Ramontxo
Donor
Not that good using AP but having the 37 mm Browning firing clip feeded HE shells? Once lend lease is on and using them in the armoured cars...
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Probably because Britain is still in the deter war phase rather than the fight war stage in the Far East. Nelson is still a vary powerful ship and beyond the Yamato's Japan won't have anything that can go one on one with her.
In addition the alternatives aren't much better. The QE's will need work and are probably not much faster after heavy use in the Mediterranean. The R's are even worse pushing 18 knots. The KGV's are needed to guard against a heavy German surface ship sortie.
Nelson is going to be used somewhere, the question is where and the Far east is the least bad option right now.
I guess the formation will probably deploy in multiple parts. Nelson and Barham will deploy as a slow battlesquadron while POW and Repulse will deploy as a slow battle squadron.
Shouldn't that be "while POW and Repulse will deploy as a fast battle squadron"?
There's no available evidence for an Australian based fuzed shell. What was used was a nose fuzed shell taken from the naval 40mm Pom Pom put into the 2pdr ATG gun case, more or less one of the solutions the British also arrived at. Every time there is mention of a 2pdr HE in use by Australia, where specific details are noted, it is always either that one or very rarely the original APHE.
It looks like this, identified as No. 5 in the center, and while it says it is for the carrier it will work out of any 2pdr sans Littlejohn:
A comment on the Force Z composition: I think our guide should be OTL plans and how the Mediterranean Theater is changed.
As mentioned by the author, HMS Illustrious and HMS Formitable are not badly damaged. Moreover, Britain had retained Cyrenaica so there is no reason at all for Club Runs. That means that HMS Ark Royal and HMS Nelson are not damaged as well. Having retained Cyrenaica and Crete, the British can send supplies to Malta from Alexandria since they can provide air cover for the convoys for the vast majority of the way. That fundamentally changes to role of Force H. It won't be needed as a strike force, capable of forcing its way close to the italian bases of Sardinia and Sicily. Its new role is that of protecting convoys in the Atlantic.
For this new role, Force H doesn't need fast battleships or the most capable carriers. HMS Eagle or HMS Furious and R-class battleships (or perhaps HMS Barham) will suffice. Last but not least, Somerville is too senior and experienced to lead a formation that is now (since spring 1941) of reduced importance. Likewise, after the sinking of the Bismarck, HMS Rodney won't be needed in Force H. That means that her crew will be ready and available in Q4 1941, while the ship would have had time in the yard.
When it comes to carriers, the Ark Royal was designed with a mind of operating at the Indo-Pacific, that I would guess that she will be a choice carrier.
At the minimum, I expect a Force Z consisting of: 2 Nelson-class BB, 1 CV, 1 BC and a few additional cruisers and destroyers (no huge losses at Crete).
Considering the more favourable conditions in the Mediterranean, it is quite possible that HMS Prince of Wales and an armoured carrier are added as well.
Since this Force Z will have more and more powerful ships than Force H, it seems to me that Somerville is the natural commander for it.
As mentioned by the author, HMS Illustrious and HMS Formitable are not badly damaged. Moreover, Britain had retained Cyrenaica so there is no reason at all for Club Runs. That means that HMS Ark Royal and HMS Nelson are not damaged as well. Having retained Cyrenaica and Crete, the British can send supplies to Malta from Alexandria since they can provide air cover for the convoys for the vast majority of the way. That fundamentally changes to role of Force H. It won't be needed as a strike force, capable of forcing its way close to the italian bases of Sardinia and Sicily. Its new role is that of protecting convoys in the Atlantic.
For this new role, Force H doesn't need fast battleships or the most capable carriers. HMS Eagle or HMS Furious and R-class battleships (or perhaps HMS Barham) will suffice. Last but not least, Somerville is too senior and experienced to lead a formation that is now (since spring 1941) of reduced importance. Likewise, after the sinking of the Bismarck, HMS Rodney won't be needed in Force H. That means that her crew will be ready and available in Q4 1941, while the ship would have had time in the yard.
When it comes to carriers, the Ark Royal was designed with a mind of operating at the Indo-Pacific, that I would guess that she will be a choice carrier.
At the minimum, I expect a Force Z consisting of: 2 Nelson-class BB, 1 CV, 1 BC and a few additional cruisers and destroyers (no huge losses at Crete).
Considering the more favourable conditions in the Mediterranean, it is quite possible that HMS Prince of Wales and an armoured carrier are added as well.
Since this Force Z will have more and more powerful ships than Force H, it seems to me that Somerville is the natural commander for it.
