A good start for Manuel securing the dynasty, and he sounds like a promising leader for sure. I suppose at this point, Maria the elder and Edward could have several children beyond their John too. Do we know what the empire is thinking for Maria the younger? Could be there's an opening in Georgia, near her sister, or out west.
Our Fractured Crown: An Eastern Roman Timeline
- Thread starter Averious
- Start date
I'd say out west, Maria could find a match in the Iberian kingdoms or somewhere in Italy perhaps?
This is around when the OTL John II of Montferrat died. If this version had kids around the same time, his heir would near in age to Maria (mid to late 1350s) while being a second cousin to Ioannes V himself. Maybe they're another generation from re-upping that relationship with new blood, but a state containing Genoa is a wealthy and useful ally. Not to mention, the Paleologo could outfit their cousins' navy with the jeans their new city invented!
Or the Visconti, to win more friends against Venice.
This implies that I’ve said that the Avignon Papacy won’t throw a fit—or that it won’t be a massive uphill battle.
I don’t think it’s a stretch, or spoiler, to point out that the Empire will end up a participant of the TTL equivalent of the Wars of Religion, much as France did OTL (and will TTL).
All things to consider; however John is the type to keep things closer to home—the Palaeologo-Montferrat are indeed about a generation off.
Manuel Kantakouzenos’ heir is likely who I’ll have marry Maria the Younger.
Also, do tell of these new ‘jeans’…
I certainly think that Byzantine control over Southern Italy or Sicily is not only the lowest priority for Constantinople, it also is the least likely out of Basil's borders for them to accomplish. However, I still believe it's plausible for the Byzantines to pull such a maneuver off if the political situation is fortunate enough.
Not a bad match!
All I know is - a few centuries out from anything recognizable - the Genoese were great innovators in textiles. Slightly more waterproof legs are undoubtedly a secret source of Palaiologos naval prowess.
And on that note, I could see it being as stable as Ottoman rule over Hungary IOTL if it comes to that.
Italy as a whole is definitely last on the priority list.
Wasn't Ottoman rule over Hungary effectively through the use of a Wallachian-style vassal state? Which the Romans totally haven't already copied with Serbia and TTL Wallachia.
You too can gain the power of Rome; buy Genoese today!
Book 2; 1371 - Aftermath of the Eagle
The Imperial Crypts were a slowly growing labyrinth space; constant work had been underway since ground had first been broken decades ago, but now that was slowing down, as the required breadth of the Crypts had reached a point where further expansion would simply be excessive.
Michael VIII Palaiologos, Michael IX, and Andronikos II all shared the same chamber, alongside their wives; respect had been given as they were Palaiologi, but they were not to be seen as important as Andronikos III, who lay beside his beloved Anna of Savoy at the very central starting chamber of the Crypts--pride of place, the first 'real' head of the dynasty.
John paused there, as he traced his hand first over the effigy of his father, and then of his mother, before sighing deeply, as he passed on to the chamber that came next--the one allotted for him, and Helena when the time came for them to join the Almighty.
There he stood, and traced his gaze around; the chamber had been altered--because his son, and heir, had died before him, and thus would join him, and his wife, here.
His Andronikos, his Eagle, was gone--and had had his final rites and burial a day ago.
His gisant, the tomb effigy, lay in 'state', clasping to his breast the same sword he had died wielding; his garb reflecting that fusion of Latin, and Roman, armour and manner that Andronikos had been so fond of.
John couldn't help but trace the edge of the gisant's face--and sigh once more, as he slowly slid to the floor against the tomb itself; clasping his hands together over his knees, as his Imperial robes graced the floor with him.
"I pushed you away..." he mused, offering a soft, sad, chuckle, "Were it I'd known then where that would lead, hm?"
And so, John kept talking; talking to his son.
1371
When Andronikos' body had been borne back into Constantinople via the Boukoleon Harbour, and thus directly into the Imperial Palace, come January, the Empress Helena had been beside herself with grief; railing against her husband, and departing for her chambers to be alone.
She had now lost a second child; one to Trebizond through marriage, and one to God through battle.
Manuel had been quiet--a firm, and simple presence, as he stood alongside his father, the Emperor.
John was distant as if he expected at any moment for Andronikos to simply start moving again, yet his eldest never did, and so John slowly came to himself--and stepped back.
