Indeed, but with the quite crucial difference from the mentioned precedent that after the virtual destruction of the Turkish Navy as such, that would be derived both from the Allied Air Power and the US Navy experience in the planning and development of Amphibian operations...
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
A point there. I remembered the existence of an Indian Marine, but not that in 1934 it became the Royal Indian Navy.
Nothing so dramatic. TTL Löwe is Skoda T-25 (without the autoloader because German engineers may be insane, but THAT insane?). Why Nazi Germany spends resources to put to production a design that while pretty good in obviously inferior to Panther and offers no clear major advantage over Panzer IV really? Why a certain Hermann Göring controls the company and TTL is not a morphine addict. What is a little less overall efficiency when lean Hermann's feudal interests... and his profits, are at stake?
Thinking that the Air Force shouldn't have a tank production line is the sort of weak willed democratic nonsense that disapproves of mass murdering potentially productive workers and as such has no place in Nazi Germany.
This is perhaps a plausible convergence to OTL; Cassino is a natural chokepoint. But see below...
Given the continuing difficulties in Asia Minor and the Balkans, why are Greek troops in Italy and not British or American troops (which are also in the Balkans and Anatolia)? It seems to invite unnecessary logistical complications for the Greek forces and for the Allied command in Italy.
This convergence however is way too pat. After 20+ years of butterflies and knock-ons, the same commander in the same position on almost the same date making the same decision?
A good thing that the average peasant does not own a map. On the other hand the steady flow of killed and wounded...
I'd expect it to be very... straightforward. In 1941 their country, was invaded by the country responsible for their genocide a generation before...
i'm sympathetic to Bakitzis. Certainly more than Sarafis. I'm also inclined to believe he was likely more capable that either Sarafis or Psarros.
Cakmak was making the probably valid calculation that losing the fleet was not really affecting the Turkish position. So using what remained of the fleet at best offered tangible gains at worse cost little in the grand scheme of things.
Of course it's a political/strategic choice...
That depends. One notes Stalin did hear out his generals. At least occasionally.
Breaking through the straits would still require a major effort, with or without the Turkish navy. Half a flotilla of destroyers and a smallish light cruiser, do not really affect this as long as the coastal batteries and the minefields are still in place...
Of course not. Toumbas was Venizelist. TTL he has 6 years seniority on OTL. He won't be commanding a mere destroyer escort. One of the cruisers or higher is more like it.
Right... not happening.
Averof had pride of place in the battles of Helli, Lemnos, Lesvos, Chios and now Tenedos. I'll admit it wasn't planned this way, it just happened. i wonder what naval historians and enthusiasts TTL will be thinking of the Greek and Turkish naval choices TTL. For example the Greeks built their sole battleships back inn the early 1930s to deal with the Turksh pocket battleships. It never fought them unlike the heavy cruisers and Averof. I could see arguments that large cruisers would had been a good idea. The latter's modernization will likely be considered very value for money.
German engineers and an overly complicated, huge design? That they can keep tweaking to death?
Prioritization is the logical thing to do. After all what stops you from say first knocking out Finland for example and then switching the divisions to Turkey? Or the reverse>
Two reasons. First the political and propaganda ones. Eve in OTL Roosevelt, and Churchill for that matter, wanted to have Greek army units participating in the liberation of Rome. In OTL it did not happen due to the I Greek brigade mutinying (at communist instigation) in Egypt at the worst possible time for everyone... including the communists. No such silliness here, and Greek divisions receive most their material from the US so little logistical issues.
Second... one might note that TTL the Allies were able to land 12,000 more men than OTL, call it two brigades worth of troops. That's coming from the landing ships and transports of the Greek navy, as hinted in part 137. It eases communication for the troops loaded to be speaking Greek as well. As well as using troops that have some experience and training of landings as they had conducted one in Pieria.
I won't much apologize for that. After all WW2 is broadly recognizable and there is one. I could argue with a straight face that Hitler was shot in the head in 1923 but then the TL wouldn't be about the outcome of the Greco-Turkish war in 1921.
Doing Anzio to flank the German winter line is a logical move and Lucas is a logical candidate for corps commander at this time, he was Eisenhower's deputy after all. And would someone else in his position actually make a different decision? Yes Lucas has been criticized for not being aggressive enough but then he was being ordered by Clark to be cautious and feared that a rush to Rome might leave the landing force exposed to German counterattack was very much present. Would Dawley for example act much differently?Timing is a different matter. There is a clear limit after which Anzio cannot happen. Early February since afterwards the landing ships will be gone. Could it be done simultaneously with TTL 1st Cassino in mid-December 1943? I was not certain the landing ships would be around that early, after all OTL Anzio was cancelled in December 18th when 1st Cassino happens TTL and initially only landing ships for a single division were nade available. So I played it safe and had it coinciding with TTL 2nd Cassino. Now inconveniently for me the timing of that happened to be close to OTL 1st battle...
Yabbut that would have been a token force at a time when the Greek army wasn't doing much of anything else and needed the notice.
On one hand, Finland has no allied power nearby to deal with other than Soviets. So, if said Soviets wait to deal with them, Helsinki cannot really surrender in their back to the Western Allies.
