Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
But what happens if the Dieppe equivalent succeeds - does someone with the initials WC start pushing for an invasion tomorrow 😁
Mark1878
Donor
The USA and USSR were pressing for an earlier invasion, might WC actually be the voice of rerason here and say we need more men and materials.
Are you think they land and actually take a port somehow or more likely they land get put unset heavy fire but are able to extract with fewer losses?
Probably similar to OTL TBH, but manage to inflict much heavier casualties on the Germans in doing so, while taking a few less losses themselves.
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Rhodes is probably the best next target, being larger, but not too large, and a more symbolic target.
It was pre-War Italian territory, and has at least a Division, but an Italian one, as its garrison. It makes operational and political sense.
It was pre-War Italian territory, and has at least a Division, but an Italian one, as its garrison. It makes operational and political sense.
Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
From what I recall of previous discussions of Dieppe in previous threads, the shingle beach was a seriously nasty discovery in terms stuff the top brass hadn't even thought about being a possible problem for tanks.
And I'm not sure that Rhodes has any beaches like that in places where a landing might be attempted?
And I'm not sure that Rhodes has any beaches like that in places where a landing might be attempted?
They've already learned that lesson though. In fact, most of the lessons of this landing appear to be 'check the terrain'.
Basicly they try to do it as a exercise for the homebound forces and its main purpose especially if it goes better is make the germans start fortifying the french coast earlier and as said it a better raid could help the soviets. Hell if this was asb it could turn into the actual invasion but since it isnt it could just be a big distraction .
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13 February 1942. Ping River, Thailand.
allanpcameron
Donor
13 February 1942. Ping River, Thailand.
The reconnaissance units of 11th African Division had advanced in front of the 21st and 22nd East Africa Infantry Brigades. The Division tended to be lighter than most Divisions on motorised transport, but the 1st Battalion Northern Rhodesia Regiment (1 Bn NRR) had arrived at the river not long after the universal carriers of the reconnaissance companies.
The road between Mae Sot on the border and Raheng (Tak) on the river had obviously had improvements made to it. Some of the locals described how the Japanese had been using local forced labour to upgrade the road. The Japanese had left, but the Thai army had a strong force at Raheng, where the crossing over the river Ping was strongly held.
This information proved correct, as the reconnaissance force found to its detriment. The arrival of 1 Bn NRR provided the Thai artillery with another target. It would take another day or so for the rest of 21st Brigade, with its artillery to arrive, so the African troops dug in. Communications between the infantry battalion and the Brigade HQ, and between the Brigade and Divisional HQs were eventually established.
It wasn’t entirely clear, but air reconnaissance, along with some human intelligence, suggested that a Japanese column was on its way to Raheng from the railway at Phitsanulok, about eighty miles distant. It was crucial that the African troops were fully prepared in case the Japanese were preparing to block the Burma forces attack on Thailand by attacking them, which seemed to be the normal way of things.
Once Lieutenant-General Bill Slim was informed of the intelligence he knew he was in a foot race with the Japanese. Whoever got the river ‘the fastest, with the mostest,’ was the more likely to prevail. 1st West Africa Infantry Brigade, the other part of 11th African Division was well emplaced at the pass between Kawkareik and the border. Slim knew it would they would best be left in place to provide a backstop. Douglas Gracie’s 10th Indian Division, Slim’s old command, were moving up from Moulmein, and Slim ordered Gracie to get a move on and get to the river Ping as soon as possible. Slim also ordered the two regiments of 252nd Indian Armoured Brigade (13th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers, 4th Duke of Cambridge's Own Hodson's Horse) accompanying the 10th Indian Division, to do everything in their power to get as far forward as they could. There were plenty of places that the Japanese could get across the river, but very few places where they could get through the hills. Having the complete 10th Indian Division, with two regiments of tanks, would give the Japanese a real headache.
The route from Moulmein to Kawkareik involved a vehicle ferry over the river Gyaing. Since this was essential to swift movement, the engineers had added a pontoon bridge. Slim made sure that the Corps’ Artillery commander knew to put whatever anti-air assets he could scrape up to protect this. He also requested the RAF to find out just exactly what the Japanese column consisted of, and to do everything in their power to attack it, and the railhead at Phinsanulok. The Blenheims of No 113 Squadron RAF were tasked with these two roles and attacks on the Japanese began the next day.
