I don't think that the bulgerian monarchy will survive..after all the very same king has brought bulgaria on three disastrous wars in which Bulgarian blood was spilled in great amount only for them to lose...not to mention that the kings aren't exactly Bulgarian
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Serpent
Banned
About that, not exactly, you see, Greek refugees from Anatolia where in many ways similar to the west turkish people, they were wealthier than their Greek counterparts in the mainland, more liberal/cosmopolitan oriented etc, and they didn't really drop those views despite the economic hardships they went through in the aftermath of the Greek genocide and the population exchanges, on the contrary, they passed them over to their descendants, and as for their lost wealth, they struggled to rebuild it, and in many cases after a lot of hard work they managed to do just that.
Same would be the case for the western turks I'd assume, even if the lands they resettle aren't that prosperous like their old homes, they'll find their way to rebuild their lives anew. (Marshal money would also help... A LOT, compared to the Anatolian Greek refugees that didn't had any kind of similar help, because of the enormous burden on the Greek state alone to resettle them and the post war recession taking place at that date).
I can't really see any Turks remaining in Greece, except if Greece e.g. annexes regions like Bithynia and Caria post war, I can 100% see the Turks post war being expelled from Constantinople/Istanbul for engaging in atrocities against the local Greek and Armenian unarmed civilian population there, just like the Cham Albanians were expelled from Epirus post war for engaging in similar atrocities against the unarmed civilian population there.
Have to admit I didn't really consider Georgia, but yeah, admittedly they could take a decent chuck out of Pontus, the predominantly Laz populated parts, and Stalin being an ethnic Georgian himself I'm sure he wouldn't really mind that at all.
Anyhow, as for the Soviet Union, even if they wanted to, they wouldn't be able to do shit about Turkey because of MAD principles applying there, Korea was a backwater, compared with the immense strategic value that the Bosporus Straights hold, I can't really see the WAllies ever allowing that to happen, after all there will propably be several different occupation zones to be merged, out of which the west turkish state will emerge.
As for Bulgaria, the King cannot really remain in power post war, the best shot he ever had realistically to return to power, was what he almost did historically, his son coming close to returning to power as a monarch in the aftermath of the collapse of the USSR, (in the 90s?), instead of simply as a Prime Minister.
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@Lascaris; just out of curiosity: did Italy and Bulgaria annex part of Greece's territory as they did in OTL? if yes what did they annex?
The Bosporus straits would most likely be held by Greece as with most of Western Anatolia. It'd be contested but Greece would hold its annexed land.
Can you really say the Western Turks are the same as the Greeks of Anatolia?
Serpent
Banned
Surely they have big differences, but, religion aside, so they have with the eastern and central parts of turkey.
As for Bosporus, I really wish to see that happening, but I can't say I really consider it a likely possibility at this point in the TL, but sure, given that Bosporus (and Caria maybe?) is taken by Greece post war, Greece can't really ever be on workable terms with a West Turkish state and yes, then a similar relationship with western aligned Bulgaria would be preferable for Greece.
In black is roughly the fortified line. In red is the current frontline, where it differs from the fortified line.
Italy IMS had annexed directly the Ionian islands. Here it controls only Corfu, which it has annexed. Epirus has been annexed to the puppet kingdom of Albania. Bulgaria has actually annexed considerably more land, that OTL, all of Greek Macedonia including Thessaloniki, in addition to the entirety of Western Thrace, the rest of TTL Greek Thrace has been annexed by Turkey. It's been Bulgaria's price for more active participation in the war.
Those are of course "annexations".
Because those aren't final until both sides have agreed to them, even if at gunpoint.
What plans do the Axis have for the rump puppet Greece if they defeat Greece? Any figures they are tapping to lead such a puppet state in a hypothetical victory?
No military figure, the TTL Greek army is the direct descendant of the Venizelist army of 1917 with no breaks. The reaction to breakdowns of discipline tended to be... drastic. As in summary court martials and firing squads. I think the most likely candidate would be Konstantinos Logothetopoulos. By all accounts one of the finest gynaecologists of the era, but also very closely tied to Germany were he had studied and married.
Well I suppose I could posit prince Paul leading a collaborationist government, what with him being a graduate of the German naval academy, a nephew of Wilhelm II and married to his granddaughter but that would be unfair on the man.