29 November 1941. Aldershot, England.
allanpcameron
Donor
29 November 1941. Aldershot, England.
A week had passed since the men of the 5th Canadian (Armoured) Division had disembarked from convoy CT15 at Gourock. The men had been brought by train to the Aldershot area and had been undergoing the usual work for new arrivals: improving their camps, fitness training and orientation.
The men were getting settled and were waiting to be reunited with their tanks, which were due to arrive at the beginning of December in a separate convoy, along with the Division’s other vehicles. The next few weeks would be a busy time for the men of the Division as they sorted themselves and their equipment out.
Major-General Ernest Sansom, GOC 5th Canadian (Armoured) Division was participating in a meeting with Lieutenant-General Andrew McNaughton, GOC Canadian Corps. Along with Major-General George Pearkes (GOC 1st Canadian Infantry Division), Major-General John Roberts (acting GOC 2nd Canadian Infantry Division) and Major-General Charles Price (GOC 3rd Canadian Infantry Division), and senior staff officers, there were many items that needed to be discussed and problems resolved.
Like 5th Armoured Division, 3rd Infantry Division had not long arrived in Britain. 1st and 2nd Divisions were now well established and had had plenty of time for training. Roberts had just replaced Major-General Odlum who would be going to Australia, and 2nd Division needed a bit of work to bring it up to scratch, Odlum seemed to have focused on unimportant things. In addition to the three Infantry and one Armoured Division, the Canadian Corps also had a Tank Brigade and all of the normal artillery, engineers, transport, and other services necessary.
McNaughton had called the meeting as he was expecting a visit from C-in-C Home Forces, General Alan Brooke shortly. Having a full Canadian Corps on hand was a strong part of Britain’s defences. While 2nd, 3rd Infantry and 5th Armoured would need more time to come to full readiness, McNaughton was conscious that the British Army was now beginning to think more in terms of going on the offensive, rather than the defensive posture since Dunkirk.
The first matters on the agenda were to do with the practicalities of having such a large Canadian contingent in the British Isles and what problems needed to resolved. The second was to discuss the likelihood of the creation of a Canadian Army with two Corps. This would mean that more artillery and other units would need to be sourced to provide two Corps level support. Thirdly the generals had to sketch out a training schedule so that by early spring of 1942 a whole Corps Exercise could be run, keeping in mind that the arrival of 4th Canadian Division, currently Infantry, but being considered to be redesignated as Armoured, next summer. Two Armoured Divisions and three Infantry Divisions would make for an impressive Canadian Army.
Unlike 1st and 2nd Canadian Infantry Divisions, which had arrived in Britain undertrained and underequipped, 3rd and 5th Divisions had arrived with their full equipment totals and had the chance to train well before embarking. Sansom and Price were confident that they would be ready for Divisional size exercises by January and Corps level training by March 1942. Exercises Waterloo and Bumper, which the Canadian Corps (1st and 2nd Canadian Infantry Divisions) had taken part in had focused on throwing back an invader. The criticism of 2nd Canadian Infantry Division in the second exercise had in great part led to the decision to replace Odlum. The need for all four Canadian Divisions to have worked together fully was agreed to be a priority.
The last thing on the agenda was where and when the Canadians would cut their teeth. The fighting in Libya was reaching its conclusion, so the Middle East was less of a possibility than previously. War warnings in the Far East were increasing, and the arrival of Canadian troops in Hong Kong mean that Prime Minister King was aware of that threat. The invasion of France to liberate it was something that was beginning to be talked about, but doing so anytime before 1943 at the earliest was as much as anyone could foretell. Until all four Divisions were fully prepared it was somewhat speculative, but McNaughton was confident that his meeting with General Brooke would be positive.
A week had passed since the men of the 5th Canadian (Armoured) Division had disembarked from convoy CT15 at Gourock. The men had been brought by train to the Aldershot area and had been undergoing the usual work for new arrivals: improving their camps, fitness training and orientation.
The men were getting settled and were waiting to be reunited with their tanks, which were due to arrive at the beginning of December in a separate convoy, along with the Division’s other vehicles. The next few weeks would be a busy time for the men of the Division as they sorted themselves and their equipment out.
Major-General Ernest Sansom, GOC 5th Canadian (Armoured) Division was participating in a meeting with Lieutenant-General Andrew McNaughton, GOC Canadian Corps. Along with Major-General George Pearkes (GOC 1st Canadian Infantry Division), Major-General John Roberts (acting GOC 2nd Canadian Infantry Division) and Major-General Charles Price (GOC 3rd Canadian Infantry Division), and senior staff officers, there were many items that needed to be discussed and problems resolved.