The reconnaissance units of 11th African Division had advanced in front of the 21st and 22nd East Africa Infantry Brigades. The Division tended to be lighter than most Divisions on motorised transport, but the 1st Battalion Northern Rhodesia Regiment (1 Bn NRR) had arrived at the river not long after the universal carriers of the reconnaissance companies.
The road between Mae Sot on the border and Raheng (Tak) on the river had obviously had improvements made to it. Some of the locals described how the Japanese had been using local forced labour to upgrade the road. The Japanese had left, but the Thai army had a strong force at Raheng, where the crossing over the river Ping was strongly held.
This information proved correct, as the reconnaissance force found to its detriment. The arrival of 1 Bn NRR provided the Thai artillery with another target. It would take another day or so for the rest of 21st Brigade, with its artillery to arrive, so the African troops dug in. Communications between the infantry battalion and the Brigade HQ, and between the Brigade and Divisional HQs were eventually established.
It wasn’t entirely clear, but air reconnaissance, along with some human intelligence, suggested that a Japanese column was on its way to Raheng from the railway at Phitsanulok, about eighty miles distant. It was crucial that the African troops were fully prepared in case the Japanese were preparing to block the Burma forces attack on Thailand by attacking them, which seemed to be the normal way of things.
Once Lieutenant-General Bill Slim was informed of the intelligence he knew he was in a foot race with the Japanese. Whoever got the river ‘the fastest, with the mostest,’ was the more likely to prevail. 1st West Africa Infantry Brigade, the other part of 11th African Division was well emplaced at the pass between Kawkareik and the border. Slim knew it would they would best be left in place to provide a backstop. Douglas Gracie’s 10th Indian Division, Slim’s old command, were moving up from Moulmein, and Slim ordered Gracie to get a move on and get to the river Ping as soon as possible. Slim also ordered the two regiments of 252nd Indian Armoured Brigade (13th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers, 4th Duke of Cambridge's Own Hodson's Horse) accompanying the 10th Indian Division, to do everything in their power to get as far forward as they could. There were plenty of places that the Japanese could get across the river, but very few places where they could get through the hills. Having the complete 10th Indian Division, with two regiments of tanks, would give the Japanese a real headache.
The route from Moulmein to Kawkareik involved a vehicle ferry over the river Gyaing. Since this was essential to swift movement, the engineers had added a pontoon bridge. Slim made sure that the Corps’ Artillery commander knew to put whatever anti-air assets he could scrape up to protect this. He also requested the RAF to find out just exactly what the Japanese column consisted of, and to do everything in their power to attack it, and the railhead at Phinsanulok. The Blenheims of No 113 Squadron RAF were tasked with these two roles and attacks on the Japanese began the next day.
That they're soon to be fighting in Siam is huge and not just militarily. Because the war is in Siam there will be no Bengal famine thanks to Burmese rice.
Blame the US government, they were the ones who denied the offers of forming a unified regional command until it was too late.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Stalin and the second front, Stalin constantly pushed for the Anglo Americans to enact a second front against the Germans. His reasons for doing so were understandable, but in my opinion flawed. Stalin was focused on the ground war in the East, and the cost to the Soviet Union of this war. His nation was suffering tremendous losses both human and material, and while he had very little consideration for the human losses, he was very concerned about the material. One of the major problems for Stalin was, while the war was a global war for two of the principle allies, America and Britain, it was only a regional conflict for the Soviet Union. America and Britain fought from the freezing waters of the Arctic to the equally freezing waters of the Antarctic. Of the world’s continents, only in South America and Antarctica didn’t they engage in conflict. Thanks to Lend Lease, a Soviet soldier wearing British boots having breakfasted on bread made from American grain, and spam made with American pork, washed down with coffee from Brazil transported to Russia in a British ship. Could then be carried in an American truck to battle, while American fighter bombers provided top cover. While the Soviets could have defeated the Germans without LL, it would have been much harder and taken a greater toll on the nation.
Stalin who never paid anything other than lip service to the contributions that America and Britain made to the success of Soviet forces. And constantly called for a second front. While failing to acknowledge two of the campaigns that the Anglo Americans engaged in, and their contribution to the eventual victory. The invasion of Italy and the strategic bombing campaign, both of which in their own way were second fronts, diverting significant resources away from the German campaign in the East. And while LL in the West was a four lane road, with three lanes going from the Americans to the British, and one lane going from the British to the Americans, LL to Russia was a one way street. Other than a few strategic minerals, and possibly some timber, nothing came back to the West from the Soviet Union. No British or American forces used Soviet equipment, unlike the Anglo Americans, were both sides used each other’s equipment, from the most basic to the most highly sophisticated. Americans maned British built ships in the battle of the Atlantic, while the British maned American built merchantmen, built on a modified British design. Americans flew British built aircraft in combat missions, and the British flew American aircraft in multiple roles.The exchange of equipment, resources, ideas, information and on occasion personnel, between the British Empire and the United States, was unprecedented in history.
