So, what about the Allies attempting to revive the dialects of "Low German" (and local identities in general) as part of a campaign to keep Germany divided even after demobilization?
Breaking up Germany in 1945
- Thread starter Burton K Wheeler
- Start date
Deleted member 1487
It would work about as well as any outside imposed effort to build an alternative identity on occupied peoples.
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
I think German cultural unification had come too far to turn the clock back. Maybe a forcibly separated Bavaria could grow its own identity, but attempts to impose a national identity aren't likely to be successful.
Look at the GDR as an real life example. The moment the SU decided to let it go, it was swalloed by the FRG.
Maybe the question should be more like :
Who did NOT have any plans of breaking up Germany.
Here are some examples of what ideas went around in french heads :
And here are some netherlandish thoughts :
Deleted member 1487
It was also bankrupt, which is part of the reason the USSR was willing to divest. Also the Russian army stayed in East Germany until 1994, years after reunification.
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
My rough timeline idea is:
June 1940: Anglo-French union (as per @Dunois TL).
France makes a fighting withdrawal to Corsica and North Africa. After the fall of France, French and British forces overrun Libya and seize the Dodecanese and Sardinia from Italy. The Germans and Italians counter with a Balkans offensive that captures all of Yugoslavia and Greece with the exception of Crete, along with an amphibious and airborne conquest of Corsica and Sardinia.
In the Pacific, Indochina resists Japanese demand for occupation, American Lend-Lease supplies and possibly Commonwealth troops reinforce the French.
Germany launches Barbarossa in May 1941 with less troops and less ambitious goals than OTL. The advance is halted somewhat short of where it halted OTL, though maybe a harder thrust can be aimed at Moscow to compensate. The 1942 offensive is probably still aimed at the Caucasus, since the Ploesti oilfields are going to be in even more danger from Crete.
Haven't thought of what Japan will do, though a 1942 strike on Indochina and the Philippines seems somewhat likely. Either way, the U.S. most likely enters the war in 1942 one way or another.
Allied forces will probably land somewhere in the Med, most likely Italy, in 1943, though timeline of landings depends on when the Americans enter the war.
The endstate is that the Russians nearly reach the Rhine and that the Allies have to scramble to secure France and the low countries. That's where this thread comes in.
My guess is at this point the Russians will make Germany a unified People's Republic and the Allies will have to pick up scraps. I'm thinking some border adjustments in favor of the Netherlands and maybe Denmark, a French plebescite in the Saarland, and a tiny "West Germany" based in the Ruhr.
June 1940: Anglo-French union (as per @Dunois TL).
France makes a fighting withdrawal to Corsica and North Africa. After the fall of France, French and British forces overrun Libya and seize the Dodecanese and Sardinia from Italy. The Germans and Italians counter with a Balkans offensive that captures all of Yugoslavia and Greece with the exception of Crete, along with an amphibious and airborne conquest of Corsica and Sardinia.
In the Pacific, Indochina resists Japanese demand for occupation, American Lend-Lease supplies and possibly Commonwealth troops reinforce the French.
Germany launches Barbarossa in May 1941 with less troops and less ambitious goals than OTL. The advance is halted somewhat short of where it halted OTL, though maybe a harder thrust can be aimed at Moscow to compensate. The 1942 offensive is probably still aimed at the Caucasus, since the Ploesti oilfields are going to be in even more danger from Crete.
Haven't thought of what Japan will do, though a 1942 strike on Indochina and the Philippines seems somewhat likely. Either way, the U.S. most likely enters the war in 1942 one way or another.
Allied forces will probably land somewhere in the Med, most likely Italy, in 1943, though timeline of landings depends on when the Americans enter the war.
The endstate is that the Russians nearly reach the Rhine and that the Allies have to scramble to secure France and the low countries. That's where this thread comes in.
My guess is at this point the Russians will make Germany a unified People's Republic and the Allies will have to pick up scraps. I'm thinking some border adjustments in favor of the Netherlands and maybe Denmark, a French plebescite in the Saarland, and a tiny "West Germany" based in the Ruhr.
The Saar actually was a separate country (in football terms, anyway) for a few years. It had separate FIFA membership, and actually competed in the qualifiers for the 1954 World Cup. They actually beat Norway, but somewhat unluckily lost to the eventual group winners - West Germany. Now there's a TL waiting to be written by a German. Saarland's coach was a guy called Helmut Schön, who would become somewhat better known later.
World Soccer feature.
World Soccer feature.
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
Based entirely on Wikipedia, it appears to have been treated as a separate country until 1957.
Looked up a couple of 101 sources, which give 1/1/57 as the date it formally became part of the Federal Republic. But I'm ignorant of everything except beer and football, really.
Despite expulsion of Germans east of Oder-Neisse and Red Army rapes Soviets were able to create GDR, loyal communist vasal state. Where was constant resistance? In 1945 Germany is broken and could only rely on Allies mercy.
Deleted member 1487
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uprising_of_1953_in_East_Germany
The East Germans weren't considered loyal and Soviet troops were kept in Germany until 1994 to ensure their loyalty. Did the same throughout most of the Warsaw Pact.
To make WAllies willing to broke Germany Soviets must be weakened. Perhaps they were only able to reconquer their pre-war territory when WAllies do the main job finishing Germany. That would make WAllies less concerned about USSR and more revengfull because they'll suffer bigger loses compared to OTL.
Soviet troops were concentrated in East Germany because GDR was borderzone of Soviet Outer Empire. These troops were there against NATO invasion, not against local resistance. In fact GDR was among most loyal Soviet puppets.
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
That was the conclusion I've drawn. Soviet conquered Germany - DDR. Allied conquered Germany will most likely be broken up.
East Germany was more loyal than Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Poland.
Deleted member 1487
How many Soviet troops were in East Germany? Plus the Stasi were probably one of the most repressive secret police in the world.
The presence of Soviet troops in country and the memory of what they did if the people step out of line against the regime was still strong. Also the regime was loyal because it understood who ensured it's survival.
Plus let's not discount the impact of over 1 million people fleeing west after WW2 but before the Berlin Wall went up, plus of course all the people that fled west or were forced out during and in the immediate aftermath of WW2. And of course the culling of disloyal people by Soviet and GDR secret police.
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
You're being kind of irrationally defensive of the inherent unitedness of the Volk here. IIRC, the Stasi was made up of East Germans, not Soviets.
Deleted member 1487
Hand selected regime loyal elements granted special privileges by the regime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi#Zersetzung
No doubt there were committed socialists in East Germany, but the need for the Berlin Wall belies the desire of the East Germans to live under Soviet/East German rule especially after the 1953 crackdowns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall#Brain_drain
Even Ukrainians and Lithuanians (who were inside Soviet Union) had more serious resistance than East Germans.