I suspect the British have watch over most of the beaches, plus a reserve of troops, which should make that hard to pull off.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
In an alien space bat timeline I dabbled with writing where Malaya went badly wrong for the Imperial Japanese, I had the Imperial Japanese try a second landing behind the lines with some of the original timeline shipping supposed to be doing stuff in the Dutch East Indies by then, but the sci-fi demigoddess of war they were fighting had figured out where they'd land and deployed the reserves to be waiting for them. (And heavily mined parts of the likeliest landing area, too.)
I hadn't made up my mind whether the carrier force would try to attack Singapore or discreetly retire to rearm and leave the army to suffer. It was due to go badly for the carrier group if they did try, on account of it not taking much anti-aircraft to do a lot of damage if you have someone with borderline Mary Sue 'fire and hit, even at a ridiculous distance' ('alien space bat sci-fi demigoddess of war', as I said) aiming skills.
Huh, with Mackay being given a more prominent role, with him being commander of Australian forces in the far east, there is a chance he might become a field marshal along with Blamey
There * might * be a contrary school of thought questioning if Australia has (or will have by the end of the war) enough troops in the field for two field marshals. I'm certainly not opposed, but I'm sure it'd come up. By way of comparison, how many post-war Field Marshals did Canada have?
The alternative might be Mackay instead of Blamey but if I understand right at the moment ITTL Blamey is OC 2nd AIF, so notionally Mackay's senior? If so it'd probably be a bit odd for someone junior to Blamey to end up a Field Marshal. I suppose it'd be a matter of post-war politics (and who survives the war)...
Canada has never had a Field Marshal. The rank has never been authorized in the Canadian Army.
Mark1878
Donor
Not really - most Field Marshals don't actually command.
I think 12 Field Marshalls are from war leaders. 3 actually commanded in that rank - Brooke as CIGS, Montgomery and Alexander. Three were political-military serving roles Dill and Wilson as representative to Allied Joint CGS and Wavell as Viceroy of India. The rest were purely political e.g. Smuts or as post service reward or a later CIGS in Slim.
I suspect it also matters how the general gets on with his political masters.
Being an Army Group Commander was not sufficient as shown by the leaders of 11th Army Group - either through not doing much or for Leese really annoying other generals.
So there is no limit if Mackay did well enough and lead a large number of troops and did not annoy Blamey or Austrailian politicians or any British superiors.
But against that no Canadian was promoted even though Crerar lead an Army.
Last edited:
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
The question of whether there will be a major navel engagement, in the South China Sea, around the Philippines or the Dutch East Indies, is an interesting one. First of the prominent reasons for this T/L, is the survival of J V Carden, and how this affects the development of predominately British tanks. And how this also affects development of tanks in both the Allied and Enemy nations While it requires some general consideration of the affects of the war in other areas, it doesn’t require much consideration of the war in the peripheries, such as the Atlantic, China or the Philippines and Pacific. Far more important to this story is tank developments in Britain, America, Germany and the Soviet Union, rather than the results of a navel battle off the North Cap of Norway, or around an island in the Pacific. However let’s consider the following question, what do the Japanese Navy do next after their major operation against the Americans at Pearl Harbour?
First and foremost the fleet that took part in the attack at Pearl Harbour, needs to return to its fleet bases in Japan and refuel and resupply. Nether Japan or anyone else at this time, has the extensive fleet train, that the Americans and to a much lesser extent the British had, later on in the war. While all the ships will require fuel and basic consumer items like water and food. Only the carriers will need ammunition, but even this depends on what there next mission will be. Filling their magazines with torpedoes, when they are set to attack land targets, would be foolish. Something to remember, do the ships have charts for the envisaged area of operations, its no good sending them to operate in the South China Sea, with charts for the Central Pacific. Yes the Carriers, Battleships and Cruisers, might have extensive chart lockers, but I doubt that the Destroyers do, or that everyone’s charts are fully up to date. And this takes us back on to the fundamental question, what are the Japanese plans, and how do they differ from those of OTL.
And until the Japanese have worked out what there next move is, the fleet is mostly going to retain in its home bases. Unlike the British and Americans, the Japanese do not have basically an endless supply of oil, to play with and allow their fleet to dash from here to there. So let us take the superstition that the Japanese decide to reenforce the army’s efforts in Malaya. The question then becomes how, do they carry out an attack against the British fleet base and major logistics centre at Singapore. Or do they launch an all out attack against Singapore, in an attempt to disable the British fleet, and destroy both the fleet base and the civilian port. However to get within effective attack range of Singapore, they not only have to drive deep into the South China Sea, they also have to pass one or more of the Dutch islands groups. Unlike the attack on Pearl Harbour, which the Japanese were able to plan and rehearse, and by travelling through empty ocean, and so achieve surprise. An attack on Singapore, even if they use a prepared plan, like all major military forces, the Japanese will have had various plans prepared for numerous contingencies. Would be very different from the Pearl Harbour attack, and even if everything went as planned, result in some serious losses to the Japanese fleet, for very little return.
