Breaking up Germany in 1945

[Burton K Wheeler]

I've only read about the postwar occupation of Germany in passing, so correct me if I'm wrong on anything here. Was breaking up Germany into smaller states that couldn't threaten Europe in the future ever on the table in 1945?

I know that West Germany was formed because the Allies wanted a buffer state between them and the Pact, but let's say the Soviets had occupied either all or none of Germany. Was there any point where breakup of Germany was suggested?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I've only read about the postwar occupation of Germany in passing, so correct me if I'm wrong on anything here. Was breaking up Germany into smaller states that couldn't threaten Europe in the future ever on the table in 1945?

I know that West Germany was formed because the Allies wanted a buffer state between them and the Pact, but let's say the Soviets had occupied either all or none of Germany. Was there any point where breakup of Germany was suggested?

Germany ceased to exist beyond occupation zones. There were multiple proposals about permanently breaking up Germany and even incorporating parts into neighboring states, as well as deindustrialization plans that were partially carried out. Thing is the economic realities of a united Germany and it's economy being too important to the health and recovery of Britain and France mooted all those plans, which led to the unification of all the non-Soviet zones into one trade area, which contributed to Soviet hostility to the Wallies around 1947-48, further fueled by the Marshall Plan.

Had the Soviets occupied all of Germany they'd have kept it together as a Soviet Germany under their control and occupied by Soviet troops as long as the USSR existed. If they occupied none of it...then maybe there would be some breakup, as they did with Austria, but I'd say probably not because again the economic realities were such that Germany was necessarily for European trade and couldn't exist as pre-uninification states without a Zollverein. Once they are economically integrated then politically it is a matter of time until some sort of federal administration would be in place. I'm not at all certain, but I do wonder if the existing structure of limited federal control in Germany and much stronger 'states' rights' is part of the post-war idea of relatively independent German states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allie...ustry_after_World_War_II#Moderation_of_policy
Basically even without the Cold War it is hard to see Germany being kept broken up once the economic consequences are assessed and the realities of what occupation to enforce it would actually mean.

 

[David T]

I've only read about the postwar occupation of Germany in passing, so correct me if I'm wrong on anything here. Was breaking up Germany into smaller states that couldn't threaten Europe in the future ever on the table in 1945?

I know that West Germany was formed because the Allies wanted a buffer state between them and the Pact, but let's say the Soviets had occupied either all or none of Germany. Was there any point where breakup of Germany was suggested?

From the Teheran Conference, here are FDR's proposal (which as he acknowledged was "merely exploratory") to break up Germany and Churchill's proposal to separate southern Germany from the rest of Germany and make it into part of a Danubian federation. (The latter idea probably had very little chance; as this transcript indicates, Stalin was firmly opposed to it.)

***

Roosevelt: The question of Germany.

Stalin: What are the proposals on this matter?

Roosevelt: The partition of Germany.

Churchill: I am for partitioning Germany. But I should like to consider
the question of partitioning Prussia. I am for separating Bavaria and the
other provinces from Germany.

Roosevelt: In order to stimulate our discussion on this question, I want
to set forth a plan for partitioning Germany into five states, which I
personally drew up two months ago.

Churchill: I should like to stress that the root of evil in Germany is
Prussia.

Roosevelt: I should like us to have a picture of the whole before we speak
of the separate components. In my opinion, Prussia must be weakened as far
as possible, and reduced in size. Prussia should constitute the first
independent part of Germany. The second part of Germany should include
Hannover and the north-western regions of Germany. The third part --
Saxony and the Leipzig area. The fourth part -- Hessen Province,
Darmstadt, Kassel and the areas to the south of the Rhine, and also the
old towns of Westphalia. The fifth part -- Bavaria, Baden, Württemberg.
Each of these five parts would be an independent state. In addition, the
regions of the Kiel Canal and Hamburg should be separated from Germany.
These regions would be administered by the United Nations, or the four
Powers. The Ruhr and the Saar must be placed either under the control of
the United Nations or under the trusteeship of the whole of Europe. That
is my proposal. I must add that it is merely exploratory.

Churchill: You have said a mouthful. I think there are two questions: one
-- destructive, the other -- constructive. I have two ideas: the first is
to isolate Prussia from the rest of Germany; the second is to separate
Germany's southern provinces -- Bavaria, Baden, Württemberg, the
Palatinate, from the Saar to Saxony inclusive. I would keep Prussia in
strict condition. I think it would be easy to sever the southern provinces
from Prussia and include them in a Danubian federation. The people who
live in the Danube basin are not the cause of war. At any rate, I would
give the Prussians harsher treatment than the other Germans. The southern
Germans will not start a new war.