The rest consists of Thessaly which I would expect is at the moment under direct military administration, it is the frontline after all...
He could be someone who could flirt with the idea of collaborating but backs out of it once he realizes the fact he'd be ruling a rump state with little independence and/or wait until a decisive victory which never comes before making his decision or something like that?Well I suppose I could posit prince Paul leading a collaborationist government, what with him being a graduate of the German naval academy, a nephew of Wilhelm II and married to his granddaughter but that would be unfair on the man.
Well if member of the royal family leads a collaborationist government will finally bury the idea of a royal restoration for good
Actually that reminds me, I never did get an answer about what happened to Alexander's wife and daughters? I think in otl they ended up in Italy and Alexandra ended up deposed and miserable in Yugoslavia. I remember the coup attempt ittl but they never got mentioned themselves after Aspasia had her last daughter that I saw. Now I'm curious again given the changes so far.
Part 90
Thermopylae, December 25th, 1941
The Italian army had start moving divisions from Epirus to Thessaly, back in late November. The planned movement of 7 out of the 13 Italian divisions in the Epirus front would not be complete before early January. But pressure from the Turkish government to Rome, the Turks were not particularly happy to see Smyrna being reinforced from mainland Greece, had forced the Italians to move forward their plans. The Italian Christmas offensive, or the 4th battle of Thermopylae, depending on whom you were asking begun...
Off Endau, Malaya, December 25-26th, 1941
The Prince of Wales and Hood had failed to find any of the Japanese convoys. But they had been found themselves by the Japanese 2nd Fleet with the battleships Kongo and Haruna and 4 Takao class heavy cruisers in the night of the 25th to the 26th. This too solved the problem after a fashion for admiral Phillips, his two battleships were easily superior to the Japanese ones and had radar after all, as seen from the battles against the Germans and the Italians he had every reason to be confident. After all the Japanese were not even Europeans unlike the Germans. Since he could not avoid battle he could at least take the opportunity given him by the Japanese.
Phillips should had known better, after all the Japanese had been trained by the Royal Navy. And while the Japanese did not have radar, they held in store a surprise of their own in the form of the massive Type 93 torpedo of which the four Japanese cruisers had 64 and the destroyers escorting their force nearly as many. Neither Prince of Wales nor Hood would survive the night. The Japanese would themselves lose Haruna with the cruiser Maya heavily damaged...
Gulf of Sirte, December 27th, 1941
A RAF Wellington, overflew the Italian cruisers Giovanni Delle Bande Nere and Alberico Da Barbiano as they sailed south towards Tripoli at high speed, on a resupply mission. Further east other aircraft spotted an Italian convoy of 4 merchantmen, escorted by 3 light cruisers and 9 destroyers and an even stronger Italian force of 3 battleships, 2 heavy cruisers and 10 destroyers covering it. In truth the British were well aware of the position of the Italian ships from signal intercepts but did not want to alert the Italians that their naval codes had been recently broken. Not an hour later a Regia Aeronautica Z.1007 spotted HMS Malaya escorted by 3 British and 1 Dutch destroyers sailing eastwards at the top speed the old battleship could make to link up with the Allied force out of Alexandria, Salamis, HMS Illustrious, 3 light cruisers and 8 destroyers. The heavy cruiser Lemnos with the large destroyers Themistocles and Miaoulis had split off the force a few hours earlier to try to intercept the Italian cruisers, while Force K with 3 light cruisers and 4 destroyers was coming out of Malta to attack the Italian convoy. What becomes the naval battle of Malta (for Greek and Italian historians) or the battle of the gulf of Sirte (for British ones) would soon commence.
Tactically the battle can be considered a draw. Cunningham's Alexandria force, manages to join up with the Gibraltar one before being engaged by the Italian covering force. In a hard fought engagement with Salamis and Malaya dueling Littorio, Duilio and Giulio Cesare, both allied battleships are damaged as are Duilio and Littorio and things could has turned for the worse for the Allies had Littorio not been torpedoed. With visibility worsening and having also lost the heavy cruiser Gorizia the Italians fearing a repeat of the disaster that was the night action off Cythera the retire north and the Allies, with both their battleships damaged and the light cruiser HMS Naiad and the destroyer HMS Kipling sunk fail to pursue.
