Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
David Flin
Gone Fishin'
Testing and operating in the field for the first time are not the same thing.
Some quirks will be spotted - the gunner has to tip the driver out of his seat to reload, for example, would be something discovered early on. Other things, like that a cooling duct is too low and gets clogged up with mud, not so much.
Depends how thorough the testing is. The only issues likely to come up in the field are those which can't be tested for, so desert/jungle/tundra conditions, if testing only took place in Britain.
Regardless of how long the testing piece of string was, it took place more in Canada. Tank proving grounds are thin in the UK. All testing is thorough in theory. Loam mud isn't as sticky as clay mud. Gravel comes in different sizes. A four foot pool is not as deep as a four foot deep river. Besides they don't have time for much before gettiing these new builds on the boat to Scotland.
Regardless, the only surprises that should come up in the field are those you couldn't reasonably test for.
In peace time, maybe, except it happens anyway. In wartime when every development program is being rushed?
That was OTL, ITTL the Valiant received a fair amount of testing IIRC, and the A15 and A22 have not entered service, because they're still in testing.
31 July 1941. Kensington, London, England.
allanpcameron
Donor
31 July 1941. Kensington, London, England.
Brigadier William Fox-Pitt had led the Welsh and Irish Guards at Boulogne, and they had a great deal to be proud of. Holding the port as long as they did, slowed down the Germans, and gave the rest of the army a chance to get back from Dunkirk.
The 2nd Welsh Guards had suffered more, almost half their number had been left behind and taken prisoner. They, along with 2nd Irish Guards had now been given the task of retraining as Armoured Battalions. The Grenadier, Coldstream and Scots Guards were also facing having to retrain one of their Battalions to be part of the Guards Armoured Division.
Brigadier Fox-Pitt had retained command of 20th Guards Brigade which had been redesignated 5th Guards Armoured Brigade. This Brigade would consist of three Battalions (2nd Grenadier Guards, 1st Coldstream Guards, 2nd Irish Guards) who would become Armoured Battalions. The 1st Grenadier Guards, which included the King’s Company, the tallest Guardsmen, were to be the motorised infantry element of the Brigade.
The other Guards Armoured Brigade (6th) was commanded by Brigadier Allan Adair. The three Armoured Battalions would be created from 4th Grenadier Guards, 3rd Scots Guards and 2nd Welsh Guards. The 4th Coldstream Guards would provide the motorised infantry.
In addition to these two Armoured Brigades, the Guards Armoured Division would have the Guards Support Group, of which the 1st Welsh Guards would be the infantry Battalion. Command of the Support Group hadn’t yet been confirmed, but Brigadier Arnold Cazenove, whose 7th Guards Brigade was about to be split up, was already at the meeting called by Major General Oliver Leese.
Leese wanted to get as much of the griping out of the way. The Brigade of Guards considered themselves, with some reason, as the Elite of the British Infantry Regiments. The Battalions, like Fox-Pitt’s which had served in France and Flanders, had added more merit to their claims. The idea for a Guards Armoured Division, seemed to have originated from General Alan Brooke (C-in-C Home Forces). There had been rumblings of opposition to the idea, and the ‘Establishment’ had been aghast at the suggestion. Since Brooke’s background was from Anglo-Irish ancestry, and his commission was in the Royal Artillery, there was, among some, something of a ’he doesn’t quite understand’ kind of feeling.
The King had approved the plan, and so, whether they liked it or not, Leese had been given the task of making it happen. The transfer of the Battalions was due to take place in September, so Leese wanted to get his senior officers together to take the temperature and make sure everyone was up for the challenge.
Arnold Cazenove was the most vocal opponent of the situation. Less about the ‘rebranding’ as he called it, and more the fact that command of the Support Group, which was primarily an Artillery force, with just one infantry Battalion, wasn’t his strong point. He’d only just been given command of 7th Guards Brigade in August, after a time on the General Staff. To go from that to sorting out gunners, wasn’t something that he had any great desire to do.
Major-General Leese took note, and asked him, when the appointment came through to take it, and then Leese would do his best to get him an Infantry Brigade, once the dust settled and a suitable replacement could be found. Both Fox-Pitt and Adair were much more positive about the role they and their men were to undertake. Both of them had faced the German panzers, and both of them had seen the power of an armoured force. They both noted that cooperation between tanks and infantry, with artillery and air support, was a much bigger picture than simply leading an Infantry Battalion or Brigade.
