Still, I imagine that the USSR would use the Georgian-speaking Laz Muslims to justify giving parts of the Pontus to the Georgian SSR.
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
I think them being Muslim is more important than being Laz speaking? I'm pretty sure the ones that didn't convert to Christianity would be evicted?
Also the fact that Georgia and Armenia claims the Pontus means that whomever holds the Pontus would be hated by the other country. And the treaty of Sevres did give Armenia the coast?
The USSR put rather heavy emphasis on atheism, and the eradication of religion was one of the long term ideological goals (in theory), 'opium of the masses' and all that. They'd probably put far heavier emphasis on language than religion given that. Why on earth would the Soviet Union force people to convert to Christianity or face eviction? They are all united in the glorious International socialist ideal after all! I think they'd rather give the region of 'Georgian' speaking Muslims to Georgia and keep Armenia dependent rather than cling to the rather flimsy legitimacy of Sevres, and the Russians had opinions about ww1 treaties anyway (see Poland).
If they need to they can play their puppets against each other and even then, setting aside Pontus, Armenia is set to all but double in size based on what they stand to gain in the south, into some of their former heartlands. I don't think they'll be complaining too much, and if they do? Well it's the Soviets baby!
I think the Christian Georgians would disagree. Also the fact that the Muslim Laz people were more supportive of the Turks than the Georgian government?
The Armenians may get ideas after getting so much land (with Treaty of Sevres borders). I think it's much better for them to ally with each other against the other forces of the region. Georgia in the 1990s encouraging Chechnya and other Muslim peoples in the Russian Caucasus to secede would be great policy for them.
well many georgian nationalists still claim the laz as georgian even today
I agree with @Sphenodon. What I find more plausibe is for Georgia to get Lazistan and Armenia to get Trabzon as an outlet to the sea.
I like the nice touch with the Alevite State. But if the light blue is Assyria it is way too big to be viable. Also I doubt Greece will get Bursa - the first ottoman capital. I think Greece will be smaller than that.
Outside of the Assyrian Triangle proper, I can reasonably see the country expanded southward to incorporate the ruins of Assur (not much farther south than the Triangle is already) and southwest to connect with the Euphrates (more land, but all fairly sparsely populated). All that aside, this looks pretty close to a realistic depiction - one designed as a Kurdish-Iraqi buffer might directly border Syria, but again that would be land assignment based more on ideology (Beth Nahrain concept) and Entente hegemonic strategy than on ethnicity.
Last edited:
Part 80
Smolensk, July 16th, 1941
Advance elements of the Wehrmacht reached Smolensk but the city would not fall for three more weeks...
Teheran, Iran, July 19th, 1941
President Reza Pahlavi looked at the report with a mix of dread and anger. Earlier in the day the British and Soviet ambassadors had handled him a joint request, veiled ultimatum in anything but name, demanding the expulsion of of German citizens from Iran. He was himself vacillating on what he should be doing. He did not want to alienate the British or the Soviets far less both of the simultaneously but he did not want to alienate the Germans either, particularly with German and Turkish armies in Iran. Perhaps he should start gradually reducing trade and play for time...
Elsewhere in Teheran Abdolhossein Teymourtash returned from the presidential palace even more concerned than the president cum dictator. For the past 150 or so years Iran had to play a balancing act between Britain and Russia. It was never good news when one could not be played against the other. It was even worse news when both were acting in concert. The Germans and Turks stirring up trouble, and he was certain Von Papen from Sivas was stirring up trouble and the street protests that had broken against the British and Soviets were not entirely spontaneous, was just icing on the cake. Great danger was coming and with it potentially great opportunities, the allies needed Iran and this could be taken advantage of. But despite asking for his advice Reza for now was doing nothing. If Reza was not doing anything then perhaps he should be doing...
Still elsewhere in Teheran general Fazlollah Zahedi contemplated his options. His German contacts were promising help against the British and Soviets. Just as importantly they were promising him their backing to "national government" naturaly one led by himself. The prospect was enticing. After all German and Turkish armies were already in Iraq and the Germans were going from victory to victory, all news agreed that the Russians were on the run suffering horrific casualties with German armies at the gates of Smolensk. It made no sense not to side with the victors...