Stalin wanted the Anglo Americans to develop what he considered to be a second front, for a number of complex reasons. He was paranoid, and thought that the Anglo Americans, would do a deal with the Nazis, which would allow them to concentrate on defeating the Soviets. His worst fear was that the Anglo Americans would agree to join the Nazis in an anti communist front. His failure to understand that some of the people proposing various what ifs, such as the formation of an anti communist alliance, were politically beyond the pale, and no one was going to listen to them. Not being used to hearing any opposing arguments, Stalin was not used to the free expression of ideas, and found it incomprehensible that the British or American governments didn’t suppress were controversial opinions. And he didn’t understand that the Allied governments could and did totally ignored the more lunatic fringe of their populace. I personally think that he had another reason for demanding that the second front was enacted sooner rather than later. It wasn’t that he wanted the pressure on the Soviets reduced, rather that he would be pleased for the Anglo American to fail. Such a failure would allow him to gain more land in Europe, and present the Soviet Union as the liberator of all. As he did in the post war era, while denying that the Anglo Americans had made any contribution to the liberation struggle. It should be noted that it was his generals who having seen the results of the strategic bombing campaign in Eastern Germany, advised him that going to war with the Anglo Americans, would not be a good idea. I believe that it was the growing realisation of the power that the Anglo Americans had, including at the end of the war, the atomic bomb. That forced Stalin to pretend to cooperate, even while his security forces were extinguishing any possibility of opposition in those territories his forces embedded in.
RR.
Stalin who never paid anything other than lip service to the contributions that America and Britain made to the success of Soviet forces. And constantly called for a second front. While failing to acknowledge two of the campaigns that the Anglo Americans engaged in, and their contribution to the eventual victory. The invasion of Italy and the strategic bombing campaign, both of which in their own way were second fronts, diverting significant resources away from the German campaign in the East. And while LL in the West was a four lane road, with three lanes going from the Americans to the British, and one lane going from the British to the Americans, LL to Russia was a one way street. Other than a few strategic minerals, and possibly some timber, nothing came back to the West from the Soviet Union. No British or American forces used Soviet equipment, unlike the Anglo Americans, were both sides used each other’s equipment, from the most basic to the most highly sophisticated. Americans maned British built ships in the battle of the Atlantic, while the British maned American built merchantmen, built on a modified British design. Americans flew British built aircraft in combat missions, and the British flew American aircraft in multiple roles.The exchange of equipment, resources, ideas, information and on occasion personnel, between the British Empire and the United States, was unprecedented in history.
Stalin wanted the Anglo Americans to develop what he considered to be a second front, for a number of complex reasons. He was paranoid, and thought that the Anglo Americans, would do a deal with the Nazis, which would allow them to concentrate on defeating the Soviets. His worst fear was that the Anglo Americans would agree to join the Nazis in an anti communist front. His failure to understand that some of the people proposing various what ifs, such as the formation of an anti communist alliance, were politically beyond the pale, and no one was going to listen to them. Not being used to hearing any opposing arguments, Stalin was not used to the free expression of ideas, and found it incomprehensible that the British or American governments didn’t suppress were controversial opinions. And he didn’t understand that the Allied governments could and did totally ignored the more lunatic fringe of their populace. I personally think that he had another reason for demanding that the second front was enacted sooner rather than later. It wasn’t that he wanted the pressure on the Soviets reduced, rather that he would be pleased for the Anglo American to fail. Such a failure would allow him to gain more land in Europe, and present the Soviet Union as the liberator of all. As he did in the post war era, while denying that the Anglo Americans had made any contribution to the liberation struggle. It should be noted that it was his generals who having seen the results of the strategic bombing campaign in Eastern Germany, advised him that going to war with the Anglo Americans, would not be a good idea. I believe that it was the growing realisation of the power that the Anglo Americans had, including at the end of the war, the atomic bomb. That forced Stalin to pretend to cooperate, even while his security forces were extinguishing any possibility of opposition in those territories his forces embedded in.
RR.