The Whale has Wings

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hello Astrodragon,

There won't be a third strike on PH - this would almost certainly mean ships running out of fuel, and if ANYTHING goes wrong, like the weather, a lot of ships... One of the reasons for the PH target was that it was thought to be safely out of range, and it very nearly was. Besides, CalBear will get annoyed with me...

Oh, I agree...unless you change the personnel involved (e.g., Nagumo), this decision is unlikely to change. He's too conservative to risk it.

Now, Yamamoto might be a little inspired by the FAA devastation of the Italian tank farm at Taranto to look into the question a little more closely...but the fact remains that the capital ships will remain the primary objective, and there are more of them at Pearl Harbor than the Italians had at Taranto, and likely to be better defended. Yamamoto in any event expected substantial losses on the operation.

I simply meant to say that I think it would have been worth doing, even if it cost a deck or two, and even leaving a few destroyers fuel-less along the way back. It's hard to fault Nagumo too heavily for being cautious about it. But it's clear that denying Pearl Harbor as an effective fleet base to the USN for the better part of a year would be worth, I think, a substantial price.

In the United States, the carrier USS Ticonderoga is launched. The last of the Yorktown class carriers, she has been built as fast as possible, considering the steadily worsening situation in Europe and the Far East, and the role aircraft carriers seem now to be playing. It is hoped to have her commissioned by next March. The first of the follow-on class of carriers, the USS Essex, is expected to be laid down next month.

Is Ticonderoga a butterfly? It's been so long since I read some of the earlier installments. I know Hornet was commissioned in late '41... Is this an extra (fourth) Yorktown, or Hornet renamed?
 

Garrison

Donor
So good to have you back Astrodragon, people tried to keep the lights on and a fire going for your return. :)

I think yes Rommel is being wildly ambitious but what choice does he have? The clear strategic objective has to be to drive the British out of the Middle East and that pretty much means Egypt and Suez. Not to mention such a victory might be the only thing that can prop up Mussolini.
As for the Far East that all makes sense, the actors there either lack the means or the will to radically change their plans or available forces in response to British changes.
 
So good to have you back Astrodragon, people tried to keep the lights on and a fire going for your return. :)

I think yes Rommel is being wildly ambitious but what choice does he have? The clear strategic objective has to be to drive the British out of the Middle East and that pretty much means Egypt and Suez. Not to mention such a victory might be the only thing that can prop up Mussolini.
As for the Far East that all makes sense, the actors there either lack the means or the will to radically change their plans or available forces in response to British changes.


Rommel is a risk (big ones) taker but is not stupid.
 

Garrison

Donor
Rommel is a risk (big ones) taker but is not stupid.

Well no but he may be trying to drum up support in Berlin to get the resources he needs to even get as far as Tripoli. Suez strikes me as the kind of big idea that Hitler would latch onto. Whether Rommel really thinks its possible is another matter.
 
A lot of the risks Rommel took in the desert werent as risky as everyone on the Empire side thought at the time. It really helps if your reading your enemies mail via the US embassy codes. Without the info Rommel was getting from B Dienst he might not have been so lucky or so daring.
 
Nice one Astro like the Ram tank. Will the 6 pdr get bored out for 75mm ammo as OTL.

Oh and dont let yourself get diverted by snidey comments from certain negative people we have all missed the updates for the last week :D

It will probably stay as the 6-pdr for quite a while.
The French having the money to fund some tanks will have an effect on the British tank program, the Ram (or whatever I decide to call it :) being the first...
 
It will probably stay as the 6-pdr for quite a while.
The French having the money to fund some tanks will have an effect on the British tank program, the Ram (or whatever I decide to call it :) being the first...


Earlier 17pounder and Comets?

I mean imagine, one Regiment per Division equipped with Comets after D-Day...


As for Rommel: Again, long-term strategic is fine. OTL he nearly did it if not for the 8th Army and piss-poor logistics (which includes Malta, convoys and the Royal Navy.).
 
A lot of the risks Rommel took in the desert werent as risky as everyone on the Empire side thought at the time. It really helps if your reading your enemies mail via the US embassy codes. Without the info Rommel was getting from B Dienst he might not have been so lucky or so daring.

