Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
7 March 1942. Rangoon, Burma.
allanpcameron
Donor
7 March 1942. Rangoon, Burma.
General Harold Alexander had certainly lit a fire among the rear-echelon units. On his first visit to the port area, he had been informed that there 972 unassembled trucks that had arrived under Lend-Lease, with 5000 tyres to get them going. The excuses for why this goldmine of equipment was just waiting about for a Japanese air raid to destroy them, were no protection from the normally placid General Officer Commanding’s rage.
Quite a few officers found themselves demoted and shipped off ‘somewhere where they couldn’t lose the war for us’. The initial air raids had scared off some of the local labour, but that was no excuse for the lackadaisical way in which the port was being run. With new men in charge, and under continuous scrutiny to make sure the problems were being fixed in a timely matter, the backlog of equipment and stores began to be dispersed and delivered to where they were needed. Later Alexander would note the exceptional cooperation of the 14th Indian Division in their contributions to this task.
With Lieutenant General Joseph Stilwell having established his American Army Forces, China, Burma, and India, at Chungking, Alexander was keen to show British support for his new ally. ‘Vinegar Joe’ was a very different kind of character from Alexander, but sorting out the mess in Rangoon would go a long way towards making relations more cordial. Getting the Lend-Lease trucks assembled and into action really broke the log jam that had built up.
Alexander had met with Stilwell and Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek. The Chinese forces had been sent to support the British in Burma had been much appreciated, though they hadn’t had much to do. They had however allowed Bill Slim to concentrate his own force to give the Japanese a black eye. The discussion about whether the Chinese forces should remain in Burma as a back-up force had been useful. It had given Alexander a chance to evaluate the American and Chinese leaders, and to use his charm to oil the wheels of diplomacy. The Chinese forces would stay, and were receiving some further training while in Burma. The Chinese were also the beneficiaries of the changes in Rangoon, as they tended to get first choice of the Lend-Lease material that was meant for the Generalissimo.
When 9th (Highland) Division had moved from Egypt, they were accompanied by Lt Col Herbert Yeo’s 44th Bn RTR, which had begged, borrowed or stole enough Valiant I tanks to make a Tank Battalion. As well as the tanks, all of which had been repaired at one time or another, its men had been scrounged from various training units, replacement units, and hospitals. The arrival of a battalion of Infantry Tanks in Rangoon had been problematic, the ships’ own cranes had had to lift the tanks onto the dockside.
Yeo’s Battalion had left Egypt with the reputation of being worse thieves than the New Zealanders, something the 44th Bn RTR took as a great compliment. Their thieving ways continued on arrival in Burma, much to the annoyance of CO of 252nd Indian Armoured Brigade, the only other tankers in country. While the Indians had a whole range of different tanks (light and cruisers) there were enough bits and pieces not tied down that the 44th could put to good use.
Yeo had to wait for enough suitable transport to get his tanks from Rangoon to Moulmein, and then wait further for the road and river crossings from there to the River Ping to be improved enough for his tanks to move up. During their wait, the tanks had exercised with different units of both 9th (Highland) Division and 14th Indian Division. They’d also had the experience of working with General Sun Li-jen’s 113th Regiment of the Chinese New 38th Division, something that both sides found ‘interesting’.
The African and Indian Divisions, with the help of the two Regiments of the 252nd Armoured Brigades, had halted the Japanese at the river, but hadn’t been able to establish a crossing of their own. The 9th (Highland) Division had moved up to the border between Burma and Thailand as a backstop in case the Japanese managed to get around the Africans and Indians. Lt-Col Yeo had motored up to the 9th Division’s HQ to get the lay of the land and see whether his tanks would be able to make the journey. There were a couple of points where a bit more work was needed to allow the passage of the tanks, and Lieutenant General Slim had provided a Royal Engineer Field Company to sort out those problems. When Yeo got back to his own HQ, he briefed his men and sorted out the order of march. 44th Bn RTR was going back to war.
