WI/AHC: Megali Idea Fullfilled In The 1800's (1880 being the latest limit)

But in a event of a Greek Rebellion, i dont think the Bulgarians would be quiet. They gotta be try their own shot imho.

I see.

Not sure how plausible the following is though more or less looking to establish a situation where an ATL less successful Bulgaria ends up being composed mostly of Northern Bulgaria / Moesia and the northern part of North Macedonia as well as part of Eastern Rumelia like Burgas, Sliven and Yambol (so it still shares a border with the Ottomans), making it weak enough for ATL Bulgaria to likely end up being merged with Serbia in this scenario as was reputedly proposed in the 1860s (?) upon shaking off the Ottoman yoke in OTL or at least later on becomes a constituent part of an ATL post-WW1 Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

In addition to Northern Epirius and the southern part of Northern Macedonia, envision the ATL Greek gains in Southern Bulgaria / Eastern Rumelia being from Blagoevgrad to Stara Zagora and Haskovo.
 
I see.

Not sure how plausible the following is though more or less looking to establish a situation where an ATL less successful Bulgaria ends up being composed mostly of Northern Bulgaria / Moesia and the northern part of North Macedonia as well as part of Eastern Rumelia like Burgas, Sliven and Yambol (so it still shares a border with the Ottomans), making it weak enough for ATL Bulgaria to likely end up being merged with Serbia in this scenario as was reputedly proposed in the 1860s (?) upon shaking off the Ottoman yoke in OTL or at least later on becomes a constituent part of an ATL post-WW1 Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

In addition to Northern Epirius and the southern part of Northern Macedonia, envision the ATL Greek gains in Southern Bulgaria / Eastern Rumelia being from Blagoevgrad to Stara Zagora and Haskovo.
And Greece/Second Byzie might also got bad relations with the Bulgarians i think
 
And Greece/Second Byzie might also got bad relations with the Bulgarians i think

Probably though imagine a merged Serbia/ATL Bulgaria being more concerned about the threat from both Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans later on in an ATL WW1, where any differences they might have with ATL Greece are temporarily put aside.

A weakened ATL Bulgaria that becomes part of Serbia would potentially butterfly away both OTL Bulgaria's role in their dissolution of the Balkan League as well as their Central Power involvement in WW1.

That in turn would allow a merged Serbia/ATL Bulgaria* to focus on Austria-Hungary during WW1 followed by becoming an ATL Kingdom of Yugoslavia, while the ATL Greeks focus their attention on the Ottomans during WW1 and allow them to achieve some form of the Megali Idea.
 
Probably though imagine a merged Serbia/ATL Bulgaria being more concerned about the threat from both Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans later on in an ATL WW1, where any differences they might have with ATL Greece are temporarily put aside.

A weakened ATL Bulgaria that becomes part of Serbia would potentially butterfly away both OTL Bulgaria's role in their dissolution of the Balkan League as well as their Central Power involvement in WW1.

That in turn would allow a merged Serbia/ATL Bulgaria* to focus on Austria-Hungary during WW1 followed by becoming an ATL Kingdom of Yugoslavia, while the ATL Greeks focus their attention on the Ottomans during WW1 and allow them to achieve some form of the Megali Idea.
In a sense, an upcoming Germanic screw? Like Its a Slavic wank at this rate?
 
In a sense, an upcoming Germanic screw? Like Its a Slavic wank at this rate?

Somewhat a South Slavic wank in the sense that even a reduced ATL Bulgaria (composed of Northern Bulgaria and part of Eastern Rumelia) that is merged with Serbia and later part of an ATL Kingdom of Yugoslavia would still give them access to the Black Sea at minimum

A post-WW1 scenario of a slightly wanked Kingdom of Yugoslavia (with access to the Black Sea) and Greater Greece might make some form of ATL Intermarium or Little Entente (plus Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia and Poland) more appealing if still relatively remote.
 
Somewhat a South Slavic wank in the sense that even a reduced ATL Bulgaria (composed of Northern Bulgaria and part of Eastern Rumelia) that is merged with Serbia and later part of an ATL Kingdom of Yugoslavia would still give them access to the Black Sea at minimum

A post-WW1 scenario of a slightly wanked Kingdom of Yugoslavia (with access to the Black Sea) and Greater Greece might make some form of ATL Intermarium or Little Entente (plus Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia and Poland) more appealing if still relatively remote.
Now the main question is. Before 1900 kicks in, will Greece expand further?