As for trying to support the Japanese Army in their campaign in Malaya, this isn’t the Anglo American Navies of Korea or the American Navy of Vietnam IOTL. Unless the Japanese Army and Navy have worked out the protocols, for calling in air support, and have the communications set up to do so. Which given the intense rivalry between them, and the primitive communications of the time, is very unlikely, what are the Navy able to do, and at what cost. In Korea and Vietnam, the navel forces were able to operate at will, and with virtually no risk. Any Japanese force operation close to the Malayan coast, is going to face a major risk from British and Dutch submarines, and a minor risk from the RAF. Nor as I have said before, do the Japanese have the sort of extensive fleet train, that would enable them to operate for an extended time of the coast of Malaya. If they were to try to engage in a support mission for the army, or for another amphibious landing operation further along the coast. They will be able to stay on station for a matter of days at most, all the while being subjected to repeated attacks.
So will the Japanese Navel high command, deviate from their pre war plans, and send their principal fleet, into the constricted waters of the South China Sea. Or will they stick to their plan and prepare for the campaign against the DEI, while retaining the majority of the fleet in home waters. Personally I believe that they will probably reenforce the fleet sent to attack Borneo and the DEI, and not take the risk of sending their major fleet units against the British in Singapore. Sending the fleet into a potential trap against the one navy that the Japanese highly respected, one that had been their mentor during their formation, and alongside who they had fought during WWI, would not make sense to the high command. Were as driving for their principal target, the oil fields of Borneo and the DEI, would seem the way to go. Yes given that they know that the British have reinforced their fleet in Singapore they will themselves reenforce the fleet they send south. They might add two of their smaller carriers and a battleship to the fleet, along with cruisers and destroyers, but the problem they have is finding enough oil and tankers to support this enlarged fleet. With a British admiral in command, and the addition of a battlecruiser, plus a carrier, the Battle of the Sunda Strait’s might have a different outcome. But at the end of the day, all of this is just a side show, and it’s tank development that is the main point of TTL.
RR.
First and foremost the fleet that took part in the attack at Pearl Harbour, needs to return to its fleet bases in Japan and refuel and resupply. Nether Japan or anyone else at this time, has the extensive fleet train, that the Americans and to a much lesser extent the British had, later on in the war. While all the ships will require fuel and basic consumer items like water and food. Only the carriers will need ammunition, but even this depends on what there next mission will be. Filling their magazines with torpedoes, when they are set to attack land targets, would be foolish. Something to remember, do the ships have charts for the envisaged area of operations, its no good sending them to operate in the South China Sea, with charts for the Central Pacific. Yes the Carriers, Battleships and Cruisers, might have extensive chart lockers, but I doubt that the Destroyers do, or that everyone’s charts are fully up to date. And this takes us back on to the fundamental question, what are the Japanese plans, and how do they differ from those of OTL.
And until the Japanese have worked out what there next move is, the fleet is mostly going to retain in its home bases. Unlike the British and Americans, the Japanese do not have basically an endless supply of oil, to play with and allow their fleet to dash from here to there. So let us take the superstition that the Japanese decide to reenforce the army’s efforts in Malaya. The question then becomes how, do they carry out an attack against the British fleet base and major logistics centre at Singapore. Or do they launch an all out attack against Singapore, in an attempt to disable the British fleet, and destroy both the fleet base and the civilian port. However to get within effective attack range of Singapore, they not only have to drive deep into the South China Sea, they also have to pass one or more of the Dutch islands groups. Unlike the attack on Pearl Harbour, which the Japanese were able to plan and rehearse, and by travelling through empty ocean, and so achieve surprise. An attack on Singapore, even if they use a prepared plan, like all major military forces, the Japanese will have had various plans prepared for numerous contingencies. Would be very different from the Pearl Harbour attack, and even if everything went as planned, result in some serious losses to the Japanese fleet, for very little return.
