Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

I don't suppose anyone would be able translate some Japanese map writing? This is from the map on Wiki.
The bottom left of the map is Betong in Thailand and the Patang river and road along it was part of Operation Krohcol. I'd like to know what the description of road is, and what the small settlements are called, basically whatever I've circled. I know it might be a long shot, but if anyone knows anyone...
Thanks
Allan
Japanesemap4.gif
 
The Soviet Union was still holding the line at Moscow and Leningrad. Not just holding the line, word of a counterattack beginning would hopefully push the Germans back. Getting British and American support to Stalin would be a major headache, but so far, the first few Artic convoys had been successful, without loss.
Minor spelling mistake. Great update otherwise.
 
I hope that they transfer the Desert airforce planes and pilots or at least planes to the FE they may be slightly worn out but any thing is better than nothing the pilots of the Desert Air Force have done a lot of inter service cooperation and almost have it down to a T.

When I was a youngster one of my grandfathers used to tell me about his time on HMS Repulse he laughed when he got to the part of avoiding the first lot of torpedoes he was thrown on the deck on the signal bridge and broke his arm. He was rather upset that when he went over the side into the water the chap who helped him in the water did not make it he died just as one of the destroyers started picking up the lads in the water. He managed to get back to the U.K. on one of the last boats out. My other grandfather was seconded to the I Indian Army and sadly was taken prisoner when Persival lost his bottle and surrendered he was very bitter that we surrendered he did not have a good time as a POW I used to hate staying over with home every single night he screamed in his sleep they totally broke him he hated every thing about Japan and strangely the I Indian troops that went over to the Japs at some point his own troops guarded part of his camp and a according to him they treated the English and Australian troops badly. For many many years both of them refused to touch any thing from Japan he did how ever meet up with some of his ex troops in India after the war they were very apologetic but deep down he did not believe them. Ironical my father also served in Burma he was a EOD officer he used to say when asked where he served and apparently said the forgotten army which in away was true. My mother was one of the ferry pilots in the UK we did have an old film of her barrel rolling a Spitfire which she got into a lot of trouble. Mum and dad did not marry until the early sixties unfortunately dad went to work doing the shot blasting and gave instruction’s that if the Hostpital am saying mum was in Labuer that he should be told after his ship sadly some idiot missed out on the instruction and sent a message down to the coal face dad got the message and rushed setting the shot and boom no more dad . The idiot that passed the message was sacked on the spot. In the crew room where they changed there was a large chalk board with all the daily brief on it the prat did not read it and did not put his pit number in the check box. So any thing to do with the FE is of great interest to me.
 
I hope that they transfer the Desert airforce planes and pilots or at least planes to the FE they may be slightly worn out but any thing is better than nothing the pilots of the Desert Air Force have done a lot of inter service cooperation and almost have it down to a T.

When I was a youngster ...
Thanks for that @freelander, that is an extraordinary family history. Thank you for reminding me that this fiction is based on the real experiences of horror of so many.
Allan
 
While victory in Africa is a significant achievement complared to OTL, one cannot help but think that the people in this timeline only have WWI to compare the current war to. As such, I expect many to consider this a somewhat hollow victory, especially observers from the other side of the pond.

That said, having forces in place to punish a Japanese assault would lead to very interesting ripples, especially if the yanks still get caught with their pants down in Pearl Harbour.
 
Wonder if the PoW will survive this time out east, a few years back I met someone who served on her at the both when she went out with the Hood and also when she sailed out with force Z and managed to get off when she was sunk thanks to a tramp steamer.

From there he barely stayed ahead of the Japanese and when he finally got to Sri Lanka he got put on an aircraft carrier after that he went elsewhere and was one of the weather men for Overlord.
 
7 December 1941. Tamworth, Australia.
7 December 1941. Tamworth, Australia.

1st Australian Armoured Brigade (1st AAB) arrived at its new training area. Having had less than a month together at Greta Army Camp in New South Wales, the Brigade HQ and the three armoured regiments (2/5th, 2/6th, 2/7th) along with 15th Motor Regiment (Northern River Lancers) had, for the first time, come together as a whole. The vast majority of training that had been accomplished so far in Armoured Fighting Vehicles courses only included officers and NCOs. The maintenance of tanks, and the training of soldiers as drivers, gunners, loaders, wireless operators, mechanics, and all the other roles needed in an armoured formation, was still at an early stage.

The good news was that they had 166 American built M3 Light Tanks (named for General Stuart). The Continental R-670 radial engine in the tank, was found to require very high levels of maintenance, and while the Americans had sent a large number of technicians to help the Australian Army, the lack of basic mechanical training was an issue. Two Divisional Cavalry Regiments (8th and 9th) had had priority in receiving the M3s, so 1st Armoured Brigade were just catching up.