Closer to the Libyan coast, commander Vasilis Laskos wins the only clear cut Allied victory of the day when he intercepts with Lemnos, Themistocles and Miaoulis the pair of Italian light cruisers bringing supplies to Tripoli. It is an uneven fight. The two Italian ships built in 1930 in reaction to the French contre-torpilleurs are relatively small with extremely light protection, Lemnos is amongst the strongest and best protected cruisers in the world, while the two Greek destroyers are such only in name being comparable in size to the massive French Mogador class. Laskos sinks both ships with negligible damage to his own. With the ships go the 1850 tons of supplies, half of it fuel they carried.
The last action of the battle takes place as close as 20 miles off Tripoli, when the British Force K finally catches up with the Italian convoy heading there in the early evening. In the close range melee that follows the British do sink 3 out of the 4 Italian merchant ships in the convoy, only the MS Vettor Pisani makes it to Tripoli, as well as two destroyers, the newly built Saetta and the Emanuele Pessagno, with two of their cruisers HMS Penelope and HMS Aurora damaged. Then disaster strikes them, as the retreating ships enter a recently laid Italian minefield. HMS Neptune, the third cruiser in the force strikes four mines in quick succession sinking with all hands. Penelope and Aurora, strike more mines and already damaged, sink as well. And so does the destroyer HMS Kandahar. By dawn Force K has ceased to exist as an effective fighting force. But only a single supply ship has reached Tripoli...
Eleusis, December 29th, 1941
The convoy carrying the Crete Division, start leaving Eleusis under heavy escort, on the way to Smyrna. Myrina, Aliaga for the Turks, had fallen the previous day and general Sarigiannis, the commander of the Greek army in Smyrna was screaming for immediate reinforcements to stabilize the front before it was too late. Despite the pressure on Thermopylae, Pangalos had still ordered the division to Smyrna. The question was if it would get through, but the navy was mobilizing every ship it could spare including Averof and Helli to make sure the reinforcements did reach Smyrna.
Mudros, December 29th, 1941
Rauf Orbay aboard the armoured ship Fatih led the Turkish navy and an attached flotilla of Italian destroyers and torpedo boats southwards to Chios. Back in March the Greeks had beaten his navy off Lesvos. This time, the final liberation of Izmir hinged upon his fleet. And the Greek navy had taken massive casualties for its size in the past several months. No better opportunity was ever going to arise...
The Italian army had start moving divisions from Epirus to Thessaly, back in late November. The planned movement of 7 out of the 13 Italian divisions in the Epirus front would not be complete before early January. But pressure from the Turkish government to Rome, the Turks were not particularly happy to see Smyrna being reinforced from mainland Greece, had forced the Italians to move forward their plans. The Italian Christmas offensive, or the 4th battle of Thermopylae, depending on whom you were asking begun...
Off Endau, Malaya, December 25-26th, 1941
The Prince of Wales and Hood had failed to find any of the Japanese convoys. But they had been found themselves by the Japanese 2nd Fleet with the battleships Kongo and Haruna and 4 Takao class heavy cruisers in the night of the 25th to the 26th. This too solved the problem after a fashion for admiral Phillips, his two battleships were easily superior to the Japanese ones and had radar after all, as seen from the battles against the Germans and the Italians he had every reason to be confident. After all the Japanese were not even Europeans unlike the Germans. Since he could not avoid battle he could at least take the opportunity given him by the Japanese.
Phillips should had known better, after all the Japanese had been trained by the Royal Navy. And while the Japanese did not have radar, they held in store a surprise of their own in the form of the massive Type 93 torpedo of which the four Japanese cruisers had 64 and the destroyers escorting their force nearly as many. Neither Prince of Wales nor Hood would survive the night. The Japanese would themselves lose Haruna with the cruiser Maya heavily damaged...