Second, what could be the new Greek society in this case?
 
Now the main question is. Before 1900 kicks in, will Greece expand further?

Second, what could be the new Greek society in this case?

Cannot say, perhaps the additional territories in Northern Epirus, southern North Macedonia and parts of OTL Southern Bulgaria / East Rumelia would have slightly improved things for ATL Greece compared to OTL?

Am more interested placing the Greeks in a more favorable position before 1900 compared to OTL whilst putting off the collapse of the Ottomans until WW1, where a still weakened ATL Ottomans experience more permanent and devastating territorial losses.

A post-WW1 Greece that successfully capitalize on its earlier pre-1900 success to achieve the Megali idea would be of significantly more strategic importance as well as a possible place for White Russian émigrés to relocate to.
 
Cannot say, perhaps the additional territories in Northern Epirus, southern North Macedonia and parts of OTL Southern Bulgaria / East Rumelia would have slightly improved things for ATL Greece compared to OTL?

Am more interested placing the Greeks in a more favorable position before 1900 compared to OTL whilst putting off the collapse of the Ottomans until WW1, where a still weakened ATL Ottomans experience more permanent and devastating territorial losses.

A post-WW1 Greece that successfully capitalize on its earlier pre-1900 success to achieve the Megali idea would be of significantly more strategic importance as well as a possible place for White Russian émigrés to relocate to.
Tbh an even earlier Arab revolt could happen if the Greeks gone mad.

Also..
I kinda see Greece there could be a hotbed of Nationalism.

Also, i kinda see Cyprus being taken haha
 
I think it's impossible within 1880. It was possible in 1919-23 but within 1880. Impossible. During this time the British were still firmly on the side of the Ottomans as a deterrent against Russia. Why would Britain give up the turks and their relatively for the time modern and professional army and the third largest navy on the planet for Greece? Even with the entirety of the Megali idea ambitions, the Greeks would first have to fight a long protracted insurgency against the ethnic Turks, because the Greeks weren't kind to Turks as shown by the Ottoman ethnic cleansing during 1919-23. Plus, even a Megali Greek state would never reach the level of industrialization, population and military strong enough like the Turks had to deter Russia during the Great Game, this is assuming the Turks don't destroy much of their infrastructure along the way and during insurgency attempts. The Muslim world would be in an uproar over the toppling of the Caliph and you could very well see the ISIS, Hezbollah being formed like 100 years ago, or at least some kind of proto-organization. Muslims in British India would be very upset over the British role in toppling the Caliph and that was the last thing Britain wanted just a few decades after the 1857 rebellion which was fresh in their minds. Besides, not only Turks, but ethnic Bulgarians, Armenians (In the Pontus region), and Albanians would actually aid the Turks in any kind of insurgency because for the them, it would be like throwing one ruler for another. Except the second ruler is more weak and likely to fall to Russia which believe me was the last thing each of these ethnicities wanted.
So yeah there is no way Britain would support this in the 19th century. It would be going against the entire Great Game foreign policy and mentality Britain had so carefully nurtured after the fall of Napoleon.
 
I think it's impossible within 1880. It was possible in 1919-23 but within 1880. Impossible. During this time the British were still firmly on the side of the Ottomans as a deterrent against Russia. Why would Britain give up the turks and their relatively for the time modern and professional army and the third largest navy on the planet for Greece? Even with the entirety of the Megali idea ambitions, the Greeks would first have to fight a long protracted insurgency against the ethnic Turks, because the Greeks weren't kind to Turks as shown by the Ottoman ethnic cleansing during 1919-23. Plus, even a Megali Greek state would never reach the level of industrialization, population and military strong enough like the Turks had to deter Russia during the Great Game, this is assuming the Turks don't destroy much of their infrastructure along the way and during insurgency attempts. The Muslim world would be in an uproar over the toppling of the Caliph and you could very well see the ISIS, Hezbollah being formed like 100 years ago, or at least some kind of proto-organization. Muslims in British India would be very upset over the British role in toppling the Caliph and that was the last thing Britain wanted just a few decades after the 1857 rebellion which was fresh in their minds. Besides, not only Turks, but ethnic Bulgarians, Armenians (In the Pontus region), and Albanians would actually aid the Turks in any kind of insurgency because for the them, it would be like throwing one ruler for another. Except the second ruler is more weak and likely to fall to Russia which believe me was the last thing each of these ethnicities wanted.
So yeah there is no way Britain would support this in the 19th century. It would be going against the entire Great Game foreign policy and mentality Britain had so carefully nurtured after the fall of Napoleon.
Wait.
So..ASB?
 