As for trying to support the Japanese Army in their campaign in Malaya, this isn’t the Anglo American Navies of Korea or the American Navy of Vietnam IOTL. Unless the Japanese Army and Navy have worked out the protocols, for calling in air support, and have the communications set up to do so. Which given the intense rivalry between them, and the primitive communications of the time, is very unlikely, what are the Navy able to do, and at what cost. In Korea and Vietnam, the navel forces were able to operate at will, and with virtually no risk. Any Japanese force operation close to the Malayan coast, is going to face a major risk from British and Dutch submarines, and a minor risk from the RAF. Nor as I have said before, do the Japanese have the sort of extensive fleet train, that would enable them to operate for an extended time of the coast of Malaya. If they were to try to engage in a support mission for the army, or for another amphibious landing operation further along the coast. They will be able to stay on station for a matter of days at most, all the while being subjected to repeated attacks.
So will the Japanese Navel high command, deviate from their pre war plans, and send their principal fleet, into the constricted waters of the South China Sea. Or will they stick to their plan and prepare for the campaign against the DEI, while retaining the majority of the fleet in home waters. Personally I believe that they will probably reenforce the fleet sent to attack Borneo and the DEI, and not take the risk of sending their major fleet units against the British in Singapore. Sending the fleet into a potential trap against the one navy that the Japanese highly respected, one that had been their mentor during their formation, and alongside who they had fought during WWI, would not make sense to the high command. Were as driving for their principal target, the oil fields of Borneo and the DEI, would seem the way to go. Yes given that they know that the British have reinforced their fleet in Singapore they will themselves reenforce the fleet they send south. They might add two of their smaller carriers and a battleship to the fleet, along with cruisers and destroyers, but the problem they have is finding enough oil and tankers to support this enlarged fleet. With a British admiral in command, and the addition of a battlecruiser, plus a carrier, the Battle of the Sunda Strait’s might have a different outcome. But at the end of the day, all of this is just a side show, and it’s tank development that is the main point of TTL.
RR.
19 December 1941. North Atlantic
allanpcameron
Donor
19 December 1941. North Atlantic
The storm that HMS Duke of York had weathered over the previous few days had lessened, and so the Prime Minister Winston Churchill was able to sit down with his advisors to prepare for the upcoming conference with President Roosevelt. The British Chiefs of Staff, Admiral of the Fleet Sir Dudley Pound, The First Sea Lord; Field Marshal Sir John Dill, Chief of the Imperial General Staff; Air Chief Marshal Sir Charles Portal, Chief of the Air Staff, with their staffs had been going through everything that Britain needed and wanted from the United States of America now that it was a co-belligerent. Hitler’s declaration of war on the United States on 11 December had been the final piece of the jigsaw, now the USA was at war against both Germany and Japan, and all their friends.
Sir Dudley Pound’s main concern, as the First Sea Lord was the Battle of the Atlantic. While the Japanese threat in the Pacific was terrible, it was the Atlantic Ocean that really mattered. Japan was a bit like Italy, its navy was impressive, trained of course by the Royal Navy, and its army was reasonable. But its economy wasn’t large enough to cause real problems. It seemed their attack on Pearl Harbour, the Philippines and Malaya were all just to open up the path to the Dutch East Indies’ oil, as seen in Borneo. The loss of HMS Barham was regrettable, but not a disaster. The rest of Force Z, which would soon be reinforced from the Mediterranean and another two carriers would be a good basis for a combined British, American, Dutch and Australian force to confront that southward advance.
Pound’s worry was that the Americans wouldn’t cooperate with the need to organise a convoy system all along the Eastern Seaboard. If the German U-Boats got among the tankers coming up from Texas, it could be very dangerous. The attack on Pearl Harbour was a disaster, and it would immediately focus the mind of the USN to concentrate on the Pacific, but Pound needed them to keep enough strength in the Atlantic. Now that he had responsibility for the PQ convoy route to northern Russia, his ability to provide enough escorts across the Atlantic was even more desperate. If, as muted by the Prime Minister that the old R Class Battleships were to go to Ceylon, that would put even more pressure on escorting the high value convoys. Getting some kind of escort carriers to provide air cover in the mid-Atlantic gap was something else he had set his heart on.
The Fleet Air Arm was very happy with the Martlets they were getting from Grumman, and now that the folding wing variety were becoming available, he wanted the three carriers working in Force Z to have these as their main fighter aircraft. Pound had also spoken to ACM Portal about increasing the effectiveness of Coastal Command with long range aircraft and more Catalinas.
Field Marshall Dill knew that his tenure as CIGS was coming to an end, he was going to be staying in Washington to head the British Joint Staff Mission. He knew that the American Army was at an early stage of development, and that the tanks and guns that were being produced didn’t meet their own domestic needs, never mind that of the British and Soviets. Dill had been trying to talk the Prime Minister out of his fixation with helping the Soviets at the cost of British forces. The tanks that the Americans were supplying to Australia and to India had taken pressure off the build-up of British Armoured Divisions but promising 500 tanks per month to the Soviets was just impossible to achieve, unless the Americans could supply about 300 of them, and not at the expense of the Empire’s own needs.