It is said that, struck by sudden grief, the Emperor had gone for a candlestick and beaten a table to bits right then and there, as Manuel watched on--still firm, still quiet. Only once he'd exhausted himself had John calmed, and tossed aside the ruined piece of metal in his grasp; clutching at his shoulder--the same one Simeon had broken with his mace all those years ago.
Andronikos would be given all the honour possible, as both an Imperial Prince, the Prince of Hellas, and a Knight of the Order of the Golden Fleece--a funeral, and service, worthy of an Imperial Hero who'd led the reconquest of the mainland, as well as Crete, and much of the Aegean.
In the aftermath of his funeral, it is said that John and Helena's relationship bloomed anew, and she grew stronger for it.
Peace, officially, wasn't on the table yet--and in this time, in early February, even as the Hospitallers rebuilt their strength, the Sicilians and Venetians managed to enact several raids along the Adriatic and Ioanic coastlands of the Empire; content to do as such rather than risk open battle once more.
Even the Turks once more arose as an issue in the East, come March; Nikephoros Artemiou barely able to keep them from enacting too much damage, as Murad's realms now encompassed enough of Anatolia to also directly threaten Trebizond.
The Emperor had begun to pressure Basil of Lesbos to muster the Imperial Fleet and bring forth more ships from the shipyards of the Empire, to make up for the fact that the fleet of Montferrat had been forced to fully withdraw that February to the coastlands of Northern Italy in an effort to defend their lands from the Sicilians; the Venetians still firmly focused on the Empire.
Finally however, after Basil scored a victory over a Venetian fleet near Corfu, would the Sicilians come to the table and request a peace; sending a delegation to Constantinople, alongside one from the Knights of Rhodes, on the 28th of April 1371.
The wait they had to endure, as was custom, was definitely felt with unease; in truth, John was more focused on the birth of his granddaughter Sophia, and how she would be raised alongside her three cousins from Manuel, of which the youngest son, Andronikos in honour of the Eagle, had also been born that year.
In preparation for things to come, on the day before the Latins were due to be in the presence of the Emperor, on the 4th of May 1371, Manuel would be created as Prince of Hellas, and then directly present the following day when the Emperor received the delegates from Sicily and Rhodes.
Both groups would be struck by the mixture of differences, and similarities, the Roman court now boasted; the culture of the court still foreign, and yet not quite as much as it once had been. Now Knighthood, and the accompanying chivalry, were ensconced within--as was an aura of 'Latin honour'; honour which by all rights would have demanded anger on the part of the Romans.
But the Emperor offered 'mercy' in the terms that would be haggled.
Sicily would leave the Aegean for good, and renounce all claims they once held on now-Roman lands. John would also make it clear that included in this peace were his kinsmen in Montferrat, which the delegate from Sicily would only agree to after being bribed in secret as the negotiations went on.
Rhodes, under the Hospitallers, would remain, as would their other minor Aegean possessions; however, they were to pay tribute to the Romans, and cease their raids against their fellow Christians in favour of focusing on pirating the trade of the 'Saracen'.
The fact that Andronikos had been a Knightly figure of growing fame and that he'd died honourably, had won much capital with the Hospitallers... as did the fact that the Romans were themselves as a whole an appreciable threat now.
Terms would be agreed between the two parties after two weeks of discussion, on the 12th of May; departing from Constantinople on the 19th for their respective realms.
Venice had not ceased its attacks [1], mustering strength once more to threaten the Romans, as after losing territory to the Magyars recently, and now their most important possessions in the Aegean, they weren't keen to give in.
They would finally strike a blow against the Romans in June, after funding the expedition that resulted in the sudden taking of Durres right from under the nose of the Romans, just after they'd reclaimed it.
To say the Emperor was angry was an understatement, and yet he realised nothing could be done, as the city--aided by Venetian supplies, which the Romans could not cut due to lacking Adriatic power, held out against two separate attempts to take it by August.
John would settle for organising the lands of Albania into a new Governorate under the Albanian aristocrat Karl Thopia, who had himself been ousted from Durres as a result of all this. Thus, by writ, John had created the Governorate of Kruje in August, wherein Thopia would rule from the fortress of the same name; tasked with upholding Roman rule in the region.