The theory and practice of armoured warfare had been studied intensively, the Divisional GOC (Major-General John Northcott) had spent two months with 7th Armoured Division, and had managed to bring with him some officers, NCOs and other ranks from 7th Armoured who were recovering from wounds to help train the new Australian tankies. 1st AAB was commanded by Brigadier Fred Hinton. He’d previously commanded 4th Australian Cavalry Brigade, and had very particular ideas about how his Brigade was to be run. He had gone to England in 1939 to undertake various attachments, including to 17th/21st Lancers, which were still awaiting their tanks at that point. Having commanded the Recruitment Reception Depot at Sydney Showground, he had been chosen by Northcott to command the 1st Armoured Brigade.

Now that he had the men and the machines, the next phase was to work together as a Brigade. He had set up a number of exercises that would push his men to their limits. Whether in the Army at Gallipoli or Passchendaele, or as a sheep farmer, Hinton wanted to excel, and that was what he expected of his command. Major-General Northcott had shared with Hinton that when the Division was set up, it was expected to be shipped with the rest of the Australian Imperial Force to the Middle East. Now that campaign had come to an end, it seemed that the threat the Division would have to face would be the Japanese, either in Malaya, or even in defence of Australia itself.

Northcott, Hinton and William Locke (CO 2nd AAB) had talked over how best to prepare themselves and their men for the tasks ahead. Locke’s Brigade had taken delivery of the first 12 M3 Medium tanks (named for General Grant) from America. Until then his men had been training on universal carriers. Because the Stuart tanks were arriving first, Northcott had decided to have 1st AAB totally equipped with the Light tanks, and 2nd AAB to have the Medium tanks as they arrived. Eventually the home grown Jumbuck tanks would equip the Division, but in the meantime they would be using the American designs. There had been some dubiety about the effectiveness of the Stuart and Grant, but everything they could find about Japanese tanks suggested that they would be more than adequate to go up against them.

Northcott had also had a warning sent that he may have to put together two Independent Squadrons for immediate deployment. Hinton recognised that 2/6th Armoured Regiment (AAR) was the furthest along in its training. Lt-Col Charles Hodgson (CO 2/6th AAR) had been asked which of his squadrons he felt would be capable of action. His response was that A and B Squadrons would likely be the best choice, Northcott thanked him and asked that those two squadrons be advised of the potential to be shipped overseas. Hinton expressed his worry that his force would be sent off piecemeal. Northcott agreed that wouldn’t be something he’d want either.

Going back to the issue of training, one of Northcott’s aides had been looking around for a place where the whole Division could train together. He had identified Narrabri in New South Wales as a potential training area, which Northcott had requested Canberra to organise. Locke’s 2nd AAB were located at Puckapunyal, Victoria, with some elements attending training at Greta Army Camp. Having somewhere to have the whole Division co-located with plenty of space for exercises was a priority for Northcott. Once both Brigades were fully equipped they would need to use the exercises to see whether they would need to mix two types of tanks to make for a more balanced force structure.

The last issue was the formation of the Support Group, or a Motor Brigade as was now the preference. The Light Horse regiments were likely to be the foundation of Motor Regiments, just as 15th Motor Regiment (Northern River Lancers) had done. Brigadier Hinton was keen on his old 4th Cavalry Brigade (6th, 7th and 14th Light Horse) becoming 4th Motor Brigade. Northcott wasn’t particularly fussy about whichever Cavalry Brigade he got, as long as he got one in a reasonable amount of time and with a reasonable amount of training and equipment. The whole Australian army was trying to do the same, get the equipment and train for war.
 
Can I just note that I have been and will continue to use the local dates and times whenever there is an entry. 7 December 1941 in Hawaii isn't the same day as 7 December on the other side of the International Date Line...
Allan.
 
Can I just note that I have been and will continue to use the local dates and times whenever there is an entry. 7 December 1941 in Hawaii isn't the same day as 7 December on the other side of the International Date Line...
Allan.
Yes, the Japanese landed in Siam and Malaya in the early hours of December 8th 1941 before the attack on Pearl Harbour on December 7th 1941. The above post set in Australia is the day before the Japanese attack.
 
Yes, the Japanese landed in Siam and Malaya in the early hours of December 8th 1941 before the attack on Pearl Harbour on December 7th 1941. The above post set in Australia is the day before the Japanese attack.
So in Malaya the "Day of Infamy" was the day before which hasn't happened yet - aargh!
Must have made coordinating operations fun.

Still could be worse - during the Napoleonic wars some allies were using different calendars 😕
 
Well if the malaysia landing can be defeated and it seems that it should be defeated thanks to extra tanks then you have to mainly worry about the thai landings and those can be slowed down very much even if you only blow up the ledge in thailand . In otl it was a very close run thing and the tanks and more organized troops should make enough of a diffrence.