Now the main question is. Before 1900 kicks in, will Greece expand further?

Second, what could be the new Greek society in this case?
up until 1900 assuming a greek plan pod starting in the late 1700s or early 1800's the Neobyzantine Empire/greeks might be able to successfully sweep up greek communities in southern Anatolia on top of their previously discussed nothern acquisitions
1590707543865.png

post-1900 there is enough minority populations (both ethnically and religiously) on the lavant coast using modern-day maps (pictured bottom left) that if the greeks hug the coast they can play the populations off of each other keeping regions from being able to agree on even independence referendums by ethnically gerrymandering states in order to keep them mixed as apposed to being ethnically united, which might potentially work as far down as Lebanon (which was over 2/3 Christan at least up until 1932 based off of the religious demographics page for Christians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Lebanon). Even in modern times, areas like Mount Lebanon Governorate are still remarkably 85% Christian today according to the region's wiki page, pictured bottom right). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Lebanon_Governorate.
1590707852095.png
1590710645164.png
 
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up until 1900 assuming a greek plan pod starting in the late 1700s or early 1800's the Neobyzantine Empire/greeks might be able to successfully sweep up greek communities in southern Anatolia on top of their previously discussed nothern acquisitions
View attachment 552152
post-1900 there is enough minority populations (both ethnically and religiously) on the lavant coast using modern-day maps (pictured bottom left) that if the greeks hug the coast they can play the populations off of each other keeping regions from being able to agree on even independence referendums by ethnically gerrymandering states in order to keep them mixed as apposed to being ethnically united, which might potentially work as far down as Lebanon (which was over 2/3 Christan at least up until 1932 based off of the religious demographics page for Christians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Lebanon). Even in modern times, areas like Mount Lebanon Governorate are still remarkably 85% Christian today according to the region's wiki page, pictured bottom right). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Lebanon_Governorate.
View attachment 552155View attachment 552169
Uh no, they couldn't. Before 1821 all greek rebellions were not nationalistic in nature, but regarding the economy, tax and religion. Nationalism had no basis in them. The 1821 rebellion also succeeded because the Turks were bankrupt after fighting the Russians and French. After the rebellion, good luck on having Britain give up their number one bulwark against Russia.
 
As the title explains..

What is the repercussions of a fall of the Ottoman Empire that early, and a fullfillment of the Megali Idea on those dates?
How early/late it could happen?
And how it could happen exactly?

Thank you...
The POD for this requires something completely different from otl' Europe of the Early 19th Century. After the Napoleonic Wars, the Coalition allies signed a pact that they would keep the peace as a commitment to keeping the balance of power for 20 Years. Russia and Austria took this seriously, as they avoided striking at the Ottomans when they were badly weakened. The Egyptian revolt would have been one such opportunity for this.

And as others have already pointed out, most of the initial Balkan revolts were over the issues of taxation and autonomy. Greece after it attained its independence was a very poor state. Greece, especially without Thrace and Makedonia is in a dire economic position. Bulgaria had much of the industrial resources in the Balkans. Plus the Eastern Roman Empire derived its wealth from the Black Sea trade and its holding in Anatolia where much of its wealth and manpower was. Greece also after its independence, was heavily saddled with massive amounts of debt that essentially crippled it.