The danger was that the success in North Africa could be undone by moving the focus from the Mediterranean and Middle East to some kind of Second Front long before the Americans, or indeed the British would be ready. Currently he had the support of the First Sea Lord in putting off Churchill’s notions of invading mainland Europe. They barely had enough landing ships to support a Brigade sized force, it would be summer before the Navy could support landing a Division across a beach. Dill also had approved Wavell’s plan to use the amphibious assets he had to clear some Italian islands, in the hope of eventually opening the Mediterranean up for cargo ships to pass through safely. Dill knew that Wavell’s plans would be the basis for learning some of the skills needed for an invasion of Europe. Dill didn’t want to dilute Wavell’s command to stop that from happening, which was the danger of giving everything to Auchinleck, where the supply situation was even worse. Dill needed the American Army to grow and develop so that when the invasion came there would be enough Divisions to be able to take on the Germans with a reasonable chance of success.
Getting the Americans bloodied against the Germans was also going to have to be looked at. Dill knew that General Marshall would be less than happy with his men going to the Mediterranean, but Dill knew that invading somewhere like Sicily would be a good place to start. If Auchinleck wanted all the support needed for Malaya, Burma and to help the Dutch, having the Suez Canal route open would make life a lot easier.
With regards the Soviets, Dill had already fought Churchill over sending British troops to either the northern or southern fronts. Building up 10th Army in Persia was all very well, but 8th Army was needed where it was, not swanning off to Southern Russia. Dill was open to 10th Army taking over responsibility for the defence of Baku, to keep the oil flowing. If the Germans did get over the Caucasus Mountains, then the threat wouldn’t stop at Baku.
Air Chief Marshall Charles Portal had two priorities from the RAF’s point of view. The build-up of heavy bomber squadrons wasn’t progressing as fast as he wanted. The largest number of bomber aircraft he had been able to throw against the Germans at any given point was about 250. Rhubarb and Circus daylight operations over France and the Low Countries were disappointing in results and costly in terms of pilots and aircraft. The Prime Minister’s commitment to supplying aircraft to Russia meant that he only had about 100 more fighter aircraft defending British skies than at the height of the Battle of Britain.
Portal’s first priority therefore was the desperate need to get more aircraft. While the situation in the Middle East had improved dramatically, AM Tedder knew that 1942 would be a time for even greater efforts. He wanted Spitfires for Malta, more bombers to support the navy and its plans for an island hoping campaign to remove Italy from the picture altogether. In the light of the situation in Malaya and Burma, the decision to send 200 Tomahawks to the Far East rather than Russia, was prophetic. However, it would take time for them to become operational, and the arrival of the Kittyhawks (P40E) couldn’t come soon enough.
The first Airacobras (P39D) that had been delivered to Britain were considered very unsatisfactory. Portal wanted them all sent to Russia. The North American Mustang Mark I (NA-73) looked like a better bet for Army Cooperation squadrons than the Airacobras. Of the American fighters bought so far, the Brewster Buffalo was very poor, the Curtiss Mohawk was obsolete, only the later Curtiss aircraft could be considered first line aircraft. The order for the Lockheed Lightning (P38) had already been cancelled, at least now, with the USAAF taking possession of the Lightning I for their own use, would halt Lockheed’s somewhat bitter attempt to hold the British to their order for 15 million US Dollars.
The Boeing B17 would be a good addition to Bomber Command, but the Americans were taking all the new builds for their own USAAF, especially in the Pacific. The new Consolidated Liberator (LB30A) was also a potentially excellent aircraft to supplement Coastal Command. In addition to adding American bombers to Bomber Command, Portal wanted to see a commitment from the Americans to provide bombers and escort fighters to Britain to hit the German war effort. He also wanted as many medium bombers as he could get his hands on. The Blenheims were suffering badly, and the Martin Maryland and Baltimore were obvious replacements. The B25 and B26 were likely to be even better than the Martins, and Portal wanted early access to these. The Douglas Havoc/Boston (DB7/DB7B) were useful, but probably of more use to the Soviets.
The second priority was to make sure that the British orders, especially those bought and paid for before Lend-Lease would be fulfilled. The American aircraft plants were still being developed and there weren’t enough aircraft being built to satisfy the demand for the USAAF, the British orders, and Lend-Lease to both Britain and the Soviet Union. Portal knew that Churchill wanted to show the Soviets that Britain was sacrificing its own build up to support the Red Army as much as possible. There was no real prospect of a Second Front anytime soon. Portal thought that was all very well but increasing the bomber fleet would cause the Germans problems, and make the Luftwaffe divide its strength between the Eastern and Western Fronts.