And the two indian divisons have been reinforced by 2 brigades from probably the best indian divison of the army who have been kicking italians like there is no tomorrow sofar wich should help alot in stiffening the two indian divisons i think compared to otl ?

Cause in otl i think the divison was in the middle east and then you have the matilda tank brigade wich wasnt a thing in otl, matildas are almost ideal to fight japanese with since they were designed as infantry tanks and thats whats needed against the japanese rather than cruiser tanks .

I imagine at worst for the brits the japanese will be very slowed down compared to otl and now that the african theatre is pretty much over there is alot of reinforcements available if things can be dragged out.

Altough defending the dutch east indies wont be fun at all .

The british need more carriers honestly even if they survive trying to gut punch the invasion fleets compared to their otl fate , my hope is that the carrier doesnt get damaged but maybe one of the nelsons class sinks and the other gets damaged maybe would make sense from the land based planes wich could help convince the admirality to concetrate carriers in the far east . I wouldnt want to fight the japanese without a big british naval pod , but nighttime carrier strike might still work and the british are the only ones who could do this. And sacrificing a few carriers if you can trade at a similar ratio against the kido butai would be worth the losses to be honest in a convential battle.

Honestly they could send a special convoy with a tank brigade or two of matildas on the home islands to the far east when they get the news about the japanese invasion . It would take like a month to arrive , depending if they go through to med and how fast it is. And you might be also be able to send a divison or two of infantry from the middle east i imagine now that the italians have been kicked out rather quickly aswell . The middle east command problem isnt troops especially now , rather its the shipping to do invasions now i would think . Maybe go do a rhodes invasion or other island invasions near greece during early spring before doing sicily like summer 1942 and maybe mainly cause the british would get distratced by sending resources to the east to defend the empire rather building up the med theatre somewhat to explain their slowness ? And to get some american participation for sicily , i imagine british high command arent super thrilled fighting the southern strategy alone no matter what churchill thinks .

De gaulle could be replaced i guess but he should still be a very important general for the french i think , especially if he falls back to that role and he kinda is the expert asfar i can tell for tanks for the french . He could command a armored corps when the free french land in france and maybe a army even . He should still have a pretty good political career post war but maybe not as dominant as otl i guess?
 
Last edited:
I don't suppose anyone would be able translate some Japanese map writing? This is from the map on Wiki.
The bottom left of the map is Betong in Thailand and the Patang river and road along it was part of Operation Krohcol. I'd like to know what the description of road is, and what the small settlements are called, basically whatever I've circled. I know it might be a long shot, but if anyone knows anyone...
Thanks
Allan
View attachment 770895
working on it...
 
So when MacArthur gets ordered out he goes on a British sub and ends up in Singapore?
Unlikely. OTL, he categorically refused to evacuate the Philippines by submarine. MacArthur would probably try to escape from Corregidor in a rowboat before voluntarily setting foot in a British submarine.
 
Last edited:
De gaulle could be replaced i guess but he should still be a very important general for the french i think , especially if he falls back to that role and he kinda is the expert asfar i can tell for tanks for the french . He could command a armored corps when the free french land in france and maybe a army even . He should still have a pretty good political career post war but maybe not as dominant as otl i guess?
Pretty much if he gets replaced his Poltical Career won't be as it was OTL. Though I'm concerned if French North Africa, Syria and the Other colonies jump for the allies we will have a fight for who gets to wear the Fancy Fancy hat of being the head of the Free French forces and what passes for a civil government.

@allanpcameron I know you want to focus on armoured warfare and tank development in particular but politically how will things shake out with a mind to things like Yalta and Tehran Conferences especially if the British and Commonwealth hold out east? I mean I can't see them being as sidelined as they were OTL also without the desperation moves that happened OTL with the Goverment when the Africa Korps really pants the British in the desert OTL amongst other will the whole dynamic shift at them?
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Something to be remember when contemplating the standing up of the new Australian armoured force, just like the Americans and far more than the British, this force has a hidden advantage. One that the Japanese can at this time only dream about, the Italians wish they had, and the Germans give an arm and leg to possess. And in some ways make them superior to even their American second cousins. In addition to the majority having some basic mechanical skills, a very large number thanks to the relative poverty during the post Wall St crash years, will be excellent bodges. Able with some number 9 bailing wire, a hammer, screwdriver and pair of pliers, oh and a big dollop of grease, fix anything that goes wrong mechanically, with their new kit. And despite the depression, having been feed a protein rich diet and mostly lead an active outdoor life, tend to be bigger and stronger than their British cousins.

RR.
 
Tanks with radial engines aren't a great idea. A design where you need to be either at a repair depot, or be a contortionist just to check/change the spark-plugs is a poor design.
 
Top