Erzurum, Turkey, July 22nd, 1941
Artillery kept raining down on the city but the fighting in the lines right to the east of the city had mostly died down. After three weeks of heavy fighting the Turks and Germans had finally managed to stop the Soviet attack right at the gates of Erzurum. But it had not come cheaply, Turkish and German casualties by now were running slightly in excess of 31,000 men. Soviet casualties had been less than a third as many in addition to about 150 tanks.
Athens, Greece, July 30th, 1941
Theodore Pangalos had spent the two months of relative quiet reorganizing his army. Units had been merged, others outright disbanded, but what remained was at least up to strength, properly armed, after a fashion at least, artillery battalions with 75mm guns were better than artillery battalions with no guns after all and along with the reorganization any dead wood that had inevitably accumulated after two decades of peace was by now mostly gone. The reorganized army had been slashed down to 12 infantry and two cavalry divisions, the latter two waiting to be eventually converted to armoured when the tanks would be made available, the Greeks had failed to produce tanks locally and the British were still converting their own horse cavalry units in Palestine to armoured, not many tanks were at the moment available. But a steady if limited flow of guns, trucks and other equipment was coming off the ships every day while the cluster of Greek war industries around Athens was working feverishly to produce more and provide munitions, after all every singe bullet built in Athens was one that did not have to be shipped 30,000 km around Africa. Production had been steadily increasing month by month, but tanks were a sore point with Pangalos. Back in 1939 Greece had bought a license of what had become the Centaur tank to be locally produced at the ELEO factory only for the war to stop that. The project had been quietly resurrected in May 1940, with France gone it appeared likely that the only arms Greece would be getting would be the ones it would be making on its own, and Alexandros Isigonis brought back from Britain to head the effort of producing a localized variant suitable for Greek industry. But nothing but a pair of intriguing prototypes had come off the ELEO factory at Eleusis so far...
Advance elements of the Wehrmacht reached Smolensk but the city would not fall for three more weeks...
Teheran, Iran, July 19th, 1941
President Reza Pahlavi looked at the report with a mix of dread and anger. Earlier in the day the British and Soviet ambassadors had handled him a joint request, veiled ultimatum in anything but name, demanding the expulsion of of German citizens from Iran. He was himself vacillating on what he should be doing. He did not want to alienate the British or the Soviets far less both of the simultaneously but he did not want to alienate the Germans either, particularly with German and Turkish armies in Iran. Perhaps he should start gradually reducing trade and play for time...
Elsewhere in Teheran Abdolhossein Teymourtash returned from the presidential palace even more concerned than the president cum dictator. For the past 150 or so years Iran had to play a balancing act between Britain and Russia. It was never good news when one could not be played against the other. It was even worse news when both were acting in concert. The Germans and Turks stirring up trouble, and he was certain Von Papen from Sivas was stirring up trouble and the street protests that had broken against the British and Soviets were not entirely spontaneous, was just icing on the cake. Great danger was coming and with it potentially great opportunities, the allies needed Iran and this could be taken advantage of. But despite asking for his advice Reza for now was doing nothing. If Reza was not doing anything then perhaps he should be doing...
Still elsewhere in Teheran general Fazlollah Zahedi contemplated his options. His German contacts were promising help against the British and Soviets. Just as importantly they were promising him their backing to "national government" naturaly one led by himself. The prospect was enticing. After all German and Turkish armies were already in Iraq and the Germans were going from victory to victory, all news agreed that the Russians were on the run suffering horrific casualties with German armies at the gates of Smolensk. It made no sense not to side with the victors...
Erzurum, Turkey, July 22nd, 1941
Artillery kept raining down on the city but the fighting in the lines right to the east of the city had mostly died down. After three weeks of heavy fighting the Turks and Germans had finally managed to stop the Soviet attack right at the gates of Erzurum. But it had not come cheaply, Turkish and German casualties by now were running slightly in excess of 31,000 men. Soviet casualties had been less than a third as many in addition to about 150 tanks.