Greece realizing its irridentist claims requires a POD that stems from something completely different from otl's Europe and Greek Revolution. It would likely have to be accomplished through a successful Napoleonic France (First Empire not the Second Empire) for this to work. Though this requires Napoleon to restrain his ambition, which he had shown he was capable of doing. Napoleon after all initially wasn't a champion of Polish independence, and sought to forge an alliance with Tsar Alexander. The two had a bit of camaraderie going at Tilsit, leading many to speculate that Britain's worst nightmare, a Franco-Russian Alliance was about to be solidified. This almost happened in otl, but Talleyrand started sabotaging Napoleon. Supposing Napoleon does manage to arrange for this more concrete Franco-Russian alliance he'd likely have to take Russia's interests into mind. Austria here would be in a panic as its now sandwiched between Napoleonic France and the Russian Empire. Though if Tsar Alexander with his mother's influence declines Napoleon's attempts marry Grand Duchess Olga, the Tsar's sister, the Habsburgs could very well try to save themselves like in otl by arranging a marriage between Napoleon and Marie Louise. This would be a Prussia screw most likely, as Prussia would likely be forced to cede Silesia to Austria. Napoleon here would also would likely keep Austria around as a willing economic and military partner perhaps as a counterbalance to Russia.

If Napoleon doesn't embark on his Penninsular Campaign, he could very well work with Russia, Austria, and Prussia to Partition the Balkans. Through this way Greater Greece could be realized. Austria likely gains dominion over the Western Balkans restoring Croatia's historic boundaries while also vassalizing Serbia as a new Kingdom centered in Belgrade. They have historic claims to the regions, as they had once captured it in the 18th century wars against the Ottomans. I could see Bulgaria being restored and placed under the Russian Sphere. Wallachia though would likley be an Austrian vassal while Molodovia would be likely annexed by Russia. Greece here could emerge with France and Russia supporting it.

The Ottomans almost could have collapsed in the early 1800's as the Jannisaries in a revolt, and palace coup, nearly wiped out the Ottoman Royal House of Osmangolu leaving it with only one man (Sultan Mahmoud). If Mahmoud is killed off, this could very well spark a massive civil war. Though the Girays might try to take the throne as they are closely related to the Ottomans. The French, Austrians, and Russians could pounce on the Ottomans in its weakness with the situation mirroring the Partition of Poland following the Deluge. This way, Tsar Alexander dusts off his grandmother Catherine the Great's plan of restoring the Byzantine Empire. She had after all intended for her other Grandson, Grand Duke Constantine to take its throne. Though France and Austira would want the crowns to be separate like the Crowns of Italy and the French Empire proper. Thus Kingdom would be in a personal union with Russia with a new Romanov Basileus at its helm. Thus the new Third Rome actually realizes its claim by retaking Constantinople. Through the Caucuses, Russia could likely partition the Ottoman Empire setting up client states in the Caucuses. Trebizond and Pontus along with the other Western Portions of Anatolia would go to this new Byzantine Empire with a Turkish rump state being kept in the interior.

Napoleon likely seizes and vasssalizes North Africa and the levant as well. Thus a new European order in Europe would be created. The new Caesar Napoleon would rule the West, while the Austria rules the Danube, and the new Eastern Basileus rules in Constantinople which has been retaken into the hands of Orthodox Christianity.

Britain will likely have a panic over this and would likely try to support the Ottomans to prevent such a massive alliance from threatening it.
 
The POD for this requires something completely different from otl' Europe of the Early 19th Century. After the Napoleonic Wars, the Coalition allies signed a pact that they would keep the peace as a commitment to keeping the balance of power for 20 Years. Russia and Austria took this seriously, as they avoided striking at the Ottomans when they were badly weakened. The Egyptian revolt would have been one such opportunity for this.

And as others have already pointed out, most of the initial Balkan revolts were over the issues of taxation and autonomy. Greece after it attained its independence was a very poor state. Greece, especially without Thrace and Makedonia is in a dire economic position. Bulgaria had much of the industrial resources in the Balkans. Plus the Eastern Roman Empire derived its wealth from the Black Sea trade and its holding in Anatolia where much of its wealth and manpower was. Greece also after its independence, was heavily saddled with massive amounts of debt that essentially crippled it.