General Harold Alexander had certainly lit a fire among the rear-echelon units. On his first visit to the port area, he had been informed that there 972 unassembled trucks that had arrived under Lend-Lease, with 5000 tyres to get them going. The excuses for why this goldmine of equipment was just waiting about for a Japanese air raid to destroy them, were no protection from the normally placid General Officer Commanding’s rage.
Quite a few officers found themselves demoted and shipped off ‘somewhere where they couldn’t lose the war for us’. The initial air raids had scared off some of the local labour, but that was no excuse for the lackadaisical way in which the port was being run. With new men in charge, and under continuous scrutiny to make sure the problems were being fixed in a timely matter, the backlog of equipment and stores began to be dispersed and delivered to where they were needed. Later Alexander would note the exceptional cooperation of the 14th Indian Division in their contributions to this task.
With Lieutenant General Joseph Stilwell having established his American Army Forces, China, Burma, and India, at Chungking, Alexander was keen to show British support for his new ally. ‘Vinegar Joe’ was a very different kind of character from Alexander, but sorting out the mess in Rangoon would go a long way towards making relations more cordial. Getting the Lend-Lease trucks assembled and into action really broke the log jam that had built up.
Alexander had met with Stilwell and Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek. The Chinese forces had been sent to support the British in Burma had been much appreciated, though they hadn’t had much to do. They had however allowed Bill Slim to concentrate his own force to give the Japanese a black eye. The discussion about whether the Chinese forces should remain in Burma as a back-up force had been useful. It had given Alexander a chance to evaluate the American and Chinese leaders, and to use his charm to oil the wheels of diplomacy. The Chinese forces would stay, and were receiving some further training while in Burma. The Chinese were also the beneficiaries of the changes in Rangoon, as they tended to get first choice of the Lend-Lease material that was meant for the Generalissimo.
When 9th (Highland) Division had moved from Egypt, they were accompanied by Lt Col Herbert Yeo’s 44th Bn RTR, which had begged, borrowed or stole enough Valiant I tanks to make a Tank Battalion. As well as the tanks, all of which had been repaired at one time or another, its men had been scrounged from various training units, replacement units, and hospitals. The arrival of a battalion of Infantry Tanks in Rangoon had been problematic, the ships’ own cranes had had to lift the tanks onto the dockside.
Yeo’s Battalion had left Egypt with the reputation of being worse thieves than the New Zealanders, something the 44th Bn RTR took as a great compliment. Their thieving ways continued on arrival in Burma, much to the annoyance of CO of 252nd Indian Armoured Brigade, the only other tankers in country. While the Indians had a whole range of different tanks (light and cruisers) there were enough bits and pieces not tied down that the 44th could put to good use.
Yeo had to wait for enough suitable transport to get his tanks from Rangoon to Moulmein, and then wait further for the road and river crossings from there to the River Ping to be improved enough for his tanks to move up. During their wait, the tanks had exercised with different units of both 9th (Highland) Division and 14th Indian Division. They’d also had the experience of working with General Sun Li-jen’s 113th Regiment of the Chinese New 38th Division, something that both sides found ‘interesting’.
The African and Indian Divisions, with the help of the two Regiments of the 252nd Armoured Brigades, had halted the Japanese at the river, but hadn’t been able to establish a crossing of their own. The 9th (Highland) Division had moved up to the border between Burma and Thailand as a backstop in case the Japanese managed to get around the Africans and Indians. Lt-Col Yeo had motored up to the 9th Division’s HQ to get the lay of the land and see whether his tanks would be able to make the journey. There were a couple of points where a bit more work was needed to allow the passage of the tanks, and Lieutenant General Slim had provided a Royal Engineer Field Company to sort out those problems. When Yeo got back to his own HQ, he briefed his men and sorted out the order of march. 44th Bn RTR was going back to war.
Once things settle down, Generalissimo Cash-my-cheque is going to get significantly more material aid than OTL with the Burma Road open.
I know it’s not something Allan will want to cover in much (if any) detail, but it’s interesting to think how it will change the war against Japan and the Chinese Civil War.