The fact that John had chosen an Albanian, regardless of the fact that Karl himself had originally ruled Durres for Rome prior anyway, was designed to soothe the growing resentment of the Albanians over foreign rule, which had been sparked by the constant strife within the Naple-Hungary-Croatia Anjou dynasty.
It was becoming clear then, that for all the victory and conquest--even at the cost of an Imperial Prince's life--that the Romans were running out of steam; they'd expanded to the limits of what they could currently achieve, and perhaps a bit over; it's borderlands held together by the sheer will of their assigned rulers, and the general shrewd policy of John.
Serbia would itself start to pay dividends, both Kantakouzenoi Serbia and Roman Serbia; as with the Principality of Serbia under friendly vassalage the threats posed by it and its people were nullified--and in turn with Roman Serbia, the various mines of the region provided ample precious and non-precious metals.
John would depart from Constantinople in late August to tour the European lands of the Empire--but before departing he would look to his son, and heir, Manuel with a great duty.
Manuel had already met his dynastic obligations; producing three sons with his wife Anna of Bulgaria--and in this, John had decided that he could swallow his worry, and allow Manuel what he had wanted for years; to travel.
England needed aid, or in particular Aquitaine; in their letters, both from Edward of Woodstock, and his sister Maria, John had learned that despite the able governing of the Black Prince that the region itself was costly and poor; they needed monetary aid to put into effect the changes needed for the liquidity of Plantagenet Aquitaine.
Now, while the Empire was stretched thin in men, and material? Not so much in coin; in that regard it was in abundance, especially with the new lands taken from Kingdom-era Serbia.
Thus? As John departed from Constantinople for his tour, Manuel did the same; routing for Athens, and then from there out into the Mediterranean, cash in tow, intending to reach Bordeaux.
Empress Helena would take over as Regent in their absence; relying on both her daughters-in-law, including the now-widowed, but unbowed, Margaret of England, to aid in the rearing of the Palaiologi children.
---
[1] Venice would refuse to enter into a truce with the Romans for over a decade after this; intent on reclaiming their lands and power, even as they began to now put more resources into continental Italian power.
Michael VIII Palaiologos, Michael IX, and Andronikos II all shared the same chamber, alongside their wives; respect had been given as they were Palaiologi, but they were not to be seen as important as Andronikos III, who lay beside his beloved Anna of Savoy at the very central starting chamber of the Crypts--pride of place, the first 'real' head of the dynasty.
John paused there, as he traced his hand first over the effigy of his father, and then of his mother, before sighing deeply, as he passed on to the chamber that came next--the one allotted for him, and Helena when the time came for them to join the Almighty.
There he stood, and traced his gaze around; the chamber had been altered--because his son, and heir, had died before him, and thus would join him, and his wife, here.
His Andronikos, his Eagle, was gone--and had had his final rites and burial a day ago.
His gisant, the tomb effigy, lay in 'state', clasping to his breast the same sword he had died wielding; his garb reflecting that fusion of Latin, and Roman, armour and manner that Andronikos had been so fond of.
John couldn't help but trace the edge of the gisant's face--and sigh once more, as he slowly slid to the floor against the tomb itself; clasping his hands together over his knees, as his Imperial robes graced the floor with him.
"I pushed you away..." he mused, offering a soft, sad, chuckle, "Were it I'd known then where that would lead, hm?"
And so, John kept talking; talking to his son.
1371
When Andronikos' body had been borne back into Constantinople via the Boukoleon Harbour, and thus directly into the Imperial Palace, come January, the Empress Helena had been beside herself with grief; railing against her husband, and departing for her chambers to be alone.
She had now lost a second child; one to Trebizond through marriage, and one to God through battle.
Manuel had been quiet--a firm, and simple presence, as he stood alongside his father, the Emperor.
John was distant as if he expected at any moment for Andronikos to simply start moving again, yet his eldest never did, and so John slowly came to himself--and stepped back.
It is said that, struck by sudden grief, the Emperor had gone for a candlestick and beaten a table to bits right then and there, as Manuel watched on--still firm, still quiet. Only once he'd exhausted himself had John calmed, and tossed aside the ruined piece of metal in his grasp; clutching at his shoulder--the same one Simeon had broken with his mace all those years ago.
