Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

Which one? The Sherman originally had 3, one in a ball mount and 2 fixed. Without British feedback from using it in the desert they'll still have the useless fixed guns.
So the fact that the British seem to be doing away with the bow MG altogether won't change things? And I meant the ball-mount, the other two are worse than useless.

Looking at it, the Ford V12 would probably not only be good for the Victor, but given it got boosted to 770 hp later on, might do well in the Centurion-equivalent too. Properly dieselised OFC.
 
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Hmm would the Sherman have the same Rep with British Units that it had OTL? Given how much better British Armour is in this timeline adding to the fact that they have had consistent well built tanks thr Sherman's may not receive the same rapture they did OTL.

In fact some may comment on it being a poor mans Valiant or a Victor.

It depends on if the Victor is going to have a workable gun stabilizer like the Sherman has; though even in the case if doesn't originally, there will probably be license production/lend-lease for the stabilizer soon after Shermans show up.

But most likely I'd think that the British consensus on the Sherman would be "much better than the Crusader/Churchill, somewhat better than the Valiant/whatever Nuffield cooks up to replace the Crusader, not as good as the Victor."

The Sherman does have the dual-purpose 75mm from the outset, which crews are going to appreciate; it'll also be able to be re-armed with something better (like the IOTL Firefly) as it has the same turret ring diameter as the Victor at ~1750mm, though that's hampered by the smaller turret for the 75mm that the Shermans supplied to British have. I wonder if the UK could get lend-lease Shermans without the turret, (or 76mm Shermans without the gun like the Valiant they're giving to the Soviets) which they could then fit out themselves, resulting in a tank with better ergonomics than the Firefly. There's a good chance they won't put the 17pdr in the Sherman like IOTL if that doesn't happen, though; instead using the 75mm/77mm HV for commonality with the Victor; it's good enough, and it won't be as cramped as the IOTL Firefly.
 
It depends on if the Victor is going to have a workable gun stabilizer like the Sherman has
Given many US crews ripped it out as useless (single plane only, only worked at low speed, needed a properly trained crew and was a maintenance hog) and it was not even fitted on the Lend-Lease supplied tanks, I don't think it is a selling point. Its post WW2 with dual plane and the ability to work at any speed that gun stabilisation became mandatory on MBT's.
 
I'm pretty sure the British are going to be critical of any vehicle whete you have to pull the engine out with a crane just to change the spark plugs.
 
Given many US crews ripped it out as useless (single plane only, only worked at low speed, needed a properly trained crew and was a maintenance hog) and it was not even fitted on the Lend-Lease supplied tanks, I don't think it is a selling point. Its post WW2 with dual plane and the ability to work at any speed that gun stabilisation became mandatory on MBT's.
Yeah standard procedure at this point still involved stopping to fire, obviously accurate mobile fire was the holy grail but even in this TL its probably not happen for at least a few more years. Still thankfully in the "wonder weapon gets stage fright" stakes the stabliser not working wasn't a game breaker for the Sherman (which is still not a wonderful tank but even ITTL will retain the advantage there are so very many of them and if needed they can swamp the Nazi ones and drown them in steel).
 
No Sentinel, no Firefly. Without the Sentinel showing that it was possible to fit a 17 Pdr gun to a smaller turret ring, there would be no Firefly. The Firefly was a direct consequence of the Sentinel. AIUI the Sentinel is to be a non-starter in favour of licence production of the Victor.
 
No Sentinel, no Firefly. Without the Sentinel showing that it was possible to fit a 17 Pdr gun to a smaller turret ring, there would be no Firefly. The Firefly was a direct consequence of the Sentinel. AIUI the Sentinel is to be a non-starter in favour of licence production of the Victor.
I think Carden and his team could figure out a work-around.
 
No Sentinel, no Firefly. Without the Sentinel showing that it was possible to fit a 17 Pdr gun to a smaller turret ring, there would be no Firefly. The Firefly was a direct consequence of the Sentinel. AIUI the Sentinel is to be a non-starter in favour of licence production of the Victor.
This is not a problem if they develop a tank with a suitably large turret ring.
 
The Tizard mission would still happen as OTL with out much if any change.

Even with a better performance by the BEF etc the fall of France is still the massive disaster that it was originally.

The need to make maximum use of the US industry is still present in this time line.
 
Yep. This time though, they have vehicles the US might think worth the effort to produce.