I know it’s not something Allan will want to cover in much (if any) detail, but it’s interesting to think how it will change the war against Japan and the Chinese Civil War.
I'm reminded of the time 1,400 Austin K5 3-ton trucks were delivered to Normandy with faulty pistons, and all of the replacement engines had the same fault.
Long supply lines and questionable local reception (the British were a colonial power at the time) means it's not ideal.
Are we going to see the Valiant I being sent to china as they are replaced by Victors? I am guessing that Russia wants Mark II and not the older mark I. Thinking about how bad the roads in china are, how many MarkIV light tanks are still around? As they would they be perfect for the area and the limited supply KMT can provide.
When it comes to how China looks at the Western Powers at this time, UK/France bad and US good. The US practices economic colonialism which had them looking at not large swaths of territory, but places like trading posts, missions, schools and such. The US, even with it anti immigrant stance, still brought Chinese over to study at US schools and then to go back to spread the word of Capitalism, Christianity, and Progress to China.
Could be a useful place to dump the Valiants that don’t get turned in Funnies especially given there will be a lot floating around could even send them a few engineering variants.
Those trucks were not faulty equipped per se but had been modified with 'improved' cylinder rings to allow for deep water wading which had the unintended consequence of reducing the life of the engines - this coupled with a change over to MT 80s pool petrol which caused over heating on older engine designs and the introduction of HT-30 oil as the standard vehicle oil which did not act as the earlier oil and left a residue on the Piston walls causing other issues as it was burnt - massively reduced the expected life time of the engines.
So it was not like 1400 trucks (of the 12,000 plus K5s made in WW2) all stopped working at once but that the engines had to be stripped down and different piston rings installed as well as some other modifications between Sept and Dec 1944 as the problem became evident.
Isn't really much of a difference between the Mark I and Mark II since the Soviets are putting their own guns in them anyways (obviously with their own mountings) and the Mark I can be converted to the Mark II without too much effort.
I think the variation is mainly in the turret. It's more than just a gun though, I think the Mark II has a cupola for the commander, compared to just a couple of periscopes in the Mark I
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
A number of interesting questions have emerged from the latest post, about the recent inspection of the Burma front. Before diving into my thoughts, a little bit of history might serve to illustrate some important points. Prior to WWII, the primary focus of the Indian Army, other than providing support to the British Army around the world, was the North West Frontier, and dealing with the various challenges that arose, in trying to police this incredibly volatile region. In addition due to a number of restrictions imposed after the Indian mutiny, the Army lacked some vital units, but had since the end of WWI, been going through a gradual transition to being equal to its parent force the British Army. It was only due to changes that mostly resulted from the Burma campaign OOTL, that Indian Indian officers rose to higher ranks and India infantry divisions lost their British components, and thus the Indian Army of 1945, was totally equal to any other First World Army. In addition the pre war policy of only recruiting in selected areas was dropped, and the Army started to recruit from the entire population. Burma which had been the place that you sent those officers who had failed to match up to their requirements, due to personnel problems, drink, gambling, morals, inadequate performance, was very much a sleepy backwater. And this was the case for officials of the Indian civil service too, as long as the rubber, teak, rice, and other products were coming out without major problems, it was very much a case of let sleeping dogs lie. Suddenly this Colonial backwater has become an area of vital importance, and the colossus of the Indian administration has had to switch its focus from its traditional principle area of concern the North West Frontier, to the other side of the nation, with its total inadequate infrastructure, while keeping one eye on the NWF.