The Prime Minister had heard all these points rehearsed again and again. He for one would be glad to be rid of Field Marshall Dill, the man had had the cheek to suggest that his idea of a strong force raiding France was akin to another Gallipoli. There were political as well as military aims in this war. While the Chiefs of Staff would all fight their own corners, Churchill had to woo Roosevelt and placate Stalin. Churchill knew just fine that an invasion of the continent would be impossible before spring or summer of 1943. The thought of trying to get thousands of American soldiers over the Atlantic with the U-boat menace as it currently stood was a nightmare. He agreed with Dill in so far as it would take time before the American army was properly trained and equipped.
Right now, Churchill could see that the Soviets, who were at the throats of the Nazis at the very gates of Moscow, needed to be supported. If Russia could once again to do the current European dictator what they had done to Napoleon, then the German menace would be defeated, once and for all. If that meant delaying the equipping of British Armoured Divisions, then so be it, as long as they were ready by 1943. Churchill was a bit surprised by Wavell’s plan. He’d never been a fan of the man, but what he and O’Connor had achieved in Africa was exceptional. Clearing the lesser Italian islands in 1942, until enough shipping could be made available for an assault on Sicily was just the kind of thing that the public needed to see. Holding up the Japanese in Malaya; being on the offensive in the Mediterranean; winning the Battle of the Atlantic; supporting the Soviets; bombing Germany; these were the things that would keep the sacrifices that were being asked of the British peoples from being resented.
Churchill knew he had to keep the Soviets in the fight. America however was the key. Only with their full economic might being brought to bear would tip the balance wholly in favour of the United Nations. All the Sterling investments in American industry to build planes and tanks and trucks would eventually be recouped. Yes, it would be painful, but with the forces of the British Empire, the might of American production, and the sacrifice of the Soviets, Hitler and Tojo would be consigned to the dustbin of history. Between September 1939 and December 1941, twenty-seven months of war had been endured. It would take at least that long again to win. With an American mother, Winston Churchill was sure that going to Washington and trying to boss them about, as his Chiefs of Staff seemed to think they could, would have the opposite effect.
The Americans were being asked to support a Communist country, something that innately went against the grain. They were also being asked to support an Empire of which they had once been thirteen colonies of and had fought a war against to ‘throw off the shackles.’ If King George VI’s Government was to present itself as if it were King George III’s, then any kind of ‘special relationship’ that Churchill was trying to build with Roosevelt would be torpedoed. While they weren’t coming to Washington as beggars at the table, Churchill wanted to make sure that the Chiefs of Staff didn’t think of the United States of America was to be at the beck and call of the British. Teamwork, cooperation, compromise would all be needed, otherwise the conferences were likely to be as stormy as the North Atlantic they were passing through. The ship could not be allowed to flounder, that was Churchill’s obsession.
The storm that HMS Duke of York had weathered over the previous few days had lessened, and so the Prime Minister Winston Churchill was able to sit down with his advisors to prepare for the upcoming conference with President Roosevelt. The British Chiefs of Staff, Admiral of the Fleet Sir Dudley Pound, The First Sea Lord; Field Marshal Sir John Dill, Chief of the Imperial General Staff; Air Chief Marshal Sir Charles Portal, Chief of the Air Staff, with their staffs had been going through everything that Britain needed and wanted from the United States of America now that it was a co-belligerent. Hitler’s declaration of war on the United States on 11 December had been the final piece of the jigsaw, now the USA was at war against both Germany and Japan, and all their friends.
Sir Dudley Pound’s main concern, as the First Sea Lord was the Battle of the Atlantic. While the Japanese threat in the Pacific was terrible, it was the Atlantic Ocean that really mattered. Japan was a bit like Italy, its navy was impressive, trained of course by the Royal Navy, and its army was reasonable. But its economy wasn’t large enough to cause real problems. It seemed their attack on Pearl Harbour, the Philippines and Malaya were all just to open up the path to the Dutch East Indies’ oil, as seen in Borneo. The loss of HMS Barham was regrettable, but not a disaster. The rest of Force Z, which would soon be reinforced from the Mediterranean and another two carriers would be a good basis for a combined British, American, Dutch and Australian force to confront that southward advance.
Pound’s worry was that the Americans wouldn’t cooperate with the need to organise a convoy system all along the Eastern Seaboard. If the German U-Boats got among the tankers coming up from Texas, it could be very dangerous. The attack on Pearl Harbour was a disaster, and it would immediately focus the mind of the USN to concentrate on the Pacific, but Pound needed them to keep enough strength in the Atlantic. Now that he had responsibility for the PQ convoy route to northern Russia, his ability to provide enough escorts across the Atlantic was even more desperate. If, as muted by the Prime Minister that the old R Class Battleships were to go to Ceylon, that would put even more pressure on escorting the high value convoys. Getting some kind of escort carriers to provide air cover in the mid-Atlantic gap was something else he had set his heart on.
