Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

Well I don't think Washington will be involved as they have other matters to address and there will be multiple British divisions on the ground. Burma-Malaya is a British war and Thailand is where the Japanese are based so by extension Indochina will become a British (and later Anglo-French) issue to resolve.

Only when (if?) France runs into issues with the Viet Minh might the Americans become involved. Until then Thailand will probably be seeking to as quickly as possible align with the Allies in theatre (British) and remove any trace of Phibun and the collaborationist faction. Quite how an Allied campaign into Indochina with Viet Minh co-belligerents may play out is anyone's guess.
Thailand is almost certainly going to pull an OTL Italy and switch sides, it's their only real chance to avoid a long-term military occupation that the British do not want. However, when that happens the Japanese are going to go absolutely frothing mad because, despite their treatment of both the Thai military & civilian population, they will see it as an inexcusable betrayal. So the anti-Japanese faction is going to have to time things very carefully and keep it as secret as possible. Luckily for them, Thailand doesn't have vast numbers of soldiers fighting in far off battlefronts, occupying conquered territories or rotting in Allied POW camps.

As for French Indochina, the Thais will be 'encouraged' by the British to return the land ceded by France after the Japanese 'mediated' their border conflict. As for the Viet-Minh, at this point in time they were not really communist, leaning that way yes, but not quite there yet. Ho Chi Minh didn't go fully communist OTL, openly seeking Soviet support, until after the were shunned by both France and the USA. ITL, with the British poised to crush the Japanese by driving into Thailand and, in combination with the Dutch, driving them out of the Dutch East Indies, Ho Chi Minh will almost certainly approach the British for support in the struggle against the Japanese in Vietnam. He will definitely renew the demand for independence, or self-governance within the French Empire, and being seen to assist in driving the Japanese out of Vietnam will go a long way in seeking this. However, the Viet-Minh need to be wary of trying to seize power to early as in OTL the British had no problems quashing that attempt before the French reoccupied Vietnam with US backing.
 
21 February 1942. Nottinghamshire, England.
21 February 1942. Nottinghamshire, England.

Brigadier Roy Jerram (CO 33rd Army Tank Brigade) watched the march past of the three Battalions of Churchill tanks. On the review platform was the man that some said had given his name to the A22 tank. The Prime Minister, with all due humility, always gave the credit to his ancestor, John Churchill, the first Duke of Marlborough, the victor of Blenheim.

The noise of 178 Infantry Tank Mark IV passing was almost deafening, even at a distance, and the reviewing stand was vibrating as the mass of the vehicles made the ground shake. The Prime Minister was beaming with delight, with General Alan Brooke (CIGS) standing a few paces behind him, grimacing.

As the review came to an end, Brigadier Jerram led the VIP party back to an impromptu Officers Mess. Churchill and Brook had arrived just after 10:00hrs, and had watched various demonstrations of gunnery, tanks manoeuvring, meeting the men, climbing all over one of the tanks, finishing with the review. It was now 17:00hrs and although Churchill was physically tired, he was enthused by what he had seen.

There was no doubt that a tank Brigade was a powerful force, but the Prime Minister, over a large brandy, picked up on something that had been bothering him for much of the day. Jerram, and Brooke, were obviously less impressed by what they had witnessed. Always direct, the PM asked Jerram why he wasn’t happy.

Jerram, had commanded a mixed Squadron of Infantry Tank Mk I and II at Arras, and reflected on that battle and the enormous difference between 7th Panzer Division’s Czech built Pz 38s and the British Infantry Tanks. Jerram knew that the First Army Tank Brigade had been very lucky at Arras. The speed of the panzers hadn’t been a factor, whereas the 2-pdr gun Matilda II and 2-pdr pompom of the Matilda had managed to defeat, not only the tanks, but the anti-tank guns and other artillery that could well have made mincemeat of the British tanks.

Every single one of the Churchills in his Tank Brigade had the 2-pdr gun in the turret and a 3-inch howitzer in the hull. Neither of which completely fulfilled the needs of an Infantry Support tank. The lessons of North Africa were that the 2-pdr was becoming obsolescent, and the position and accuracy of the 3-inch howitzer left a lot to be desired. Although the Brigade had tried swapping the two guns around, it was clear to Jerram that his tank needed one good dual-purpose gun in the turret, and at least one, if not two machine guns, one co-axial and one in the hull.

General Alan Brooke found himself in agreement with Jerram. The French B 1bis and the American Grant, like the Churchill, tried to do too many things in one tank. The word coming back from Malaya, like that in North Africa, was that infantry supporting tanks needed a good High Explosive capability, but also needed to be able to protect the infantry from enemy tanks, for which they needed Armour Piercing ammunition. Although an Artillery man through and through, Brooke was constantly dismayed at the decision-making process about tank guns. The Director of Artillery had been dead set against the pompom in the A11, but Jerram’s experience was that the 40mm HE was crucial in suppressing the enemy artillery and anti-tank guns. Now, the same Director of Artillery was doing everything in his power to undermine Vickers attempt to create a good dual-purpose gun with their 75mm HV.