Like 5th Armoured Division, 3rd Infantry Division had not long arrived in Britain. 1st and 2nd Divisions were now well established and had had plenty of time for training. Roberts had just replaced Major-General Odlum who would be going to Australia, and 2nd Division needed a bit of work to bring it up to scratch, Odlum seemed to have focused on unimportant things. In addition to the three Infantry and one Armoured Division, the Canadian Corps also had a Tank Brigade and all of the normal artillery, engineers, transport, and other services necessary.
McNaughton had called the meeting as he was expecting a visit from C-in-C Home Forces, General Alan Brooke shortly. Having a full Canadian Corps on hand was a strong part of Britain’s defences. While 2nd, 3rd Infantry and 5th Armoured would need more time to come to full readiness, McNaughton was conscious that the British Army was now beginning to think more in terms of going on the offensive, rather than the defensive posture since Dunkirk.
The first matters on the agenda were to do with the practicalities of having such a large Canadian contingent in the British Isles and what problems needed to resolved. The second was to discuss the likelihood of the creation of a Canadian Army with two Corps. This would mean that more artillery and other units would need to be sourced to provide two Corps level support. Thirdly the generals had to sketch out a training schedule so that by early spring of 1942 a whole Corps Exercise could be run, keeping in mind that the arrival of 4th Canadian Division, currently Infantry, but being considered to be redesignated as Armoured, next summer. Two Armoured Divisions and three Infantry Divisions would make for an impressive Canadian Army.
Unlike 1st and 2nd Canadian Infantry Divisions, which had arrived in Britain undertrained and underequipped, 3rd and 5th Divisions had arrived with their full equipment totals and had the chance to train well before embarking. Sansom and Price were confident that they would be ready for Divisional size exercises by January and Corps level training by March 1942. Exercises Waterloo and Bumper, which the Canadian Corps (1st and 2nd Canadian Infantry Divisions) had taken part in had focused on throwing back an invader. The criticism of 2nd Canadian Infantry Division in the second exercise had in great part led to the decision to replace Odlum. The need for all four Canadian Divisions to have worked together fully was agreed to be a priority.
The last thing on the agenda was where and when the Canadians would cut their teeth. The fighting in Libya was reaching its conclusion, so the Middle East was less of a possibility than previously. War warnings in the Far East were increasing, and the arrival of Canadian troops in Hong Kong mean that Prime Minister King was aware of that threat. The invasion of France to liberate it was something that was beginning to be talked about, but doing so anytime before 1943 at the earliest was as much as anyone could foretell. Until all four Divisions were fully prepared it was somewhat speculative, but McNaughton was confident that his meeting with General Brooke would be positive.
Also given the lack of damage it frees both man power and material that would be used to repair them as well. Since carriers use a lot of steel and other equipment when it comes to repairing the battle damage it also means hey freed up capacity means other overhauls and productions can be taken place as well which means the RN will be in a bit better health compared to OTL.
Hmm maybe they could be redeployed for a possible Invasion of Sicily? I mean it could be a good place for a Canadian Formation to cut their teeth as well as give them needed battle experience. Failing that maybe move then to Tripoli? I mean we still don't know which way French North Africa will jump could be useful having a Canadian formation as a reserve.
True, though I'm not sure how much better off they are overall. A lack of resources needed for repair does, however, mean more resources available for construction, so a few more submarines and smaller vessels might be available.
Mm, not enough sealift to do the job, plus there's untis in place that are better acclimatised. I'm getting a feeling of Dieppe here.
Thank you for that. I have been guilty of repeating the internet lore of Australian base fused 2 Pounde HE.There's no available evidence for an Australian based fuzed shell. What was used was a nose fuzed shell taken from the naval 40mm Pom Pom put into the 2pdr ATG gun case, more or less one of the solutions the British also arrived at. Every time there is mention of a 2pdr HE in use by Australia, where specific details are noted, it is always either that one or very rarely the original APHE.
It looks like this, identified as No. 5 in the center, and while it says it is for the carrier it will work out of any 2pdr sans Littlejohn:
The photograph is even more useful in demonstrating that the 3” CS gun was, in effect, a breech loading mortar and no ‘gun’ at all. Which is not surprising as it was to launch a vastly heavier shell from an interchangeable with 2Pounder mounting. Much in the way of shell but backed by little in the way of cartridge.