Andronikos would be given all the honour possible, as both an Imperial Prince, the Prince of Hellas, and a Knight of the Order of the Golden Fleece--a funeral, and service, worthy of an Imperial Hero who'd led the reconquest of the mainland, as well as Crete, and much of the Aegean.
In the aftermath of his funeral, it is said that John and Helena's relationship bloomed anew, and she grew stronger for it.
Peace, officially, wasn't on the table yet--and in this time, in early February, even as the Hospitallers rebuilt their strength, the Sicilians and Venetians managed to enact several raids along the Adriatic and Ioanic coastlands of the Empire; content to do as such rather than risk open battle once more.
Even the Turks once more arose as an issue in the East, come March; Nikephoros Artemiou barely able to keep them from enacting too much damage, as Murad's realms now encompassed enough of Anatolia to also directly threaten Trebizond.
The Emperor had begun to pressure Basil of Lesbos to muster the Imperial Fleet and bring forth more ships from the shipyards of the Empire, to make up for the fact that the fleet of Montferrat had been forced to fully withdraw that February to the coastlands of Northern Italy in an effort to defend their lands from the Sicilians; the Venetians still firmly focused on the Empire.
Finally however, after Basil scored a victory over a Venetian fleet near Corfu, would the Sicilians come to the table and request a peace; sending a delegation to Constantinople, alongside one from the Knights of Rhodes, on the 28th of April 1371.
The wait they had to endure, as was custom, was definitely felt with unease; in truth, John was more focused on the birth of his granddaughter Sophia, and how she would be raised alongside her three cousins from Manuel, of which the youngest son, Andronikos in honour of the Eagle, had also been born that year.
In preparation for things to come, on the day before the Latins were due to be in the presence of the Emperor, on the 4th of May 1371, Manuel would be created as Prince of Hellas, and then directly present the following day when the Emperor received the delegates from Sicily and Rhodes.
Both groups would be struck by the mixture of differences, and similarities, the Roman court now boasted; the culture of the court still foreign, and yet not quite as much as it once had been. Now Knighthood, and the accompanying chivalry, were ensconced within--as was an aura of 'Latin honour'; honour which by all rights would have demanded anger on the part of the Romans.
But the Emperor offered 'mercy' in the terms that would be haggled.
Sicily would leave the Aegean for good, and renounce all claims they once held on now-Roman lands. John would also make it clear that included in this peace were his kinsmen in Montferrat, which the delegate from Sicily would only agree to after being bribed in secret as the negotiations went on.
Rhodes, under the Hospitallers, would remain, as would their other minor Aegean possessions; however, they were to pay tribute to the Romans, and cease their raids against their fellow Christians in favour of focusing on pirating the trade of the 'Saracen'.
The fact that Andronikos had been a Knightly figure of growing fame and that he'd died honourably, had won much capital with the Hospitallers... as did the fact that the Romans were themselves as a whole an appreciable threat now.
Terms would be agreed between the two parties after two weeks of discussion, on the 12th of May; departing from Constantinople on the 19th for their respective realms.
Venice had not ceased its attacks [1], mustering strength once more to threaten the Romans, as after losing territory to the Magyars recently, and now their most important possessions in the Aegean, they weren't keen to give in.
They would finally strike a blow against the Romans in June, after funding the expedition that resulted in the sudden taking of Durres right from under the nose of the Romans, just after they'd reclaimed it.
To say the Emperor was angry was an understatement, and yet he realised nothing could be done, as the city--aided by Venetian supplies, which the Romans could not cut due to lacking Adriatic power, held out against two separate attempts to take it by August.
John would settle for organising the lands of Albania into a new Governorate under the Albanian aristocrat Karl Thopia, who had himself been ousted from Durres as a result of all this. Thus, by writ, John had created the Governorate of Kruje in August, wherein Thopia would rule from the fortress of the same name; tasked with upholding Roman rule in the region.
The fact that John had chosen an Albanian, regardless of the fact that Karl himself had originally ruled Durres for Rome prior anyway, was designed to soothe the growing resentment of the Albanians over foreign rule, which had been sparked by the constant strife within the Naple-Hungary-Croatia Anjou dynasty.