The 6-pdr and new 17-pdr were very good AP guns, but still lacked a completely effective HE shell. They were now working on a replacement for the 3-pdr Close Support gun in the hulls of the Churchills’ with a new 95mm howitzer. This design was a concoction of part of a 3.7-in AA gun barrel, with a 6-pdr recoil mechanism and a 25-pdr’s breech mechanism, firing modified shells for the 3.7-inch Mountain Howitzer. It was meant to fit a tank that carried the 6-pdr without needing a different mounting. This was what had been done with the 3-inch howitzer fitted for 2-pdr mountings. Unfortunately, so far, unlike the 3-inch, this had proven impossible. The new howitzer needed a different turret mounting from the gun tanks, complicating production.

As far as Brooke could deduce this had been born in the minds of people who’d studied the Panzer IV’s 75mm KwK 37 L24. Everything that had been learned up until now pointed to an end of the Cruiser/Infantry Tank distinction. The Valiant I and I* had proven that there was no great difference between the two, and the either could be used in Tank or Armoured Brigades. The Victor was, once armed with the 75mm HV, designed from the start as a ‘universal tank’. Mobile, well protected and with a dual-purpose gun was what was needed. The 178 Churchills were very well protected, not terribly mobile (at least in regards to speed) and carried two different guns, complicating matters for the crew.

Ultimately that was what Jerram wanted for his Brigade, the best tank available. 178 Victors would make today’s demonstration look a lot more like 1942 than 1918. The Prime Minister’s reply was along the lines of a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. It was better to have reasonable tanks than have nothing while waiting for something better to come along. Jerram agreed, but if he found himself up against a German Panzer Division, he didn’t think he’d be as lucky as he’d been at Arras. He could see a place for these Churchills against Japanese opposition, and perhaps as a successor to the Matilda IIs they would come into their own. He knew full well that the Soviets, in a knife fight with the Wehrmacht, had no inclination to take the Churchill, not while they could get Valiants. That spoke volumes about the Churchill tank.

Brooke wrote in his diary later that the drive back to London with the PM had been tense. It was as if Jerram’s ‘complaints’ as the PM called them, was somehow ungrateful. Brooke disagreed, any soldier going into battle had to be confident in his equipment as well as his training. The design of the Churchill tank was a relic of the past, it could still be of limited use. Brooke reminded the PM that previous visits to Armoured Brigades with the Crusader cruiser tanks had thrown up the same basic complaint. The Crusader wasn’t bad, but the Valiant and the Victor were good tanks. The Valiant had proven itself in North Africa, but opening a second front against the Germans would need a tank that at least matched, if not outmatched the German tanks that were no doubt in development. If, as suspected, the Germans had a long 75mm tank gun, even an 88mm gun, on a well-protected tank, then the Royal Armoured Corps needed something that could beat them. The Crusader and the Churchill, even the planned Cromwell, wouldn’t fit the bill. The Victor probably would, at least for the next two years. By 1944 Brooke hoped that Carden’s design for the follow on to the Victor would be replacing them in front line units. Brooke noted that the PM went a bit quiet in the last part of the journey, and as yet, he couldn’t read the PM’s mind, only he knew that something was being chewed over.
 
Seems like Churchill is thinking of ordering another tank off the drawing board to get it into production faster rather than allowing for a development process to sort out problems first.
 
Seems like Churchill is thinking of ordering another tank off the drawing board to get it into production faster rather than allowing for a development process to sort out problems first.
Not the way I'm reading it. More like the realisation that the non-Carden tanks will be of limited use in the future.
 
Seems like Churchill is thinking of ordering another tank off the drawing board to get it into production faster rather than allowing for a development process to sort out problems first.
One might hope that he is instead thinking about a... Robust and vigorous conversation with the director of Artillery.
 
By 1944 Brooke hoped that Carden’s design for the follow on to the Victor would be replacing them in front line units. Brooke noted that the PM went a bit quiet in the last part of the journey, and as yet, he couldn’t read the PM’s mind, only he knew that something was being chewed over.
Thats ethier a worrying sign or a very good sign, Churchill is the sort of PM who I think liked it if people argued with him and could back up their logic. I have to wonder though what he is thinking right now.
 
Doing as they did in OTL, ditching the hull gun and putting a decent turret and gun on the Churchill is one choice. The Churchill NA conversion showed that in OTL engineers could be inventive and work out fixes in the field. A Churchill with the 75mm HV gun would be very useful in Italy or other mountainous territory.
 
Doing as they did in OTL, ditching the hull gun and putting a decent turret and gun on the Churchill is one choice. The Churchill NA conversion showed that in OTL engineers could be inventive and work out fixes in the field. A Churchill with the 75mm HV gun would be very useful in Italy or other mountainous territory.
The Churchill won't fit a 75mm HV. The most you'll be able to shoe in is an Ordnance QF 75mm.
 