The failure of the Japanese to successfully implement their plan to capture Malaysia, has seriously disrupted their plans for Burma, which has caused some work to be done on addressing the numerous problems. General Alexander has begun the process of clearing out the worst of the deadwood in both the military and civilian administration, and is starting the process of preparing the area for what will become its roles going forward. These can be divided into, providing support for the continuing efforts to supply the Chinese forces via the Burma Road, and I believe will be the implementation of a form of air bridge. This requires improvements to administration and facilities of the Port of Rangoon, plus the railways to the north that link the port to the Burma Road. At one and the same time, there needs to be major improvements to the Burma Road itself, its infrastructure and administration, thus leading to a significant increase in tonnage carried. And alongside this preparation needs to be made to support the British attack into Thailand and eventually FIC, which is going to require significant improvements to the infrastructure in southern Burma and along the border with FIC. Until the British manage to capture Bangkok, and are thus able to base their operations out of there, at which point the need for supplies to transit Rangoon, other than to supply the Burma Road and support operations in FIC, will be over as they will now be able to use Rangoon as their principal supply port. This change to the events OOTL, is going to have significant implications to the situation ITTL, in the post war world, especially for the British and their relationship with their Far East colonies. Without the substantial threat to British rule, the occurred when the Japanese assault on Burma, succeeded in reaching the Burma India border. The support of the Quit Indian movement will be reduced, and the British will not be required to devote as many resources to controlling internal security. Nor with Burma remaining unconquerable, will the rice be unavailable to feed the Bengalese, and thus the famine of OTL will not now take place. Without the Japanese occupation of Burma, the British rule will not be disrupted, and while as in India self rule will eventually happen, the handover will be better organised, and the date pushed back somewhat.
Without the Japanese occupation of Malaya, Singapore and the DEI, there will a much reduced anti colonial conflict. Not only will the large number of arms that became available, both from the Japanese, and those sent by the American and British governments to arm the resistance forces not now be available. But also various leaders who were elevated by their involvement in the resistance movement, will now never be heard of, and the numerous independence movements will be directed by those who are already established in the political sphere. While there is no doubt that the British colonies will receive independence, the time scale might be different, and the partition of British India being achieved with a lot less bloodshed. And possibly the question of Kashmir being resolved prior to independence, and not left hanging in the air, as it was IOTL. The big change in FIC, will be that this region be liberated by British ground forces, and not as a result of the Japanese surrender at the end of the war. There is no question that the British will facilitate the reestablishment of French civil control as they progress through the region. And there will not be an extended period of local autonomy as happened IOTL, as the British who were short of assets and concentrated on the restoration of control over Burma and Malaysia. Where slow to enter FIC and then rapidly depleted when the first French forces arrived. In addition given that there will be a much smaller American presence in India, Burma, FIC, Malaysia and the DEI, it will be predominantly the British who will be calling the shots. While there will be an American airforce presence in China, there will be very few American ground troops in the region. And the improvements to the Burma Road will be implemented by a combination of Indian, Burmese and Chinese workers, as will the workers in the Port of Rangoon. While construction of the airfields required by the Americans in China, will ITTL as they were IOTL, will be done by hand by locals.
Post war the situation in China will be very different ITTL to the one that occurred IOTL, as the combination of different factors, both inside China and in the Far East region, cause significant changes. IOTL by mid 1942, Chang had to a great extent lost in the eyes of many Chinese the Mandate of Heaven, and was no longer seen as the man to led China into the future. Both his and his families corruption, along with the general corruption of his regime, along with the early impressions that the Japanese were going to be all conquering. Due to their string of constant successes against the Americans, British. Dutch and French, and the severing of the one remaining land connection to the none communist world, made him look totally isolated. ITTL, not only is does China still have a land connection to the outside world, but also the Japanese have not enjoyed the success that they did, especially in what to the Chinese is the most vital region. The successes of the Japanese Navy in the Pacific have very little impact on the Chinese situation, however the failures of the Japanese Army in Malaya, Burma and the DEI. And the subsequent withdrawal of Japanese forces to reinforce their efforts, will have a profound effect on Japanese operations in China. That and the slowly increasing material support provided by American Lend Lease over the Burma Road, and by the airlift out of Burma. Is going to improve the prestige of Chang temporarily, and if he listens to the advice from Vinegar Joe, unlikely, he will be able to conduct some minor operations that reinforce the appearance of his success. Once 1943 rolls around, the combination of increasing problems for the Japanese in Thailand and FIC, plus the establishment of an American air group in China, will make his situation much stronger. If in 1944, the British recapture Hong Kong, and thus open up via the Pearl River direct communications to the outside world, and a greater ability to transport goods inside China. He might stand a chance of subduing the Communists under Mao or extending the civil war until either the Americans or Soviets directly intervene.
