small fraction of it had been committed to the occupation of either Greece or Yugoslavia. Here the Bulgarian army is fully committed, Serbia is for the most part occupied by them, there are ~240,000 Bulgarians on occupation duties taking the place of Germans and Italians and a Bulgarian army of ~210,000 in Thessaly. Of course this has come at the cost of giving Bulgaria all her territorial ambitions against Greece and Yugoslavia unlike OTL. Third an earlier expansion of NDH forces.

All that said in November 1942 there have been something 21 Italian and 6 German divisions that in OTL were fighting partisans and in TTL have been fighting the Western Allies and the Soviets. This has not been exactly conductive to their ration strength...
 
Part 110
Naples, December 6th, 1942

Anti-aircraft fire rose to the sky but despite the Italian gunners best efforts, the USAAF bombers went on attacking their targets, compared to the skies over Germany the Italian mainland was distinctly less dangerous. The Americans had not attacked the Italian mainland before. Now that the start had been made...

Southeast Anatolia, December 8th, 1942

The Turkish southern front finally stabilised on a line from the south of Maras to Adiyaman to the heights west and south of Diyarbakir. Slim and De Lattre would continue probing it for the two next weeks but for every practical purpose Operation Melisende, the battle of Antep was over. Nearly 96,000 Turkish and over 23,000 German soldiers had been lost in the great encirclement of Antep and the battles that had followed. The had not sold themselves out cheaply, Allied casualties in two months of fighting had been close to 27,000 men and over 350 tanks but this still did not make the battle anything less than a disaster. At least Cakmak could console himself that the terrain of the new line made it difficult to break, while the Allies would need quite a bit of time to rebuild their armies and supply lines to resume the offensive.

Elasson, December 11th, 1942

it was heavily snowing. This did not stop the Poles, backed by a British tank regiment from attacking. The recently arrived German units, odds and end formed into a division under Hasso Manteuffel held out. The Poles, and Greeks and French and Americans and everyone else in the polyglot Allied army, would be back again. The Bulgarians and Italians had lost over 70,000 men so far. Tens of thousands more had been left behind in pockets of various sizes in Thessaly as their comrades hastily retreated north. Were they disorganized enough for the Allies to carry the Olympus passes? It was worth the try...

West of Stalingrad, December 13th, 1942

Erich von Manstein launched his attempt to relieve the German and Romanian forces encircled in Stalingrad. The Soviets, surprised, would lose some ground but continue fighting hard. Soon general Malinovsky's 2nd Guards Army would bring the advance to a halt.

Bizani, Epirus, December 14th, 1942

The Greeks kept pushing forward at a snails pace. The Italian line and with it Ioannina. It would be some time before the Greeks managed to liberate it. In the meantime casualties kept mounting...

Don river, December 16th, 1942

Operation Saturn had to be altered to Little Saturn after the German attempt to relieve Stalingrad. This was little consolation to the soldiers of the Italian 8th army that struggled to hold back the attack...
 
Hmm so Italy is being attacked now along with Greece but the Germans are spread more thin while the Greeks get bogged down in the Epirus front.

Well if the WAllies get to the Olympus passes they'd be in a great position even if Thessaloniki is not tenable at this point.
 
I guess it would be quite difficult for the Turks to replace the equipment lost with these surrounded formations. It is the equivalent of 6 divisions, that correspond to 1/7th- 1/6th of the total OOB. Considering the heavy attrition suffered at other fronts as well, Turkey must be basically out of reserves, or at least reserves that are trained and have heavy equipment.
 
So the Turkish army is badly mauled again. Here I wonder will the Allied commanders try a Cilician offensive? that could be a big morale hit for the Turks as well as force them to fight on flat planes, if the mountain passes fall first granted.

I am kind of anxious with all the Greek casualties. They might be around the same number as the Turks? Am I that off? I remember somethin along 130k but that was a while ago before the Epirus offensive. At least the Thessaly offensive is a big success and it has cost the Axis a lot of heavy equipment, mainly on Bulgaria's side which will find it harder to replace than the other two. Now the snow and the airforce could do their attrition if the Allies just leave the Axis on Ellassona.
 
I am kind of anxious with all the Greek casualties. They might be around the same number as the Turks? Am I that off? I remember somethin along 130k but that was a while ago before the Epirus offensive. At least the Thessaly offensive is a big success and it has cost the Axis a lot of heavy equipment, mainly on Bulgaria's side which will find it harder to replace than the other two. Now the snow and the airforce could do their attrition if the Allies just leave the Axis on Ellassona.
I think currently it's more than the Turks but the next few offensives will ensure the Turks get much more casualties.
 
I think currently it's more than the Turks but the next few offensives will ensure the Turks get much more casualties.
Here it would count if the Turkish casualties include POW or not. I have the impression that most of the Greek casualties are fatalities or injured due to more controlled retreats while the Turks have on many occasions being chased and probably gotten captured. That though excludes the Caucasus campaign and the Smyrna siege which had a lot of Turkish casualties. Still I would want a refreshment of casualties from the author if it's on hand or an approximation to see how the two sides are related.
 