The Fleet Air Arm was very happy with the Martlets they were getting from Grumman, and now that the folding wing variety were becoming available, he wanted the three carriers working in Force Z to have these as their main fighter aircraft. Pound had also spoken to ACM Portal about increasing the effectiveness of Coastal Command with long range aircraft and more Catalinas.
Field Marshall Dill knew that his tenure as CIGS was coming to an end, he was going to be staying in Washington to head the British Joint Staff Mission. He knew that the American Army was at an early stage of development, and that the tanks and guns that were being produced didn’t meet their own domestic needs, never mind that of the British and Soviets. Dill had been trying to talk the Prime Minister out of his fixation with helping the Soviets at the cost of British forces. The tanks that the Americans were supplying to Australia and to India had taken pressure off the build-up of British Armoured Divisions but promising 500 tanks per month to the Soviets was just impossible to achieve, unless the Americans could supply about 300 of them, and not at the expense of the Empire’s own needs.
The danger was that the success in North Africa could be undone by moving the focus from the Mediterranean and Middle East to some kind of Second Front long before the Americans, or indeed the British would be ready. Currently he had the support of the First Sea Lord in putting off Churchill’s notions of invading mainland Europe. They barely had enough landing ships to support a Brigade sized force, it would be summer before the Navy could support landing a Division across a beach. Dill also had approved Wavell’s plan to use the amphibious assets he had to clear some Italian islands, in the hope of eventually opening the Mediterranean up for cargo ships to pass through safely. Dill knew that Wavell’s plans would be the basis for learning some of the skills needed for an invasion of Europe. Dill didn’t want to dilute Wavell’s command to stop that from happening, which was the danger of giving everything to Auchinleck, where the supply situation was even worse. Dill needed the American Army to grow and develop so that when the invasion came there would be enough Divisions to be able to take on the Germans with a reasonable chance of success.
Getting the Americans bloodied against the Germans was also going to have to be looked at. Dill knew that General Marshall would be less than happy with his men going to the Mediterranean, but Dill knew that invading somewhere like Sicily would be a good place to start. If Auchinleck wanted all the support needed for Malaya, Burma and to help the Dutch, having the Suez Canal route open would make life a lot easier.
With regards the Soviets, Dill had already fought Churchill over sending British troops to either the northern or southern fronts. Building up 10th Army in Persia was all very well, but 8th Army was needed where it was, not swanning off to Southern Russia. Dill was open to 10th Army taking over responsibility for the defence of Baku, to keep the oil flowing. If the Germans did get over the Caucasus Mountains, then the threat wouldn’t stop at Baku.
Air Chief Marshall Charles Portal had two priorities from the RAF’s point of view. The build-up of heavy bomber squadrons wasn’t progressing as fast as he wanted. The largest number of bomber aircraft he had been able to throw against the Germans at any given point was about 250. Rhubarb and Circus daylight operations over France and the Low Countries were disappointing in results and costly in terms of pilots and aircraft. The Prime Minister’s commitment to supplying aircraft to Russia meant that he only had about 100 more fighter aircraft defending British skies than at the height of the Battle of Britain.
Portal’s first priority therefore was the desperate need to get more aircraft. While the situation in the Middle East had improved dramatically, AM Tedder knew that 1942 would be a time for even greater efforts. He wanted Spitfires for Malta, more bombers to support the navy and its plans for an island hoping campaign to remove Italy from the picture altogether. In the light of the situation in Malaya and Burma, the decision to send 200 Tomahawks to the Far East rather than Russia, was prophetic. However, it would take time for them to become operational, and the arrival of the Kittyhawks (P40E) couldn’t come soon enough.
The first Airacobras (P39D) that had been delivered to Britain were considered very unsatisfactory. Portal wanted them all sent to Russia. The North American Mustang Mark I (NA-73) looked like a better bet for Army Cooperation squadrons than the Airacobras. Of the American fighters bought so far, the Brewster Buffalo was very poor, the Curtiss Mohawk was obsolete, only the later Curtiss aircraft could be considered first line aircraft. The order for the Lockheed Lightning (P38) had already been cancelled, at least now, with the USAAF taking possession of the Lightning I for their own use, would halt Lockheed’s somewhat bitter attempt to hold the British to their order for 15 million US Dollars.