On the other hand, Turkey... Greeks east, Anglo-French and Commonweath forces south.
Politically and geostrategically, it makes more sense to prioritize Turkey over Finland after the siege of Leningrad is relieved. Finnish forces are just going to be a manageable nuisance/threat to the northern fronts, while things in Turkey and the contour of the post war settlement can change very rapidly depending on the situation on the ground.
Besides, would Stalin let his Georgian roots influence his judgement here ?
Speaking of Finland, if it falls behind the Iron Curtain, would there be a Finnish SSR ITTL or would Uncle Joe stick with setting up a totally-independent "People's Democracy" (as that was what the USSR called the Eastern European puppet states)?
Tbf I don't think we'll see the Finns fall under the Iron curtain, they'd probably unddergo finlandisation as per otl unless they fail miserably which is somewhat unlikely.
So, from a quick reading through discussion on Constantinople, I surmise the Soviets will take up the Italians' place and their district in the Free City of Constantinople. That makes, correct me if I'm wrong, East Constantinople...
West Berlin... East Constantinople... Hmm...
Mr Gorbachov, tear down that strait... oh wait, wrong city...
West Berlin... East Constantinople... Hmm...
Mr Gorbachov, tear down that strait... oh wait, wrong city...
Stalin never would try annexation of Finland after disastrous Winter War. Even puppetisation is doubtful. OTL path is most plausible.
Roger Waters? Oh the musician? Hmm what is sufficiently ironic/ poetic justice for someone of his political views?
Well his father died in the real Anzio landings, same with his character in The Wall. I'm selfishly hoping that it will turn out the same lol
Part 140
Kwajalein, Marshall islands, January 31st, 1944
The US 7th Infantry Division begun it's assault on the island, while simultaneously the 4th Marine Division assaulted Roi-Namur to it's north. The Japanese garrisons of both islands would fight virtually to the last man. But this would not stop the Americans from crushing all resistance and capturing both islands in just four days of fighting. Operations in the Marshall island would continue with Nimitz invading Ebeye island on February 4th.
Narva river, February 2nd, 1944
Three Soviet armies took the offensive against the new German defensive positions. But the Germans following the lifting of the siege of Leningrad had chose well. with their position behing the Narva river and between the gulf of Finland and Lake Peipus proving too strong. The Soviets would initially manage to cross the river, but the Germans would manage to destroy the Soviet bridgeheads. For the time being the German hold on Estonia would remain secure and so would their control of the shale oil deposits just behind the front-line. But the Soviets would persists with their attacks despite the rising casualties.
Stockholm, February 8th, 1944
Soviet and Finnish diplomats quietly start peace negotiations. But the procedure would prove difficult as Finland did not want to make any major concessions ad for the time being felt relatively secure. Only the perceived threat of the Soviet Narva offensive capturing Estonia and cutting off the supply lines to Germany had brought the Finns to the negotiating table.
Anzio, February 13th, 1944
The second Allied assault at Monte Cassino had come to a halt three days before, once more failing to break the German defenses despite thousands of casualties on both sides. Kesserling had lost no time to swing his reserves against the Anzio bridgehead and attacked in turn hoping to destroy the bridgehead. But over the next few days the defenders would prove too strong for the Germans with their attack stopped cold in front of Cisterna.
Pyrenees, February 14th, 1944
The last remnants of the Falangist army crossed over into German occupied France. The final offensive of the Spanish army had crossed the Ebro and crushed what remained of the Falangist army and state. Eduardo Lopez Ochoa had looked an unlikely candidate to lead Spain through two civil wars in a decade. Nevertheless he had and had triumphed in both. But now that the war was finally over and won, he had to also win the peace. The Spanish provisional government under Ochoa had included PSOE's Indalecio Pietro and Juan Negrin. It had not included PCE, although the communists on Moscow's instructions had supported the provisional government. But now that the war was finally over and the tide of the war in Europe appeared to be turning on Allied side, would La Pasionaria remain pliant?
Korsun. Ukraine, February 16th, 1944
Six German divisions with 60,000 men had been encircled by the Soviets three weeks earlier. The Germans would make a successful breakout attempt aided by attacks by the III and XLVII Panzer corps outside the pocket. But fewer than half the men would actually manage to escape, most of their material would remain behind and the relieving force would lose nearly ten thousand men of its attempt to relieve the pressure on the pocket.
Over Germany, February 20th, 1944
The Allied air forces begun a week of massive raids hoping to cripple the German aircraft industry and hopefully the Luftwaffe's fighter arm along with it. The raids would have only limited effect against the German factories and cost nearly 400 aircraft, most of them heavy bombers. But the Luftwaffe would also suffer heavily, in particular among its He-219 squadrons losing about 350 aircraft. And if the Germans could readily replace the lost aircraft, German aircraft production was skyrocketing at the moment, they could not as easily replace the aircrews. Unlike the Allies who were training what appeared to be a limitless number of pilots, the Germans had increasing difficulty in both training new pilots and in properly training what new pilots it was getting. Each of the veteran "experten" lost was irreplaceable.