RR.
The failure of the Japanese to successfully implement their plan to capture Malaysia, has seriously disrupted their plans for Burma, which has caused some work to be done on addressing the numerous problems. General Alexander has begun the process of clearing out the worst of the deadwood in both the military and civilian administration, and is starting the process of preparing the area for what will become its roles going forward. These can be divided into, providing support for the continuing efforts to supply the Chinese forces via the Burma Road, and I believe will be the implementation of a form of air bridge. This requires improvements to administration and facilities of the Port of Rangoon, plus the railways to the north that link the port to the Burma Road. At one and the same time, there needs to be major improvements to the Burma Road itself, its infrastructure and administration, thus leading to a significant increase in tonnage carried. And alongside this preparation needs to be made to support the British attack into Thailand and eventually FIC, which is going to require significant improvements to the infrastructure in southern Burma and along the border with FIC. Until the British manage to capture Bangkok, and are thus able to base their operations out of there, at which point the need for supplies to transit Rangoon, other than to supply the Burma Road and support operations in FIC, will be over as they will now be able to use Rangoon as their principal supply port. This change to the events OOTL, is going to have significant implications to the situation ITTL, in the post war world, especially for the British and their relationship with their Far East colonies. Without the substantial threat to British rule, the occurred when the Japanese assault on Burma, succeeded in reaching the Burma India border. The support of the Quit Indian movement will be reduced, and the British will not be required to devote as many resources to controlling internal security. Nor with Burma remaining unconquerable, will the rice be unavailable to feed the Bengalese, and thus the famine of OTL will not now take place. Without the Japanese occupation of Burma, the British rule will not be disrupted, and while as in India self rule will eventually happen, the handover will be better organised, and the date pushed back somewhat.
Without the Japanese occupation of Malaya, Singapore and the DEI, there will a much reduced anti colonial conflict. Not only will the large number of arms that became available, both from the Japanese, and those sent by the American and British governments to arm the resistance forces not now be available. But also various leaders who were elevated by their involvement in the resistance movement, will now never be heard of, and the numerous independence movements will be directed by those who are already established in the political sphere. While there is no doubt that the British colonies will receive independence, the time scale might be different, and the partition of British India being achieved with a lot less bloodshed. And possibly the question of Kashmir being resolved prior to independence, and not left hanging in the air, as it was IOTL. The big change in FIC, will be that this region be liberated by British ground forces, and not as a result of the Japanese surrender at the end of the war. There is no question that the British will facilitate the reestablishment of French civil control as they progress through the region. And there will not be an extended period of local autonomy as happened IOTL, as the British who were short of assets and concentrated on the restoration of control over Burma and Malaysia. Where slow to enter FIC and then rapidly depleted when the first French forces arrived. In addition given that there will be a much smaller American presence in India, Burma, FIC, Malaysia and the DEI, it will be predominantly the British who will be calling the shots. While there will be an American airforce presence in China, there will be very few American ground troops in the region. And the improvements to the Burma Road will be implemented by a combination of Indian, Burmese and Chinese workers, as will the workers in the Port of Rangoon. While construction of the airfields required by the Americans in China, will ITTL as they were IOTL, will be done by hand by locals.