The Boeing B17 would be a good addition to Bomber Command, but the Americans were taking all the new builds for their own USAAF, especially in the Pacific. The new Consolidated Liberator (LB30A) was also a potentially excellent aircraft to supplement Coastal Command. In addition to adding American bombers to Bomber Command, Portal wanted to see a commitment from the Americans to provide bombers and escort fighters to Britain to hit the German war effort. He also wanted as many medium bombers as he could get his hands on. The Blenheims were suffering badly, and the Martin Maryland and Baltimore were obvious replacements. The B25 and B26 were likely to be even better than the Martins, and Portal wanted early access to these. The Douglas Havoc/Boston (DB7/DB7B) were useful, but probably of more use to the Soviets.
The second priority was to make sure that the British orders, especially those bought and paid for before Lend-Lease would be fulfilled. The American aircraft plants were still being developed and there weren’t enough aircraft being built to satisfy the demand for the USAAF, the British orders, and Lend-Lease to both Britain and the Soviet Union. Portal knew that Churchill wanted to show the Soviets that Britain was sacrificing its own build up to support the Red Army as much as possible. There was no real prospect of a Second Front anytime soon. Portal thought that was all very well but increasing the bomber fleet would cause the Germans problems, and make the Luftwaffe divide its strength between the Eastern and Western Fronts.
The Prime Minister had heard all these points rehearsed again and again. He for one would be glad to be rid of Field Marshall Dill, the man had had the cheek to suggest that his idea of a strong force raiding France was akin to another Gallipoli. There were political as well as military aims in this war. While the Chiefs of Staff would all fight their own corners, Churchill had to woo Roosevelt and placate Stalin. Churchill knew just fine that an invasion of the continent would be impossible before spring or summer of 1943. The thought of trying to get thousands of American soldiers over the Atlantic with the U-boat menace as it currently stood was a nightmare. He agreed with Dill in so far as it would take time before the American army was properly trained and equipped.
Right now, Churchill could see that the Soviets, who were at the throats of the Nazis at the very gates of Moscow, needed to be supported. If Russia could once again to do the current European dictator what they had done to Napoleon, then the German menace would be defeated, once and for all. If that meant delaying the equipping of British Armoured Divisions, then so be it, as long as they were ready by 1943. Churchill was a bit surprised by Wavell’s plan. He’d never been a fan of the man, but what he and O’Connor had achieved in Africa was exceptional. Clearing the lesser Italian islands in 1942, until enough shipping could be made available for an assault on Sicily was just the kind of thing that the public needed to see. Holding up the Japanese in Malaya; being on the offensive in the Mediterranean; winning the Battle of the Atlantic; supporting the Soviets; bombing Germany; these were the things that would keep the sacrifices that were being asked of the British peoples from being resented.
Churchill knew he had to keep the Soviets in the fight. America however was the key. Only with their full economic might being brought to bear would tip the balance wholly in favour of the United Nations. All the Sterling investments in American industry to build planes and tanks and trucks would eventually be recouped. Yes, it would be painful, but with the forces of the British Empire, the might of American production, and the sacrifice of the Soviets, Hitler and Tojo would be consigned to the dustbin of history. Between September 1939 and December 1941, twenty-seven months of war had been endured. It would take at least that long again to win. With an American mother, Winston Churchill was sure that going to Washington and trying to boss them about, as his Chiefs of Staff seemed to think they could, would have the opposite effect.
The Americans were being asked to support a Communist country, something that innately went against the grain. They were also being asked to support an Empire of which they had once been thirteen colonies of and had fought a war against to ‘throw off the shackles.’ If King George VI’s Government was to present itself as if it were King George III’s, then any kind of ‘special relationship’ that Churchill was trying to build with Roosevelt would be torpedoed. While they weren’t coming to Washington as beggars at the table, Churchill wanted to make sure that the Chiefs of Staff didn’t think of the United States of America was to be at the beck and call of the British. Teamwork, cooperation, compromise would all be needed, otherwise the conferences were likely to be as stormy as the North Atlantic they were passing through. The ship could not be allowed to flounder, that was Churchill’s obsession.
Interesting. They seem to have a solid plan. Limited operation in the Mediterranean, at least until they can build up sufficiently to hit Sicily. Simply defending in the Far East will wreck the Japanese. Supporting the Soviets will keep the Germans concentrated in the East. One thing that will have an impact later, if they can make a limited landing in Europe in 1943, the Atlantic Wall will be far less complete, though this might be countered by the Germans not being quite as worn down.
I just had a thought to sounding board off the group....
There seems to be an unquestioned truth that if the Germans had militarily defeated the Soviets, then the war for the allies would be much more costly as troops would automatically be released for the Western Front.
What just leapt to mind was the lesson of Iraq which is that the invading army actually needed far more forces to successfully occupy the nation, than it did to destroy their military.