Sivas, February 23rd, 1944
The four men meeting in Cakmak's house for dinner had known each othersfor decades, Ismet Ismirli pasha and Kazim Karabekir, had both been senior officers in the past. They were also the closest thing had to an internal opposition. Technically both was members in good standing of the ruling Halk partisi. But both as Kemal's close confidants and lieutenants, Ismet had been his foreign minister and Karabekir had held the ministry of war for two decades, had been rivals of Recep Peker for the leadership of the country and had been left outside his government. Back in 1941-42 when Peker's policy appeared to deliver triumph after triumph this had looked like a death sentence to the political careers of both men. Now? Now it left them conveniently untainted from what had transpired under Peker. The last man present Osman Fuad Osmanoglou aside from a well respected military officer also happened to be second in line to the throne. Of course Franz Von Papen's and Peker's informers would not fail to notice the meeting...
The US 7th Infantry Division begun it's assault on the island, while simultaneously the 4th Marine Division assaulted Roi-Namur to it's north. The Japanese garrisons of both islands would fight virtually to the last man. But this would not stop the Americans from crushing all resistance and capturing both islands in just four days of fighting. Operations in the Marshall island would continue with Nimitz invading Ebeye island on February 4th.
Narva river, February 2nd, 1944
Three Soviet armies took the offensive against the new German defensive positions. But the Germans following the lifting of the siege of Leningrad had chose well. with their position behing the Narva river and between the gulf of Finland and Lake Peipus proving too strong. The Soviets would initially manage to cross the river, but the Germans would manage to destroy the Soviet bridgeheads. For the time being the German hold on Estonia would remain secure and so would their control of the shale oil deposits just behind the front-line. But the Soviets would persists with their attacks despite the rising casualties.
Stockholm, February 8th, 1944
Soviet and Finnish diplomats quietly start peace negotiations. But the procedure would prove difficult as Finland did not want to make any major concessions ad for the time being felt relatively secure. Only the perceived threat of the Soviet Narva offensive capturing Estonia and cutting off the supply lines to Germany had brought the Finns to the negotiating table.
Anzio, February 13th, 1944
The second Allied assault at Monte Cassino had come to a halt three days before, once more failing to break the German defenses despite thousands of casualties on both sides. Kesserling had lost no time to swing his reserves against the Anzio bridgehead and attacked in turn hoping to destroy the bridgehead. But over the next few days the defenders would prove too strong for the Germans with their attack stopped cold in front of Cisterna.
Pyrenees, February 14th, 1944
The last remnants of the Falangist army crossed over into German occupied France. The final offensive of the Spanish army had crossed the Ebro and crushed what remained of the Falangist army and state. Eduardo Lopez Ochoa had looked an unlikely candidate to lead Spain through two civil wars in a decade. Nevertheless he had and had triumphed in both. But now that the war was finally over and won, he had to also win the peace. The Spanish provisional government under Ochoa had included PSOE's Indalecio Pietro and Juan Negrin. It had not included PCE, although the communists on Moscow's instructions had supported the provisional government. But now that the war was finally over and the tide of the war in Europe appeared to be turning on Allied side, would La Pasionaria remain pliant?
Korsun. Ukraine, February 16th, 1944
Six German divisions with 60,000 men had been encircled by the Soviets three weeks earlier. The Germans would make a successful breakout attempt aided by attacks by the III and XLVII Panzer corps outside the pocket. But fewer than half the men would actually manage to escape, most of their material would remain behind and the relieving force would lose nearly ten thousand men of its attempt to relieve the pressure on the pocket.
Over Germany, February 20th, 1944
The Allied air forces begun a week of massive raids hoping to cripple the German aircraft industry and hopefully the Luftwaffe's fighter arm along with it. The raids would have only limited effect against the German factories and cost nearly 400 aircraft, most of them heavy bombers. But the Luftwaffe would also suffer heavily, in particular among its He-219 squadrons losing about 350 aircraft. And if the Germans could readily replace the lost aircraft, German aircraft production was skyrocketing at the moment, they could not as easily replace the aircrews. Unlike the Allies who were training what appeared to be a limitless number of pilots, the Germans had increasing difficulty in both training new pilots and in properly training what new pilots it was getting. Each of the veteran "experten" lost was irreplaceable.
Sivas, February 23rd, 1944
The four men meeting in Cakmak's house for dinner had known each othersfor decades, Ismet Ismirli pasha and Kazim Karabekir, had both been senior officers in the past. They were also the closest thing had to an internal opposition. Technically both was members in good standing of the ruling Halk partisi. But both as Kemal's close confidants and lieutenants, Ismet had been his foreign minister and Karabekir had held the ministry of war for two decades, had been rivals of Recep Peker for the leadership of the country and had been left outside his government. Back in 1941-42 when Peker's policy appeared to deliver triumph after triumph this had looked like a death sentence to the political careers of both men. Now? Now it left them conveniently untainted from what had transpired under Peker. The last man present Osman Fuad Osmanoglou aside from a well respected military officer also happened to be second in line to the throne. Of course Franz Von Papen's and Peker's informers would not fail to notice the meeting...
So with the Falangists out of Spain, I wonder what will happen to the CNT -FAI.