The Germans are still getting data as to the British deployments via the US embassy. However there is a snag for them; the Free French are rather running their own show in Tunisia, and arent nearly so interested in telling the USA everything they are up to...
 
Earlier 17pounder and Comets?

I mean imagine, one Regiment per Division equipped with Comets after D-Day...


As for Rommel: Again, long-term strategic is fine. OTL he nearly did it if not for the 8th Army and piss-poor logistics (which includes Malta, convoys and the Royal Navy.).

The 6-pdr is ahead of OTL due to the lack of the invasion panic. O'Connells victoty means he is well positioned to insist on what he wants in a tank, although the Britiah experience has rather overstated the value of armour.
We may yet see the 17-pdr Churchill in operation...
 
10th March


In what will be the only success of the entire offensive, the alpini of the Pusteria Division capture the fortified peak of Mali Spadarit, on the extreme left wing. However, this leaves them far in advance of any friendly troops, and heavy fire from adjacent Greek positions on their flanks and rear forces them to withdraw somewhat back down the slope. In Gambarra's sector, attempts to manoeuver against Monastery Hill get nowhere, and Gambarra already has to bring up troops from his reserve Bari Division to reinforce the Puglie and Cagliari.

The French battleship Richelieu arrives at Gibraltar with an escort of three French destroyers, having finished her repairs in the USA. In addition to repairing the damage she suffered during the invasion of Dakar, she has also been refitted with modern AA guns and had equipment modified to allow her to work more easily with the RN. She will be attached to Force H, whos current role is to harass and strike Italian shipping in the Mediterranean and conduct strikes on shore targets. Her arrival allows the Admiralty to send HMS Renown back to the UK for a refit, and to free up four destroyers for much-needed convoy escorts.


11th March


President Roosevelt this afternoon signs into law the Lend-Lease Bill, Public Law 11, 77th Congress. The bill passed both the House of Representatives and the Senate with large majorities. It seeks, as its congressional sponsors put it, to give "legislative form to the policy of making this country an Arsenal for the Democracies and seeks to carry out President Roosevelt's pledge to send these countries in ever-increasing numbers, ships, aeroplanes, tanks and guns." The bill empowers the President to lease to Britain munitions owned and paid for by the US government.

Debate on the bill was fierce, and its isolationist opponents in the Senate filibustered against it. On 6 March, however, Senator Walter George, the influential chairman of the Senate foreign relations committee, made a powerful speech in favour of its passage, arguing that "the collapse of the British Empire would mean chaos in this world." Two days later the bill was finally passed by the Senate - by 60 votes to 31.
Immediately after the bill was signed the US Army and Navy approved the export of the first material to be released under the terms of the act. Though what is involved is being kept secret for military reasons, it is believed that the first shipments will include 24 motor torpedo boats already ordered to British design which have been held up by the US attorney-general and will help to defend Britain against invasion.

Most of the material released today will go to Britain. Some will go to the Free French forces, Greece, and some to China. The president's assistant, Laughlin Currie, has been sent to determine what the Chinese need.

A few hours after the vote the president sent Congress a request for $7,000 million for munitions. The New York Times predicted that if American convoys are needed to deliver the products from the arsenal to the democracies, they will be sent.

There has been much discussion between the USA and Britain over the way the act will work, particularly with regard to items that Britain and the Free French n particular can still pay for, and the British in particular are unhappy about some of what they see as severely restrictive trade clauses. In the end a compromise is reached; since it is in practice impossible to distinguish the end use of war consumables such as ammunition and fuel, these items will be supplied to Britain with the agreement she will distribute these to the various allied forces in excile as well as use them herself in support of them. For capital items, Britain (and also the Free French) will continue to pay for items they wish, and can use these however they wish (the French, in view of the German occupation of their country, are rather less concerned about trade clauses). In practice, it is known to the US government that many items such as tanks and planes 'given' to the French and others will end up used by British forces, but the facade helps the bill gets passed. The US government is taking the practical approach that it is better to have Germany defeated than worry too much about trade clauses (and in fact is assuming that the British will have to sign them anyway in about a year when they estimate their money will run out)


12th March


In Hawaii, the Commander-in-Chief, U. S. Pacific Fleet, Admiral Kimmel, sends the following message to the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Stark: “In view of (your letter of 15 February), the Commander-in-Chief, U. S. Pacific Fleet, recommends that until a light efficient net, that can be laid temporarily and quickly is developed, no anti-torpedo nets (for protection against torpedo plane attacks) be supplied this area.”