Athens, Greece, July 30th, 1941
Theodore Pangalos had spent the two months of relative quiet reorganizing his army. Units had been merged, others outright disbanded, but what remained was at least up to strength, properly armed, after a fashion at least, artillery battalions with 75mm guns were better than artillery battalions with no guns after all and along with the reorganization any dead wood that had inevitably accumulated after two decades of peace was by now mostly gone. The reorganized army had been slashed down to 12 infantry and two cavalry divisions, the latter two waiting to be eventually converted to armoured when the tanks would be made available, the Greeks had failed to produce tanks locally and the British were still converting their own horse cavalry units in Palestine to armoured, not many tanks were at the moment available. But a steady if limited flow of guns, trucks and other equipment was coming off the ships every day while the cluster of Greek war industries around Athens was working feverishly to produce more and provide munitions, after all every singe bullet built in Athens was one that did not have to be shipped 30,000 km around Africa. Production had been steadily increasing month by month, but tanks were a sore point with Pangalos. Back in 1939 Greece had bought a license of what had become the Centaur tank to be locally produced at the ELEO factory only for the war to stop that. The project had been quietly resurrected in May 1940, with France gone it appeared likely that the only arms Greece would be getting would be the ones it would be making on its own, and Alexandros Isigonis brought back from Britain to head the effort of producing a localized variant suitable for Greek industry. But nothing but a pair of intriguing prototypes had come off the ELEO factory at Eleusis so far...
The Germans find Smolensk to be a tougher nut to break than IOTL...
How bad is the logistical situation for the Soviets in the Caucasus/Anatolian front?
If the Greeks manage to build even limited numbers of tanks it would be significant, but I think it would have been easier and wiser to build trucks and armored cars instead.
How bad is the logistical situation for the Soviets in the Caucasus/Anatolian front?
Shouldn't Iran be replaced with Iraq in this phrase?
If the Greeks manage to build even limited numbers of tanks it would be significant, but I think it would have been easier and wiser to build trucks and armored cars instead.
Last edited:
Yes, I think you're right. Some limited number of armored vehicles would be useful, but the Greeks aren't going to be fighting in good tank country. They've got mountains and hills. Better to focus on what can be built in larger numbers and still provide armored fire support in a pinch. Easier on their logistics as well, especially if a unit has to be shipped across the Aegean a light motorized force is a lot easier and a lot faster to redeploy than an armored one.
Considering Teymourtarsh had some interesting views and policies IOTL (and leads the NatPop Iran in the rework for KR Iran), I wonder how Iran would develop if he regains power after Reza Khan oofs himself here.
So basically the Turks and Germans are fighting against the Soviets in Anatolia which is very different than otl for obvious reasons. How will this affect Germany in diverting supplies to Anatolia?
Iran/Persia will have some differences methinks as Zahedi wants to coup Reza. Will there be an Iranian civil war or will Zahedi get arrested like otl? I got ittl Iran is able to be more powerful and be a regional power.
Finally in Greece things are in motion as the Greeks (Pangalos) continue to strengthen his forces, although the armour department is a bit lacking. Will we see a post war boom in Greece much like Japan/Italy ittl? Also Greece seems set to be a regional hegemon of the middle East after WWII and the cold war.
Iran/Persia will have some differences methinks as Zahedi wants to coup Reza. Will there be an Iranian civil war or will Zahedi get arrested like otl? I got ittl Iran is able to be more powerful and be a regional power.
Finally in Greece things are in motion as the Greeks (Pangalos) continue to strengthen his forces, although the armour department is a bit lacking. Will we see a post war boom in Greece much like Japan/Italy ittl? Also Greece seems set to be a regional hegemon of the middle East after WWII and the cold war.
Seeing that greece,usa and the uk have the same standard calibre for rifles(7mm) could realistically the greek war industry provide enough ammunition for the allied war effort in the middle east? After all any ship not used for carrying ammunition can be used to carry something else.
Also has the whole army slashed to 14 divisions or only the units in the Thermopylae front
Oh this is interesting... Very very interesting. I wonder what changes Isigonis has made on Carden's design.
If the frontline is on eastern outskirts of Erzurum, then the terrain while still suitable for defence it is not the vast mountains of the border with Sarikamis. From a quick view it is great artillery country with a lot of reverse slopes. If the Axis try to dislodge Triandafilov, soviet superiority in artillery would make that endeavor very bloody.
Nothing like a pro-Axis coup to turn the country towards the Allies. Strong spanish vibes in Teheran.
I don't think it will be very bad. They have the narrow gauge railroad the Imperial Russian Army built in 1916 that connects Erzurum with Kars. As soon as they fix it, they will have a railhead just behind the frontlines.
In general, I think Stalin is going to ask again and again the British to knock Turkey out of the war. He has found an actual Second Front. With the Straights open and in firm Allied control, Lend-Lease shipments can reach the Black Sea ports while the Soviet Armies of the Caucasus can head north.