I guess it would be quite difficult for the Turks to replace the equipment lost with these surrounded formations. It is the equivalent of 6 divisions, that correspond to 1/7th- 1/6th of the total OOB. Considering the heavy attrition suffered at other fronts as well, Turkey must be basically out of reserves, or at least reserves that are trained and have heavy equipment.
Turkey has been receiving new equipment (or captured Soviet and French stuff but one cannot be picky) from Germany. Not as much as it would like but more than what t1he Romanians were getting. In part that's due to the all important chrome exports, in part duets Hitler and the Nazis having just like OTL a case of severe hero worship on Kemal and his nationalists which the Turkish government is anything but shy to exploit for all it is worth. What does it mean in practical terms? The Turkish army has 786,000 men on active duty in the end of 1942 down from 820,000 in the end of 1941. Manpower wise if the arms and logistics were there they could be fielding twice as many men or more.

So the Turkish army is badly mauled again. Here I wonder will the Allied commanders try a Cilician offensive? that could be a big morale hit for the Turks as well as force them to fight on flat planes, if the mountain passes fall first granted.
Not certain if again is entirely correct here. Sure the Turkish army has had its share of failed offensives. But this has been its first defeat on that scale in the war.
I am kind of anxious with all the Greek casualties. They might be around the same number as the Turks? Am I that off? I remember somethin along 130k but that was a while ago before the Epirus offensive.
They lost 250,000 men in 1941. 1942 cost much less, about 36,000 men as till taking the offensive the Greek fronts were mostly quiet. They have 433,000 men on active duty with the army at year's end. Turkish casualties are nearing 530,000 by comparison, 263,000 lost in 1942.
At least the Thessaly offensive is a big success and it has cost the Axis a lot of heavy equipment, mainly on Bulgaria's side which will find it harder to replace than the other two.
casualties have been about evenly split between the Italians and Bulgarians.
Now the snow and the airforce could do their attrition if the Allies just leave the Axis on Ellassona.
But this also means leaving the Axis in Macedonia...
 
Do you mind if I borrow your map as a template to make my own?
If you want a template all I did was take the world map with provinces and snip the part of interest. If you go to the maps section of the site the original template will likely be available without all the inconvenient colouring.
 
If you want a template all I did was take the world map with provinces and snip the part of interest. If you go to the maps section of the site the original template will likely be available without all the inconvenient colouring.
Thanks for telling me 😃
 
Part 111
Mamon, Russia, December 19th, 1942

The two defending Italian divisions were forced to retreat from superior Soviet forces after four days of heavy fighting. The Italians were once more fighting far harder than they would be given credit for but this was not enough to hold back the Soviets. Within a week 130,000 Italian soldiers would end encircled...

Don river, December 23rd, 1942


Marshall Von Manstein ordered his panzers to switch from attacking towards Stalingrad to trying to hold back the continuing Soviet attacks on his flank that were gaining ground against the Italian and Hungarian forces covering it. The German attempt to relieve Stalingrad was over in failure.

Elasson, December 26th, 1942


The Allies had pressed on their attacks for two weeks before Pangalos had finally accepted that his forces were not going to break through the Olympus. Rommel had been congratulated by Hitler, Mussolini and the Bulgarian regents for his defensive success but the Axis had little to be happy about. In six weeks their armies had lost all of Thessaly and about 121.000 men for less than a third as many Allied casualties. At least the winter, made a renewed offensive in Olympus unlikely as the passes would be covered with snow...

Barents sea, December 31st, 1942


Following the battle of Svalbard back in March and the loss of Gneisenau it had taken the Germans nearly nine months to risk their few remaining capital ships to action, sending out the heavy cruisers Admiral Graf Spee and Admiral Scheer escorted by six destroyers to attack convoy JW 51B which was carrying to the Soviet Union 202 tanks, 120 aircraft, over 2,000 vehicles and 76,000t of fuel and supplies to the Soviet Union. The operation had not gone well for the Germans. Even though the convoy was escorted only by 6 British destroyers and 2 corvettes and no heavy ships, the Royal Navy destroyers had driven back the Germans sinking one destroyer and damaging Admiral Graf Spee while none of the merchantmen they had been escorting had been even scratched. A furious Hitler would order scrapping the remaining heavy warships and when admiral Raeder offered his resignation in protest accept it and replace him by admiral Doenitz who would manage to change his mind. In the end the only effects of the order would be Raeder's replacement and that work on the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin, already 95% complete at the time would stop.

Athens, January 3rd, 1942


The participants in the conference from Pangalos and Wavell to Patton were in agreement. The Olympus line was too strongly held by the enemy to be broken by frontal assault in the middle of winter and any large scale amphibious operations in the Mediterranean would have to wait for spring and the decisions to be taken by their political supervisors on the course of the war, a conference at the highest level was coming at Casablanca in two weeks. But in the meantime there were in Thessaly more units than strictly needed for what was likely to be a static front. Within days the first units would be boarding ships from Piraeus...

Sivas, January 4th, 1942

Fevzi Cakmak poured himself another drink in the quiet of the night, anyone who had lived for years in the close cycle of Mustapha Kemal could be counted upon to hold his liquor well and need little sleep, as he contemplated the general situation. The defeat in the south had been painful but the southern front had stabilized and he didn't lack in available manpower, what he needed was more German arms to replace his casualties, after all that idiot Enver had squandered as many many in Sarikamis back in 1914 and the country had still fought on for 7 more years. His other fronts were stable. But the overall was situation was becoming worrying. It was clear the campaign to knock out Russia had failed and the situation in Stalingrad was at risk if the Germans failed to break the Soviet encirclement in time. The Anglosaxons were getting increasingly stronger as seen in Antep and Thessaly. Turkey was at this time still ahead of the game. But if the scales were starting to turn against its side...
 
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