Post war the situation in China will be very different ITTL to the one that occurred IOTL, as the combination of different factors, both inside China and in the Far East region, cause significant changes. IOTL by mid 1942, Chang had to a great extent lost in the eyes of many Chinese the Mandate of Heaven, and was no longer seen as the man to led China into the future. Both his and his families corruption, along with the general corruption of his regime, along with the early impressions that the Japanese were going to be all conquering. Due to their string of constant successes against the Americans, British. Dutch and French, and the severing of the one remaining land connection to the none communist world, made him look totally isolated. ITTL, not only is does China still have a land connection to the outside world, but also the Japanese have not enjoyed the success that they did, especially in what to the Chinese is the most vital region. The successes of the Japanese Navy in the Pacific have very little impact on the Chinese situation, however the failures of the Japanese Army in Malaya, Burma and the DEI. And the subsequent withdrawal of Japanese forces to reinforce their efforts, will have a profound effect on Japanese operations in China. That and the slowly increasing material support provided by American Lend Lease over the Burma Road, and by the airlift out of Burma. Is going to improve the prestige of Chang temporarily, and if he listens to the advice from Vinegar Joe, unlikely, he will be able to conduct some minor operations that reinforce the appearance of his success. Once 1943 rolls around, the combination of increasing problems for the Japanese in Thailand and FIC, plus the establishment of an American air group in China, will make his situation much stronger. If in 1944, the British recapture Hong Kong, and thus open up via the Pearl River direct communications to the outside world, and a greater ability to transport goods inside China. He might stand a chance of subduing the Communists under Mao or extending the civil war until either the Americans or Soviets directly intervene.
RR.
If Alexander prioritizes Vinegar Joe's force in Burma for material it may force Chang to allow them to take the offensive especially if it is couched in support of the Commonwealth forces.
Before I started, I had no comment on the recent update, since I do not want to repeat my (already stale) compliments.
As for Malaysia, I have already stated my opinion (which is a bit spicy) in regards to it's fate in the future. Meanwhile the effective butterflying of another long standing insurgency would definitely helps the development of the north side of the Peninsular (with the most changes would be involving the fact there would be more private investment towards the north).
As for Chiang, well honestly, ITTL it would take a total cock-up from him in order for the KMT to lose to the Communist, which admittedly is probably likely since this is Chiang and the KMT we are talking about. Meanwhile, it is also likely for Mao and some of the communist commanders to somehow make a bigger cock-up than Chiang and thus reducing the communist standing and position in China. The point is, if someone could make a non-ASB timeline where the KMT wins the war with a POD of 1946 (this is a shout-out to the timeline BTW), at this point, it could be summarized as that anything can happen which would led to a KMT-lead, CCP-lead, anything in between or even a minute possibility of something else entirely that administer China by the time the Chinese Civil War ends.
Huh, I wonder what will happen to those lackluster officers, whether being transferred somewhere else, or immediately being disciplined and retrained to quickly prop up the administration.
Well India would be in a slightly different path. I wonder how much would the ideology of those in charge of an independent India would change ITTL.
As for Malaysia, I have already stated my opinion (which is a bit spicy) in regards to it's fate in the future. Meanwhile the effective butterflying of another long standing insurgency would definitely helps the development of the north side of the Peninsular (with the most changes would be involving the fact there would be more private investment towards the north).
Would be interesting to see the evolution of the administration of post-liberation Indochina ITTL since the greater involvement of the British would definitely change some things.
Well, the Japanese aggression against the Chinese, whether in China and definitely outside of China, should be experiencing a reduction ITTL. Meanwhile, perhaps some of the Chinese that had been done some (albeit extremely poor) training in Singapore could be retrained to a higher and more proper standard, and then if they want to, sent to the Chinese front. This and perhaps a bigger mission (with a more well-defined objective and operation) in China (helped by the fact there are less Commonwealth soldiers being killed and captured in the Burmese and Malayan front,) would certainly plays a part in facilitating the British involvement in China with the hope of a recapture of Hong Kong, perhaps even earlier than 1944 if the Japanese collapse in
As for Chiang, well honestly, ITTL it would take a total cock-up from him in order for the KMT to lose to the Communist, which admittedly is probably likely since this is Chiang and the KMT we are talking about. Meanwhile, it is also likely for Mao and some of the communist commanders to somehow make a bigger cock-up than Chiang and thus reducing the communist standing and position in China. The point is, if someone could make a non-ASB timeline where the KMT wins the war with a POD of 1946 (this is a shout-out to the timeline BTW), at this point, it could be summarized as that anything can happen which would led to a KMT-lead, CCP-lead, anything in between or even a minute possibility of something else entirely that administer China by the time the Chinese Civil War ends.