The Australian government informs London that it expects the first production Beaufighters made in the country to become operational in October. Since the night fighter situation is easing in the UK, they ask for one, preferably two squadrons as soon as possible for pilot training and to develop tactics with the planes. The RAF was in fact hoping to use the first of its operational squadrons in the North Sea (against light German coastal shipping), and in the Mediterranean against light shipping. They suggest as a compromise that at least one squadron to be formed in the Med be from the RAAF, to give the necessary training.

The development of a Torpex warhead for the Navy's torpedoes is basically complete, and the first production units will be tested in May. They will be used on the new MkXV torpedo, initially on Beaufighters and Wellingtons, and on the Fairy Spearfish when it enters service later in the year. The torpedo can be fitted with attachments that allow it to be dropped at up to 225knots, and it hoped to develop these further to allow a drop at 300knots, to take advantage of the performance of the new planes. It has already been seen how vulnerable torpedo planes are against any sort of fighter defence, and the new torpedo will, it is hoped, make the attacks more survivable. The new, heavier torpedo will, with the more effective explosive, be nearly as destructive as a pre-war 21" submarine launched torpedo.

Two further Audacious class carriers are laid down, intended to be in service in 1944. The navy is currently examining the capability of the Audacious class against the expected further development of naval aircraft with a view to designing a new, larger ship to follow on from the Audacious. There has been opposition to so much of the navy's limited warship building going on the carriers rather than other heavy ships, but the FAA point out that apart from the fleet carriers, the other ships are intended for convoy duties, to work with the huge escort building program, and that in any case shortages of armour, fire-control equipment and heavy guns mean they simply cannot build any more cruisers or battleships at the present, so fleet carriers are the obvious alternative. By early 1942 they expect to have some 19 battleships and battlecruisers in service, and with the lack of capital ship opposition in home waters and the Mediterranean the need for additional battleships is reduced.

The US Navy announces that as a result of its increased production rate (instituted last year) the Grumman 4F Wildcat fighter will have replaced all the older Brewster Buffalo fighters in navy and marine service by June of this year. A number of the 'Martlet' version of the fighter are being used by the Free French in the Mediterranean and Africa (a version of this was offered to the RN but they decided it was inferior to the later models of the Goshawk fighter). As a result the US will expedite orders of the Buffalo to the exiled Dutch government (who want them for the DEI); the rest of the planes will be used for training or put into war reserve.


16th March


Two He111's of the German 10th Air Corps went on an armed reconnaissance mission during which they attacked units of the British Mediterranean Fleet west of Crete. Upon returning to base the crews report torpedo hits on two heavy naval vessels which they describe as battleships. This supposed success meant a substantial reduction in the Royal Navy's strength in the Mediterranean, so German leaders urge the Italian navy to get involved and to co-operate with the German attack on Greece that is planned for April 6, by sending their vessels forward into the eastern Mediterranean north and south of Crete. The Italians point out that the ships they are most worried about are the carriers, and the Luftwaffe seems to have missed these, but they will do what they can with the light forces available to them.

British convoys are still bringing units of the army into Greece and Crete. Priority has been given to take the New Zealand Division to Crete (as it is considered vital to protecting a line of retreat if needed), but the Australian formations are steadily growing in Greece itself. The defences of Crete itself are considered inadequate, and the New Zealanders are being used in an improvement program; this will take some time, especially as needed equipment such as AA guns is not available in the needed quantities.

The supply situation is made worse in Egypt due to mining raids on the Suez canal by German aircraft. As a result badly-needed supplies are unable to get ashore. The British solution is, almost bizarrely, to hang nets over the canal so they can at least, see where the mines land and deal with them.
 