Has anyone modelled what the requirements of "occupying the Soviet Union" would have actually lookes like? A nation that size having seen the cruelty of Nazism with plentiful small arms would be an absolute nightmare for the Wehrmacht.
There seems to be an unquestioned truth that if the Germans had militarily defeated the Soviets, then the war for the allies would be much more costly as troops would automatically be released for the Western Front.
What just leapt to mind was the lesson of Iraq which is that the invading army actually needed far more forces to successfully occupy the nation, than it did to destroy their military.
Has anyone modelled what the requirements of "occupying the Soviet Union" would have actually lookes like? A nation that size having seen the cruelty of Nazism with plentiful small arms would be an absolute nightmare for the Wehrmacht.
just imagine they had used their brain just a little bit more and welcomed all those deserters, and went into the ukraine as liberators .
In that case i suppose the Ukrainians probably would love to be part of that occupation force in russia (at the detriment of the russians though). and the nazis just being a little less cruel would have helped greatly, all that was needed was the nazis being less scary than stalin & berias troops and many russians would also have welcomed them. but then again, then they probably wouldn't be nazis anymore
Nor did they have intentions to.
I don’t think comparisons with Iraq are all that useful. There were rules of engagement in Iraq, and I’m fairly sure that none of them were “in case of partisan attacks, go to nearest settlement, kill or enslave all men, rape and enslave all women and girls, shove all the old and very young into a convenient building then set it on fire.”
Right.
I more mean that even if they wanted to, they could not have turned the Ukrainians into willing allies/partners/clients/etc. There's no such thing as a compliant and starving occupied population.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Could the Germans by being nicer towards the Ukrainians and other Soviet subjects, have avoided the persistent guerrilla problems, that they encountered and suffered from. To which the answer is basically No, as the problem for the Germans wasn’t basically ideological, it was fundamentally economic. Britain which had a very backward agricultural sector, was able to import the majority of its food requirements, and during the war was able to switch its industry from production of fertilisers, to explosives. While importing the fertilisers it needed from predominately Canada, along with substantial amounts of food. The German agricultural sector was in many ways even more primitive than the British, and Germany was like Britain reliant on imports to feed its population. It had tried during the Nazi era to reduce the reliance, via the substitution of real food products for ersatz, and attempts to improve their agricultural sector, which comprehensively failed. The national drink of Britain is tea, which while rationed, was never substituted during the war. While the national drink of Germany was coffee, which was predominately replaced with various decidedly inferior ersatz substitutes during the war. One of the things that SOE took into Europe to bribe various officials with, was fresh coffee.
The British were able to modernise their agricultural sector, during the war, principally by mechanising, by replacing draft animals with tractors. Not only were the Germans unable to do this, even if they could have, they didn’t have the fuel to spare to power the tractors. By early 41, the Germans were facing an increasing food crisis, and even with the imports from the Soviet Union, and by stripping the captured territories of as much as they could, which caused starvation in Greece. They were looking at having to reduce the rations in Germany, to close to starvation levels, and there was no way that Hitler was going to see another Turnip winter, such as had taken place in WWI. The plan was for the German Army, like a mongol horde to live off the land, thus reducing the pressure on the home food supply. While at the same time extracting as much food for the newly conquered territories as they could,and shipping it home to Germany. What happened to the indigenous people, wasn’t a consideration, while the peasants were to be feed enough to keep them alive. The residents of the cities along with such useless mouths as Jews, the elderly and the mentally and physically infirm, were to die of starvation. That was the basic plan, and there was no way to change it, that didn’t involve starvation and possibly revolution in Germany.
RR.
The British were able to modernise their agricultural sector, during the war, principally by mechanising, by replacing draft animals with tractors. Not only were the Germans unable to do this, even if they could have, they didn’t have the fuel to spare to power the tractors. By early 41, the Germans were facing an increasing food crisis, and even with the imports from the Soviet Union, and by stripping the captured territories of as much as they could, which caused starvation in Greece. They were looking at having to reduce the rations in Germany, to close to starvation levels, and there was no way that Hitler was going to see another Turnip winter, such as had taken place in WWI. The plan was for the German Army, like a mongol horde to live off the land, thus reducing the pressure on the home food supply. While at the same time extracting as much food for the newly conquered territories as they could,and shipping it home to Germany. What happened to the indigenous people, wasn’t a consideration, while the peasants were to be feed enough to keep them alive. The residents of the cities along with such useless mouths as Jews, the elderly and the mentally and physically infirm, were to die of starvation. That was the basic plan, and there was no way to change it, that didn’t involve starvation and possibly revolution in Germany.
RR.