Greece realizing its irridentist claims requires a POD that stems from something completely different from otl's Europe and Greek Revolution. It would likely have to be accomplished through a successful Napoleonic France (First Empire not the Second Empire) for this to work. Though this requires Napoleon to restrain his ambition, which he had shown he was capable of doing. Napoleon after all initially wasn't a champion of Polish independence, and sought to forge an alliance with Tsar Alexander. The two had a bit of camaraderie going at Tilsit, leading many to speculate that Britain's worst nightmare, a Franco-Russian Alliance was about to be solidified. This almost happened in otl, but Talleyrand started sabotaging Napoleon. Supposing Napoleon does manage to arrange for this more concrete Franco-Russian alliance he'd likely have to take Russia's interests into mind. Austria here would be in a panic as its now sandwiched between Napoleonic France and the Russian Empire. Though if Tsar Alexander with his mother's influence declines Napoleon's attempts marry Grand Duchess Olga, the Tsar's sister, the Habsburgs could very well try to save themselves like in otl by arranging a marriage between Napoleon and Marie Louise. This would be a Prussia screw most likely, as Prussia would likely be forced to cede Silesia to Austria. Napoleon here would also would likely keep Austria around as a willing economic and military partner perhaps as a counterbalance to Russia.

If Napoleon doesn't embark on his Penninsular Campaign, he could very well work with Russia, Austria, and Prussia to Partition the Balkans. Through this way Greater Greece could be realized. Austria likely gains dominion over the Western Balkans restoring Croatia's historic boundaries while also vassalizing Serbia as a new Kingdom centered in Belgrade. They have historic claims to the regions, as they had once captured it in the 18th century wars against the Ottomans. I could see Bulgaria being restored and placed under the Russian Sphere. Wallachia though would likley be an Austrian vassal while Molodovia would be likely annexed by Russia. Greece here could emerge with France and Russia supporting it.

The Ottomans almost could have collapsed in the early 1800's as the Jannisaries in a revolt, and palace coup, nearly wiped out the Ottoman Royal House of Osmangolu leaving it with only one man (Sultan Mahmoud). If Mahmoud is killed off, this could very well spark a massive civil war. Though the Girays might try to take the throne as they are closely related to the Ottomans. The French, Austrians, and Russians could pounce on the Ottomans in its weakness with the situation mirroring the Partition of Poland following the Deluge. This way, Tsar Alexander dusts off his grandmother Catherine the Great's plan of restoring the Byzantine Empire. She had after all intended for her other Grandson, Grand Duke Constantine to take its throne. Though France and Austira would want the crowns to be separate like the Crowns of Italy and the French Empire proper. Thus Kingdom would be in a personal union with Russia with a new Romanov Basileus at its helm. Thus the new Third Rome actually realizes its claim by retaking Constantinople. Through the Caucuses, Russia could likely partition the Ottoman Empire setting up client states in the Caucuses. Trebizond and Pontus along with the other Western Portions of Anatolia would go to this new Byzantine Empire with a Turkish rump state being kept in the interior.

Napoleon likely seizes and vasssalizes North Africa and the levant as well. Thus a new European order in Europe would be created. The new Caesar Napoleon would rule the West, while the Austria rules the Danube, and the new Eastern Basileus rules in Constantinople which has been retaken into the hands of Orthodox Christianity.

Britain will likely have a panic over this and would likely try to support the Ottomans to prevent such a massive alliance from threatening it.
I agree with this scenario. Unless you can do this a post-1827 after independence Megali Idea is bust on many levels
 
I agree with this scenario. Unless you can do this a post-1827 after independence Megali Idea is bust on many levels
There's also the issue of the sizable Turkish minority that Greece now has to deal with. They would not be happy being under Greek rule. This likely means that Greece would find itslef in a large scale guerrilla war perhaps. Even if Greece took Constantinople like the wanted, the city itself had a larger population than Greece itself. Because Greece proper is quite economically poor and unable to sustain large populations compared to other Nations like say Italy or France, it would be highly dependent on the support of a Great Power. In otl during the Greco-Turkish War Greece was punching well above its weight, and after France pulled its support, its whole war effort collapsed like a House of Cards.

In my scenario, with three Great Powers attacking the Ottomans on all sides much like what happened with Poland, there's little chance it could resist especially in the 19th Century when rebellions were rife cutting off the Otomans from strategically important regions like Egypt. This disaray of the Central Government would also make drawing up resources from the rest of the Empire quite arduous. Plus even if they were supported by Britain, a large full-scale land war against Russia, Austria, and Imperial France would be very unpopular and undesirable as well. Britain could at best provide naval, monetary, and logistical support which would likely prolong the war, but it wouldn't be enough to save the Ottomans.
 
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