In the United States, the carrier USS Ticonderoga is launched. The last of the Yorktown class carriers, she has been built as fast as possible, considering the steadily worsening situation in Europe and the Far East, and the role aircraft carriers seem now to be playing. It is hoped to have her commissioned by next March. The first of the follow-on class of carriers, the USS Essex, is expected to be laid down next month.

Is Ticonderoga a butterfly? It's been so long since I read some of the earlier installments. I know Hornet was commissioned in late '41... Is this an extra (fourth) Yorktown, or Hornet renamed?

Yes, the Tigonderoga is indeed a butterfly - the success of the FAA has managed to squeeze another carrier out of Congress, she should be ready in early 1942.
 
In Bone in Algeria, General Rommel, commanding the Afrika Korps, sends a message to the German High Command suggesting that it might be possible to go on the offensive before the hot weather begins. He suggests four objectives, (1) The occupation of Tunisia, (2) the re-occupation of Cyrenaica, (3) the occupation of northern Egypt, and (4) the capture of the Suez Canal. He proposes 8 May to begin the campaign, but points out he will need the rest of his division plus at least two good Italian divisions under his command. The report is greeted in Berlin with a certain amount of skepticism.
No thinking small for this man.
 

Garrison

Donor
10th March
Two He111's of the German 10th Air Corps went on an armed reconnaissance mission during which they attacked units of the British Mediterranean Fleet west of Crete. Upon returning to base the crews report torpedo hits on two heavy naval vessels which they describe as battleships. This supposed success meant a substantial reduction in the Royal Navy's strength in the Mediterranean, so German leaders urge the Italian navy to get involved and to co-operate with the German attack on Greece that is planned for April 6, by sending their vessels forward into the eastern Mediterranean north and south of Crete. The Italians point out that the ships they are most worried about are the carriers, and the Luftwaffe seems to have missed these, but they will do what they can with the light forces available to them.

Hmmm would it be possible that the He111 crews have been a little overoptimistic about their results and targets?

Oh and it looks like the US is better off strategically because of USS Ticonderoga and the more rapid deployment of the Wildcat but still in trouble tactically because they just can't see anyone attacking PH.
 
Hmmm would it be possible that the He111 crews have been a little overoptimistic about their results and targets?

Oh and it looks like the US is better off strategically because of USS Ticonderoga and the more rapid deployment of the Wildcat but still in trouble tactically because they just can't see anyone attacking PH.

The USN believed that PH was unattackable with a dedication that was truly admirable - if you were Japanese....:D:eek:
 
The first prototype of the Canadian-designed Ram tank is completed. this tank is based on the US M3 chassis, with a new turret designed large enough to take the new British 6-pdr AT gun (although the prototype only mounts the 2-pdr). The development has been funded jointly by Canada and France, who want the tank for the Armoured division they are currently training. Building the tank in Canada will allow easy access to the US components for the tank, and production is expected for August. The first batch will mount the 2-pdr if the 6-pdr is not available in sufficient quantities. The tank also interests the British army, who have supplied guns for a second 6-pdr prototype. General O'Connor has stressed the need for a new tank to include a bigger gun (to allow HE fire), and also that it must be reliable - his experience in the desert has shown that tanks that break down too frequently are of little use.
Yea Ram! It's almost criminal it never saw combat.
 

Hyperion

Banned
Yeah, I agree on the Ticonderoga, that is rather silly and weakens the timeline.

If that ship is ready now, the USS Hornet, CV-8, should already be good to go.

In OTL, USS Hornet wasn't fully ready for combat until spring of 1942. The Doolittle Raid was her very first mission even.

You really screwed up something bad with that and it needs explanation.
 
Yeah, I agree on the Ticonderoga, that is rather silly and weakens the timeline.

If that ship is ready now, the USS Hornet, CV-8, should already be good to go.

In OTL, USS Hornet wasn't fully ready for combat until spring of 1942. The Doolittle Raid was her very first mission even.

You really screwed up something bad with that and it needs explanation.

The Ticonderoga is launched, not ready.
Hornet will be a few months early, Ticonderoga should commission about March 1942.
Hornet comissioned Oct 41.
The USN is still taking a while to get from comissioning to operational, they are still at peace. You can do it quite a bit faster if you work up the air group in advance.
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top