It was becoming clear then, that for all the victory and conquest--even at the cost of an Imperial Prince's life--that the Romans were running out of steam; they'd expanded to the limits of what they could currently achieve, and perhaps a bit over; it's borderlands held together by the sheer will of their assigned rulers, and the general shrewd policy of John.
Serbia would itself start to pay dividends, both Kantakouzenoi Serbia and Roman Serbia; as with the Principality of Serbia under friendly vassalage the threats posed by it and its people were nullified--and in turn with Roman Serbia, the various mines of the region provided ample precious and non-precious metals.
John would depart from Constantinople in late August to tour the European lands of the Empire--but before departing he would look to his son, and heir, Manuel with a great duty.
Manuel had already met his dynastic obligations; producing three sons with his wife Anna of Bulgaria--and in this, John had decided that he could swallow his worry, and allow Manuel what he had wanted for years; to travel.
England needed aid, or in particular Aquitaine; in their letters, both from Edward of Woodstock, and his sister Maria, John had learned that despite the able governing of the Black Prince that the region itself was costly and poor; they needed monetary aid to put into effect the changes needed for the liquidity of Plantagenet Aquitaine.
Now, while the Empire was stretched thin in men, and material? Not so much in coin; in that regard it was in abundance, especially with the new lands taken from Kingdom-era Serbia.
Thus? As John departed from Constantinople for his tour, Manuel did the same; routing for Athens, and then from there out into the Mediterranean, cash in tow, intending to reach Bordeaux.
Empress Helena would take over as Regent in their absence; relying on both her daughters-in-law, including the now-widowed, but unbowed, Margaret of England, to aid in the rearing of the Palaiologi children.
---
[1] Venice would refuse to enter into a truce with the Romans for over a decade after this; intent on reclaiming their lands and power, even as they began to now put more resources into continental Italian power.
Especially as every expense the Venetians make only gives them more rope to hang themselves.
Great chapter, the Venetians will pay for taking Roman land way while under a peace meeting 😤😤😤. May Durres be the most ungovernable piece of land for Venice to rule over. Great that John is going on a European tour and Manuel is reaching Aquitaine, it'll be interesting seeing rulers react to an actual Roman in their presence.
I expect the English to treat Prince Manuel with great respect, would love to see Edward III's reaction, while the French might try something. Hopefully nothing with the tour goes wrong and Manuel, along with all the aid money, isn't captured and made a hostage. If captured, the Black Prince needs to be the one to successfully rescue him.
Keep up the great work 👍 👍 👍
I expect the English to treat Prince Manuel with great respect, would love to see Edward III's reaction, while the French might try something. Hopefully nothing with the tour goes wrong and Manuel, along with all the aid money, isn't captured and made a hostage. If captured, the Black Prince needs to be the one to successfully rescue him.
Keep up the great work 👍 👍 👍
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Glad you enjoyed it! Just a couple of things;
Venice never entered peace-talks with the Romans, they took Durres while the Romans were busy dealing with the Sicilians and Knights of Rhodes.
Also it isn’t John going on a European tour per say, he’s touring the European lands of the Empire, Manuel is the one being sent to Aquitaine with the aid money, similar to OTL when he went around Europe at first as the ‘crown-prince’ in the late 1365 and 1370 OTL.
It'll be good to see Manuel put his diplomatic skills to good use. Any upcoming military adventures out east into Turkish controlled Anatolia will surely see friends of the Empire get involved, most likely due to Manuel's actions.
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Apart from Cyprus, Rhodes and whatever else the Knights have, are all Greek lands held by Latins recovered now? Seems like it, which is good even if it took a very long time to recover.
We’ll just have to see won’t we 😏
166 years to kick them out of the mainland—5 generations or so.
Cyprus has been lost even longer—180 years and counting.
Could have taken way longer, but I was pleasantly surprised to see OTL events line up in a way that the TTL version of the Empire was able to take advantage. Lots more events like that coming up that will both be a boon, and a burden, to the Empire.
All this is making me more excited to see how Timur's rampage will affect Rhomania, for both good and ill, especially as Timur giving the Empire a good beating could provide a chance for reforms and the like that would never have flown in more normal times to be able to occur that would be to the benefit of the Empire in the long-term.
I think Timur will give the Romans a good fight, but will absolutely demolish the various Turkish warlords that might've allied with them or fought against them. Anatolia will be made a wasteland that the Romans need to stabilize.