My information came from direct correspondence with Mike Cecil, in 2000, he commenced work at the Australian War Memorial in Canberra as an Assistant Curator in the Military Heraldry and Technology Section. Within a year, he was promoted to Curator, and shortly afterwards, to Senior Curator. In 2004, he was appointed Acting Head of Military Heraldry and Technology, with confirmation as Head of Military Heraldry and Technology several months later in Canberra. The base fused round was apparently intended expressly for use from Matilda tanks, where as the 2 Pdr, carrier tank attack was essentially a 2 Pdr AT Gun taken from the infantry gun and mounted directly on the back of a modified universal carrier, so it would than likely inherit it's rounds from the infantry AT Gun.There's no available evidence for an Australian based fuzed shell. What was used was a nose fuzed shell taken from the naval 40mm Pom Pom put into the 2pdr ATG gun case, more or less one of the solutions the British also arrived at. Every time there is mention of a 2pdr HE in use by Australia, where specific details are noted, it is always either that one or very rarely the original APHE.
It looks like this, identified as No. 5 in the center, and while it says it is for the carrier it will work out of any 2pdr sans Littlejohn:
Yep, however as I told you before I asked Mike about what you you've been saying here because it sounded interesting, but he had never heard of a base fuzed 2 pounder high explosive round and said he had never told anyone about such a thing.
There are a couple of photos of ammunition being loaded into Matildas in WWII, but as might expect from the documentation of the day, it is a mix of AP shot and the nose fuzed HE shell, not a "special tank-only base fuzed HE shell".
Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
Except until Italy goes neutral or switches sides, the Italians still have a fleet in the Mediterranean which may sortie, and which precautions need to be taken against.
Also, Stalin will be making noises for ever more convoys to Russia via the Arctic - and if Churchill (in one of his mad idea moments, which Brooke is unable to talk him out of, possibly in this case with a long term look on liberating Poland) actually decides to send a division or more to Russia that way, they will definitely require support and supply and more convoys.
Plus there are the usual German submarines and surface raiders loose in the Atlantic to worry about.
There's no available evidence for an Australian based fuzed shell. What was used was a nose fuzed shell taken from the naval 40mm Pom Pom put into the 2pdr ATG gun case, more or less one of the solutions the British also arrived at. Every time there is mention of a 2pdr HE in use by Australia, where specific details are noted, it is always either that one or very rarely the original APHE.
It looks like this, identified as No. 5 in the center, and while it says it is for the carrier it will work out of any 2pdr sans Littlejohn:
Every time I see images like this, I always wonder the "what if" if the British had simply evolved the 3-pounder into 4-pounder using the same case, but further developing the propellant and projectiles, and then using same engineering from 2-pounder gun and carriage.
marathag
Banned
The Soviet 45mm was a 310mm long case with 57.8mm base with an 760m/s AP roundEvery time I see images like this, I always wonder the "what if" if the British had simply evolved the 3-pounder into 4-pounder using the same case, but further developing the propellant and projectiles, and then using same engineering from 2-pounder gun and carriage.
Pre WWI Vickers 3 pdr was 413mm long and 68mm base with an 800m/s HE round
The 6 pdr was 441mm long and 90 mm base with an 890m/s AP round
So yeah, a big missed opportunity there
Indeed!
However, there are certain things to have in mind:
- The floating dock in Alexandria could not service Nelson or KGV-class batttleships. The Mediterranean Fleet could include only Queen Elizabeths or Rs.
- The OTL role of Force H was to either deliver aircraft to Malta or cover Malta Convoys. With Cyrenaica and Crete in allied hands, there is no reason for these missions.
Therefore, the Nelsons are ideal to deploy to Singapore, since they cannot serve with Cunningham and they are too slow to counter Tirpitz since there are now more than enough KGVs.
Another potential butterfly is to deploy Renown also with Force Z. She is not need with Force H and she has a glass jaw to be deployed against the Tirpitz.
A british army in Russia will be close to ASB. More convoys would require more shipping capacity. So far the timeline was based on armoured warfare and has influenced the Battle of the Atlantic little to none so far. So, Britain has the same shipping as in OTL. Very difficult to see a drastic change in Arctic Convoys.
Indeed. But they do not require battleships or Illustrious-class carriers. They require escorts.
Yes its a shame the Admiralty Floating Dock 8, which had a 1000 ft length and 70,000 ton capacity was not moved to Alex from Malta before hostilities with Italy started
It would have allowed for the use of KGVs in the Eastern Med and Indian ocean
Sadly it was bombed on June 20th 1940 and rendered useless - the dock should have been 'submerged' during the attack in question but it was 'being painted' and so wasn't - honestly I think some people still had not grasped that there was a war on.