Leese, Fox-Pitt and Adair had all visited Bovington where they had been led through the needs and capacity of a British Armoured Division. Their staffs had taken copious notes, and they’d agreed that they would need a lot of support from the Royal Tank Regiment. However, there was complete opposition to having to use the Cavalry designations of Squadron and Troop. The Guards’ Companies and Platoons had very particular histories that the Royal Armoured Corps could only dream of. The Household Cavalry Regiment would provide the Reconnaissance for the Guards Armoured Division. If the donkey-whallopers thought for a moment that the Guards would take on their names for things, they were very much mistaken. In this they had found some support from some of the men of the pre-war Royal Tank Corps, whose forced marriage with the Cavalry still rankled.
There was one thing that Leese had baulked at. When informed that his Division would be issued with A15 Cruiser tanks, the Major-General was very unhappy. As part of the visit to Bovington, Leese had been shown the tanks currently being used and entering production by the Army. He’d also, like the rest of the army, been following developments in North Africa very closely. The prototype of the Victor he’d been shown looked like a war winner, especially when it got the dual-purpose gun. The Valiant II* Cruiser with the 6-pdr gun would be good enough until the Victor came along. The A15 looked like a poor cousin in comparison. The brass at Bovington had been complimentary about it, at least, once the bugs were ironed out and there were enough 2-pdr guns for it. One of the Royal Tank Regiment officers had even suggested that the A15 would be a good starter tank for training, as the men would have plenty of experience of fixing broken things.
For Leese the question was to make sure that the Guardsmen who were having to retrain from being elite infantry felt that they were going to be the elite Armoured Division of the British army, and for that, Leese insisted on the best tanks. With all the rumblings around taking six of the finest Infantry Battalions in the world and putting them into tanks, what Leese wanted, General Brooke would do his best to secure.
For the rest of the meeting, the four men talked through their respective roles in putting together the training program. One of the biggest hurdles would simply be to train men as drivers, gunners, radio operators, mechanics. To train officers and NCOs with a whole new set of tactics and concerns. Later on, the Battalion Commanders, and the staff of Division and Brigade HQs, after lunch, would have a chance to talk through the issues they were concerned with, and how to plan creating an Armoured Division from scratch, the way the Guards would create an Armoured Division.
Brigadier William Fox-Pitt had led the Welsh and Irish Guards at Boulogne, and they had a great deal to be proud of. Holding the port as long as they did, slowed down the Germans, and gave the rest of the army a chance to get back from Dunkirk.
The 2nd Welsh Guards had suffered more, almost half their number had been left behind and taken prisoner. They, along with 2nd Irish Guards had now been given the task of retraining as Armoured Battalions. The Grenadier, Coldstream and Scots Guards were also facing having to retrain one of their Battalions to be part of the Guards Armoured Division.
Brigadier Fox-Pitt had retained command of 20th Guards Brigade which had been redesignated 5th Guards Armoured Brigade. This Brigade would consist of three Battalions (2nd Grenadier Guards, 1st Coldstream Guards, 2nd Irish Guards) who would become Armoured Battalions. The 1st Grenadier Guards, which included the King’s Company, the tallest Guardsmen, were to be the motorised infantry element of the Brigade.
The other Guards Armoured Brigade (6th) was commanded by Brigadier Allan Adair. The three Armoured Battalions would be created from 4th Grenadier Guards, 3rd Scots Guards and 2nd Welsh Guards. The 4th Coldstream Guards would provide the motorised infantry.
In addition to these two Armoured Brigades, the Guards Armoured Division would have the Guards Support Group, of which the 1st Welsh Guards would be the infantry Battalion. Command of the Support Group hadn’t yet been confirmed, but Brigadier Arnold Cazenove, whose 7th Guards Brigade was about to be split up, was already at the meeting called by Major General Oliver Leese.
Leese wanted to get as much of the griping out of the way. The Brigade of Guards considered themselves, with some reason, as the Elite of the British Infantry Regiments. The Battalions, like Fox-Pitt’s which had served in France and Flanders, had added more merit to their claims. The idea for a Guards Armoured Division, seemed to have originated from General Alan Brooke (C-in-C Home Forces). There had been rumblings of opposition to the idea, and the ‘Establishment’ had been aghast at the suggestion. Since Brooke’s background was from Anglo-Irish ancestry, and his commission was in the Royal Artillery, there was, among some, something of a ’he doesn’t quite understand’ kind of feeling.
The King had approved the plan, and so, whether they liked it or not, Leese had been given the task of making it happen. The transfer of the Battalions was due to take place in September, so Leese wanted to get his senior officers together to take the temperature and make sure everyone was up for the challenge.
Arnold Cazenove was the most vocal opponent of the situation. Less about the ‘rebranding’ as he called it, and more the fact that command of the Support Group, which was primarily an Artillery force, with just one infantry Battalion, wasn’t his strong point. He’d only just been given command of 7th Guards Brigade in August, after a time on the General Staff. To go from that to sorting out gunners, wasn’t something that he had any great desire to do.