Alan Brooke make a good point about the Churchill being better against the Japanese, though they have trouble already with the Matilda. A Chruchill tearing through the Jungle into their positions would be damned near terrifying to them. I'd also argue that it could be a useful support tank as well for the Royal engineers an AVRE, Recovery or engineering tank built around its hull would be useful since a lot of that space inside you could fit all sorts of tools.

As to the Crusader it seems like a bit of a lame duck when compared to Valiant and Victor, it could make a good training tank but other than that given the flaws and lack of testing I can't see it enjoying a decent field life.
 
Alan Brooke make a good point about the Churchill being better against the Japanese, though they have trouble already with the Matilda. A Chruchill tearing through the Jungle into their positions would be damned near terrifying to them.
Speed wouldn't be as much of a thing as the improved terrain-crossing ability. With a lower ground pressure, and the ability to deal with steeper slopes, it can turn up where the Japanese might not necessarily expect it. It certainly caught the Germans off-guard a few times. Makes me wonder if anyone will have the bright idea to try to stick a Lion engine in, to give it a bit more grunt.

I'd also argue that it could be a useful support tank as well for the Royal engineers an AVRE, Recovery or engineering tank built around its hull would be useful since a lot of that space inside you could fit all sorts of tools.
Yep. The terrain-crossing ability will stand it in good stead there.

As to the Crusader it seems like a bit of a lame duck when compared to Valiant and Victor, it could make a good training tank but other than that given the flaws and lack of testing I can't see it enjoying a decent field life.
Well it's finally getting to be reliable enough, so it can fill some rear-line roles, like ARV, artillery tractor, etc.
 
The Australia testing of vehicles in 1944 were the Churhill versus the Sherman and they found the Sherman very wanting indeed in the conditions they experienced in New Guinea. The Churchill was an adequate performer. It was found it's tracks gripped better in the New Guinea conditions than the Sherman's. The gun on either was adequate and the Armour of the Sherman was found to be inadequate, while the Churchill's was superb.

 
Speed wouldn't be as much of a thing as the improved terrain-crossing ability. With a lower ground pressure, and the ability to deal with steeper slopes, it can turn up where the Japanese might not necessarily expect it. It certainly caught the Germans off-guard a few times. Makes me wonder if anyone will have the bright idea to try to stick a Lion engine in, to give it a bit more grunt
Aye, and they have nothing that can scratch it as well the British, Indian Australian and New Zealand Armoured regiments out there will love it. Heck maybe sell some to the Dutch as well if it's not being used in the European theatre then some extra armour will be a godsend.
Well it's finally getting to be reliable enough, so it can fill some rear-line roles, like ARV, artillery tractor, etc.
I'd argue that Churchill (the PM not the Tank) will be less than pleased with the issues with the Crusader given what he has just heard he may look into what other Brigades have said about it. Then he may go from miffed to rather thunderous with Nuttfield and his organisation.
 
I'd argue that Churchill (the PM not the Tank) will be less than pleased with the issues with the Crusader given what he has just heard he may look into what other Brigades have said about it. Then he may go from miffed to rather thunderous with Nuttfield and his organisation.
Aren't they already in his "brown" book because of the problems with the Spitfire production in B.. Castle? If so, can't Lord "Nuttfield" be thrown into the Tower for working with the enemy..... (Once is Happentance, Twice is circumstance, Thrice is .....)
 
Aye, and they have nothing that can scratch it as well the British, Indian Australian and New Zealand Armoured regiments out there will love it. Heck maybe sell some to the Dutch as well if it's not being used in the European theatre then some extra armour will be a godsend.
The Japanese don't have anything that can really scratch the Matilda II, so the increase in armour isn't really important.

I'd argue that Churchill (the PM not the Tank) will be less than pleased with the issues with the Crusader given what he has just heard he may look into what other Brigades have said about it. Then he may go from miffed to rather thunderous with Nuttfield and his organisation.
Well Crusader is better than nothing, but not as good as other designs. OTOH, it uses none of the same parts as the Valiant, so you won't see suddenly bottlenecks keeping it going, where you might if you try switching the factories to other production-lines.
 
Well Crusader is better than nothing, but not as good as other designs. OTOH, it uses none of the same parts as the Valiant, so you won't see suddenly bottlenecks keeping it going, where you might if you try switching the factories to other production-lines.
Then I'd argue then for a reduction in the order and only have it for training establishments and areas where the tank isn't really expected to see anything resembling combat.
 
If the troops in the Far East come to like the Churchill, they're going to love the Crocodile.
Might make the Japanese think again about some last stands. It's one thing, after all, to believe you can survive bullets, another to believe you can survive a flamethrower.

Then I'd argue then for a reduction in the order and only have it for training establishments and areas where the tank isn't really expected to see anything resembling combat.
Yep. ARVs and artillery tractors will do fine, and maybe SPAAG in a few places.
 
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