There's also the possibility that the USA might take some design tips from the Victor on how to mount the 76mm gun on a Sherman.
 
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No Sentinel, no Firefly. Without the Sentinel showing that it was possible to fit a 17 Pdr gun to a smaller turret ring, there would be no Firefly. The Firefly was a direct consequence of the Sentinel. AIUI the Sentinel is to be a non-starter in favour of licence production of the Victor.
This time line's Sentinel is the Jumbuck, which is a mish-mash of the Sentinel and the Ram: a joint Canadian/Australian design.
Allan
 
Is such a vehicle even needed? I would have thought the Canadian Valiant production would have been enough for that.
 
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Domestic production of a local tank desgin makes sense to a degree and it means that Canada can equip its armoured formations faster especially considering the ongoing fighting in the Pacific it would be much much easier to move a joint Canadian and Australian desgined and built tank into theater than wait for something to come from elsewhere.
 

marathag

Banned
No Sentinel, no Firefly. Without the Sentinel showing that it was possible to fit a 17 Pdr gun to a smaller turret ring, there would be no Firefly. The Firefly was a direct consequence of the Sentinel. AIUI the Sentinel is to be a non-starter in favour of licence production of the Victor.
The consequence was that the 6 pdr and 75mmM3 were not good enough, old WWI derived 3" from UK or USA (QF 3" 20cwt or 3" M7) were too heavy, and not great hole punchers.
So that led to the Vickers HV and 17 pdr for the next step up that might fit in a small OG M4 turret.
So it would be tried.
Or they shrug, and do major surgery to the turret, similar to what the Egyptians did with the T-34
1664893951513.jpeg

To get a 122mm in there
 

marathag

Banned
Yep. This time though, they have vehicles the US might think worth the effort to produce.

There's also the possibility that the USA might take some design tips from the Victor on how to mount the 76mm gun on a Sherman.
OTL, the US trialed the 76mm in the original turret, but found it too cramped for normal crew efficiency.
But could have been done, as proved with the 17pdr or later even higher powered French 75 in the Israeli Super Sherman, by making an armored box and moving the gun mantlet ahead of the turret ring and adding a counterweight to the rear
images
 
25 December 1941. Broadcast from London.
25 December 1941. Broadcast from London.

I am glad to think that millions of my people in all parts of the world are listening to me now. From my own home, with the Queen and my children beside me, I send to all a Christmas greeting.

Christmas is the festival at home, and it is right that we should remembers those who this year must spend it away from home. I am thinking, as I speak, of the men who have come from afar, standing ready to defend the old homeland, of the men who in every part of the world are serving the Empire and its cause with such valour and devotion by sea, land and in the air.

I am thinking of all those, women and girls as well as men, who at the call of duty have left their homes to join the services, or to work in factory, hospital or field. To each one of you, wherever your duty may be, I send you my remembrance and my sincere good wishes for you and for yours.

I do not forget what others have done and are doing so bravely in civil defence. My heart is also with those who are suffering – the wounded, the bereaved, the anxious, the prisoners of war. I think you know how deeply the Queen and I feel for them. May God give them comfort, courage and hope.

All these separations are part of the hard sacrifice which this war demands. It may well be that it will call for even greater sacrifices. If this is to be, let us face them cheerfully together. I think of you, my peoples, as one great family, for it is how we are learning to live. We all belong to each other. We all need each other. It is in serving each other and in sacrificing for our common good that we are finding our true life.

In that spirit we shall win the war, and in that same spirit we shall win for the world after the war a true and lasting peace. The greatness of any nation is in the spirit of its people. So it has always been since history began; so it shall be with us.

The range of the tremendous conflict is ever widening. It now extends to the Pacific. Truly it is a stern and solemn time. But as the war widens, so surely our conviction depends at the greatness of our cause.

We who belong to the present generation must bear the brunt of the struggle, and I would say to the coming generation, the boys and girls of today, the men and women of tomorrow – train yourselves in body, mind, and spirit so as to be ready for whatever part you may be called to play, and for the tasks which will await you as citizens of the Empire when the war is over.

We must all, older and younger, resolve that having been entrusted with so great a cause, then, at whatever cost, God helping us, we will not falter or fail. Make yourselves ready – in your home and school to give and to offer your very best.

We are coming to the end of another hard fought year. During these months our people have been through many trials, and in that true humanity which goes hand in hand with valour, have learnt once again to look for strength to God alone.