Major-General Leese took note, and asked him, when the appointment came through to take it, and then Leese would do his best to get him an Infantry Brigade, once the dust settled and a suitable replacement could be found. Both Fox-Pitt and Adair were much more positive about the role they and their men were to undertake. Both of them had faced the German panzers, and both of them had seen the power of an armoured force. They both noted that cooperation between tanks and infantry, with artillery and air support, was a much bigger picture than simply leading an Infantry Battalion or Brigade.
Leese, Fox-Pitt and Adair had all visited Bovington where they had been led through the needs and capacity of a British Armoured Division. Their staffs had taken copious notes, and they’d agreed that they would need a lot of support from the Royal Tank Regiment. However, there was complete opposition to having to use the Cavalry designations of Squadron and Troop. The Guards’ Companies and Platoons had very particular histories that the Royal Armoured Corps could only dream of. The Household Cavalry Regiment would provide the Reconnaissance for the Guards Armoured Division. If the donkey-whallopers thought for a moment that the Guards would take on their names for things, they were very much mistaken. In this they had found some support from some of the men of the pre-war Royal Tank Corps, whose forced marriage with the Cavalry still rankled.
There was one thing that Leese had baulked at. When informed that his Division would be issued with A15 Cruiser tanks, the Major-General was very unhappy. As part of the visit to Bovington, Leese had been shown the tanks currently being used and entering production by the Army. He’d also, like the rest of the army, been following developments in North Africa very closely. The prototype of the Victor he’d been shown looked like a war winner, especially when it got the dual-purpose gun. The Valiant II* Cruiser with the 6-pdr gun would be good enough until the Victor came along. The A15 looked like a poor cousin in comparison. The brass at Bovington had been complimentary about it, at least, once the bugs were ironed out and there were enough 2-pdr guns for it. One of the Royal Tank Regiment officers had even suggested that the A15 would be a good starter tank for training, as the men would have plenty of experience of fixing broken things.
For Leese the question was to make sure that the Guardsmen who were having to retrain from being elite infantry felt that they were going to be the elite Armoured Division of the British army, and for that, Leese insisted on the best tanks. With all the rumblings around taking six of the finest Infantry Battalions in the world and putting them into tanks, what Leese wanted, General Brooke would do his best to secure.
For the rest of the meeting, the four men talked through their respective roles in putting together the training program. One of the biggest hurdles would simply be to train men as drivers, gunners, radio operators, mechanics. To train officers and NCOs with a whole new set of tactics and concerns. Later on, the Battalion Commanders, and the staff of Division and Brigade HQs, after lunch, would have a chance to talk through the issues they were concerned with, and how to plan creating an Armoured Division from scratch, the way the Guards would create an Armoured Division.
I know Guards Armoured was a thing from OTL but just taking a 600 man infantry battalion & dividing it into 5 man tank crews would need 120 tanks per battalion, 3 battalions per brigade & 2 brigades in the division would be over 700 tanks. Which is a bit excessive, so I assume that not all of the men would be suitable as tankers & the excess would transfer to other battalions of their regiment?
A tank battalion has a lot of people in back up roles. Actual tankers are probably 40-50% of the total manpower at most.
But those back ups are from other units such as REME, Logistics Corps, etc.
I don't think that was the case in WW2, or even later. Some specialist officers yes ((e.g. a Royal Signals officer but with the rest of the signals platoon drawn from the battalion) but the rest were on tbe battalion strength. It would have a HQ and administration company plus its own QM etc.
Though maybe someone else knows for sure.
Is that the 1944-5 structure? If so it had around 60 medium tanks and 10-12 light tanks.
When I started reading the latest update about the guards I was half expecting the Guards officers to to use their not insubstantial influence to get at least another Guards infantry battalion added to the Support Group, or even more interestingly, following the use of the “Mixed Division“ in the Middle East ITTL the Guards successfully arguing to be converted into a similar (dare I say mechanised infantry) divisional formation.
I don't think they ever did get wound up, certainly the wider Nuffield Organisation didn't. I know Nuffield did stop doing cruiser tanks after Cavalier/Centaur , but they were still doing tank design. It was just crazy stuff like the Assault Tanks (all 16 versions of it) and the A39 Tortoise.
I also hope they don't, because the Cromwell is fundamentally a Nuffield M&A design, just with a Meteor engine dropped in. Be a shame if it didn't emerge in some form, it'd also be nice to see someone outside Carden and Vickers doing well.
The Cromwell is likely being bypassed in favour of the Victor, which seems to be similar to the Comet. Also, while it would be good to see someone other than Carden/Vickers coming out, I'm not certain it should be Nuffield. After all, not only has he screwed up tanks (mostly by continuing with the Liberty engine, despite it being outdated), but he also managed to screw the RAF with his mismanagement of Castle Bromwich (which, ironically, got handed to Vickers to sort out).