Gulf of Sirte, December 27th, 1941
A RAF Wellington, overflew the Italian cruisers Giovanni Delle Bande Nere and Alberico Da Barbiano as they sailed south towards Tripoli at high speed, on a resupply mission. Further east other aircraft spotted an Italian convoy of 4 merchantmen, escorted by 3 light cruisers and 9 destroyers and an even stronger Italian force of 3 battleships, 2 heavy cruisers and 10 destroyers covering it. In truth the British were well aware of the position of the Italian ships from signal intercepts but did not want to alert the Italians that their naval codes had been recently broken. Not an hour later a Regia Aeronautica Z.1007 spotted HMS Malaya escorted by 3 British and 1 Dutch destroyers sailing eastwards at the top speed the old battleship could make to link up with the Allied force out of Alexandria, Salamis, HMS Illustrious, 3 light cruisers and 8 destroyers. The heavy cruiser Lemnos with the large destroyers Themistocles and Miaoulis had split off the force a few hours earlier to try to intercept the Italian cruisers, while Force K with 3 light cruisers and 4 destroyers was coming out of Malta to attack the Italian convoy. What becomes the naval battle of Malta (for Greek and Italian historians) or the battle of the gulf of Sirte (for British ones) would soon commence.
Tactically the battle can be considered a draw. Cunningham's Alexandria force, manages to join up with the Gibraltar one before being engaged by the Italian covering force. In a hard fought engagement with Salamis and Malaya dueling Littorio, Duilio and Giulio Cesare, both allied battleships are damaged as are Duilio and Littorio and things could has turned for the worse for the Allies had Littorio not been torpedoed. With visibility worsening and having also lost the heavy cruiser Gorizia the Italians fearing a repeat of the disaster that was the night action off Cythera the retire north and the Allies, with both their battleships damaged and the light cruiser HMS Naiad and the destroyer HMS Kipling sunk fail to pursue.
Closer to the Libyan coast, commander Vasilis Laskos wins the only clear cut Allied victory of the day when he intercepts with Lemnos, Themistocles and Miaoulis the pair of Italian light cruisers bringing supplies to Tripoli. It is an uneven fight. The two Italian ships built in 1930 in reaction to the French contre-torpilleurs are relatively small with extremely light protection, Lemnos is amongst the strongest and best protected cruisers in the world, while the two Greek destroyers are such only in name being comparable in size to the massive French Mogador class. Laskos sinks both ships with negligible damage to his own. With the ships go the 1850 tons of supplies, half of it fuel they carried.
The last action of the battle takes place as close as 20 miles off Tripoli, when the British Force K finally catches up with the Italian convoy heading there in the early evening. In the close range melee that follows the British do sink 3 out of the 4 Italian merchant ships in the convoy, only the MS Vettor Pisani makes it to Tripoli, as well as two destroyers, the newly built Saetta and the Emanuele Pessagno, with two of their cruisers HMS Penelope and HMS Aurora damaged. Then disaster strikes them, as the retreating ships enter a recently laid Italian minefield. HMS Neptune, the third cruiser in the force strikes four mines in quick succession sinking with all hands. Penelope and Aurora, strike more mines and already damaged, sink as well. And so does the destroyer HMS Kandahar. By dawn Force K has ceased to exist as an effective fighting force. But only a single supply ship has reached Tripoli...
Eleusis, December 29th, 1941
The convoy carrying the Crete Division, start leaving Eleusis under heavy escort, on the way to Smyrna. Myrina, Aliaga for the Turks, had fallen the previous day and general Sarigiannis, the commander of the Greek army in Smyrna was screaming for immediate reinforcements to stabilize the front before it was too late. Despite the pressure on Thermopylae, Pangalos had still ordered the division to Smyrna. The question was if it would get through, but the navy was mobilizing every ship it could spare including Averof and Helli to make sure the reinforcements did reach Smyrna.
Mudros, December 29th, 1941
Rauf Orbay aboard the armoured ship Fatih led the Turkish navy and an attached flotilla of Italian destroyers and torpedo boats southwards to Chios. Back in March the Greeks had beaten his navy off Lesvos. This time, the final liberation of Izmir hinged upon his fleet. And the Greek navy had taken massive casualties for its size in the past several months. No better opportunity was ever going to arise...
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Well it seems that the spercheios and the isonzo will haunt Italian history in the future...the situation in smyrna is dire if the turks manage to push beyond the mountains in aliaga then the turks will be able to shell smyrna her self...
OTL the British had a policy: no target could be attacked until it had been sighted by an aircraft sent to the already-known location. And two other aircraft would be sent to other locations, so even the aircrews wouldn't guess that the codes were broken.