So I bid you all be strong and of a good courage. Go forward into this coming year with a good heart. Lift up your hearts with thankfulness for deliverance from dangers in the past. Lift up your hearts in confident hope that strength will be give us to overcome whatever perils may lie ahead until the victory is won.

If the skies before us are still dark and threatening, there are stars to guide us on our way. Never did heroism shine more brightly than it does now, nor fortitude, nor sacrifice, nor sympathy, nor neighbourly kindness, and with them – brightest of all stars – is our faith in God. These stars will we follow with His help until the light shall shine and the darkness shall collapse.

God bless you, everyone.



Actual Christmas Message of King George VI from here
 
26 December 1941. Carmen. Philippines.
26 December 1941. Carmen. Philippines.

The Provisional Tank Group (PTG) had arrived in the Philippines in September and November of 1941. Consisting of the 192nd and 194th Tank Battalions, each with fifty-four M3 Light Tanks. The two battalions were among the first to hear about the attack on Pearl Harbour on 7 December, and as they were assigned to defend Clark Field against a parachute attack. They were witnesses, and victims of the Japanese air attacks that had brought war to the Philippines.

Brig. Gen. James R.N. Weaver (GOC PTG) had taken the National Guard units sent from America and tried to prepare them for war. After the initial few days of confusion, 192nd Tank Battalion was ordered to support Major-General Wainwright (GOC Northern Luzon Force), but weren’t put under his command. As Wainwright attempted to deal with the invasion at Lingayen on 22 December, he ordered his main mobile force, 26th Cavalry Regiment of the Philippine Scouts, to Rosario. The Scout Car platoon, ahead of the main force of horsemen, moved through Damortis on the coastal road where they encountered Japanese tanks and reconnaissance troops, so they fell back towards Damortis, where the rest of 26th Cavalry were establishing positions to resist the Japanese, but prepared to fight a delaying action.

Colonel Pierce called on General Wainwright for help as his force was already struggling to contain the Japanese attack. Wainwright was warned that more Japanese forces were on their way to Damortis, Wainwright requested a company of tanks from Brig. Gen. Weaver. Because of a shortage of gasoline, Weaver could furnish only a platoon of five tanks from Company B, 192d Tank Battalion.

Moving forward, they clashed with Japanese light tanks. The lead tank, 2nd Lt Ben Morin’s, as it manoeuvred off the road, received a direct hit from a Japanese Medium tank and burst into flames. The day had begun badly for the American officer. He had been bombed by Japanese aircraft, and when he ordered the gunner to test fire his 37mm gun, but the gun had locked in recoil and remained inoperative. The other four tanks, all hit by 47-mm. antitank fire, succeeded in returning to Rosario. Morin and his crew surrendered to the Japanese, in the first combat between and American and Japanese tanks of the war, the victory was Japanese.

On December 23 and 24, the rest of B Company was in the area of Urdaneta. They were ordered to withdraw to the south of the Agno River, but found the main bridge had already been destroyed. Have to fight their way through Japanese troops early in the evening of Christmas Eve, successfully crossed the river in the Bayambang Province. Here they found the rest of 192nd Tank Battalion had taken up positions just south of the Agno River from Carmen to Tayung. The tanks of the 194th Tank Battalion which had also come forward, were holding the line on the Carmen-Alcala-Bautista Road.

On 26 December the whole area was the subject to an airstrike, followed swiftly by an assault on the river Agno positions after sunset. The Japanese, with artillery support, crossed the river, the M3 Light Tanks of 194th Tank Battalion were only carrying AP shot, the Japanese infantry being engaged by the machine guns on the tanks, but were unable to hold up the advance. Lt Harold Costigan’ platoon of C Company 194th TB recognised that there was a real possibility of being cut off, and ordered his tanks to withdraw. As they approached the barrio they came under heavy fire, and had to smash through a roadblock, where two tanks were lost, though the crews were picked up by the other tanks and escaped, though under fire until they were out of range.

This set the tone of the rest of the campaign for the tanks. The tank battalions found themselves in the role of holding positions so new defensive lines could be formed. Brig. Gen Weaver’s written command to his men was that:
“Tanks will execute maximum delay, staying in position and firing at visible enemy until further delay will jeopardize withdrawal. If a tank is immobilized, it will be fought until the close approach of the enemy, then destroyed; the crew previously taking positions outside and continuing to fight with the salvaged and personal weapons. Considerations of personal safety and expediency will not interfere with accomplishing the greatest possible delay.”
 
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