Stalin: I do not like the plan for new associations of states. If it is
decided to partition Germany no new associations need be set up. Whether
it is five or six states, and two regions into which Roosevelt proposes to
divide Germany, this plan of Roosevelt's to weaken Germany can be
examined. Like us, Churchill will soon have to deal with great masses of
Germans. Churchill will then see that it is not only the Prussians who are
fighting in the German Army but also Germans from the other provinces of
Germany. Only the Austrians, when surrendering, shout "I'm Austrian", and
our soldiers accept them. As for the Germans from Germany's other
provinces they fight with equal doggedness. Regardless of how we approach
the partitioning of Germany there is no need to set up some new
association of Danubian states lacking vitality. Hungary and Austria must
exist separately. Austria existed as a separate state until it was seized.

Roosevelt: I agree with Marshal Stalin, in particular, that there is no
difference between Germans from the various German provinces. Fifty years
ago there was a difference but now all German soldiers are alike. It is
true that this does not apply to the Prussian officers.

Churchill: I should not like to be understood as not favouring the
partition of Germany. But I wanted to say that if Germany is broken up
into several parts without these parts being combined then, as Marshal
Stalin said, the time will come when the Germans will unite.

Stalin: There are no steps that could exclude the possibility of Germany's
unification.

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/teheran.htm

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

I was leaning towards a Soviet-occupied dismembered Germany, but David's quote seems to back up wiking's assertion that the Soviets would prefer a united Germany.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I was leaning towards a Soviet-occupied dismembered Germany, but David's quote seems to back up wiking's assertion that the Soviets would prefer a united Germany.

Though likely not a serious offer, Stalin did offer to unify the occupation zones into a neutral, demilitarized, independent Germany:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_Note

Also it should be noted that Adenauer also wanted to break off Prussia and was even inclined against the capital ever returning to Berlin. At one point he even made a proposal to trade West Berlin for more of Thuringia.
http://www.spiegel.de/international...ap-west-berlin-for-parts-of-gdr-a-780385.html

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

This is obviously earlier than 1945, but in a world where the Germany had done better against the Soviets and the Western Allies were largely responsible for the defeat of the Third Reich (likely as a result of atomic bombings), then you'd probably get a postwar map that looks something like this:

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

This is obviously earlier than 1945, but in a world where the Germany had done better against the Soviets and the Western Allies were largely responsible for the defeat of the Third Reich (likely as a result of atomic bombings), then you'd probably get a postwar map that looks something like this:

View attachment 358203

Good sketch of the Roosevelt plan, as discussed above.

I suspect the Saar and Ruhr will very likely be occupied by the Allies if they can manage it at all. The French might try to annex the Saar via plebescite, but not sure what the fate of the Ruhr might be. It's too big to be annexed, maybe the core of a small German state?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I suspect the Saar and Ruhr will very likely be occupied by the Allies if they can manage it at all. The French might try to annex the Saar via plebescite, but not sure what the fate of the Ruhr might be. It's too big to be annexed, maybe the core of a small German state?

Perhaps some sort of a 'West Germany'?

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

Perhaps some sort of a 'West Germany'?

Sure, but a geographically tiny one with 10 million people.

The context for me asking this question was thoughts about a Franco-British union. Having Germany out of the way essentially makes AngloFrance the EU by default.

 

[Knightmare]

Unlikely to ever happen, it'd be faced with near constant resistance by most of the survivors, and I can damn well tell you the german-Americans would not be happy either.

 

[manav95]

I don't get why Stalin would want a united, economically integrated Germany. His country has fought the Germans twice in bloody wars, and the Soviets have little reason to trust it won't happen again. Not to mention it would be hard to try and make Germany a Communist state given the ties and aid it would get from the West. I feel he would be inclined to chop Germany up into 5 or 6 parts, much easier to divide and influence.

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

Stalin had lived in Vienna. He probably had more familiarity with the Germans than either Churchill or Roosevelt, though Churchill visited Germany several times. I don't think Roosevelt ever visited Germany.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Sure, but a geographically tiny one with 10 million people.

The context for me asking this question was thoughts about a Franco-British union. Having Germany out of the way essentially makes AngloFrance the EU by default.

Except for Britain wanting the EU as a vehicle to harness Germany to the rest of Europe to contain it (much like Briand wanted in the late 1920s-early '30s), not something they would join. IOTL Germany was out of the way and France/the Benelux/EEC was the heart of the EU. Thing is Germany recovered and eventually reunified and overtook Europe.

There is really no way to get a Franco-British union by the 20th century or even by the 15th Century. The Brits had/has their identity as an island apart from the continent.
https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-7122-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b926

I don't get why Stalin would want a united, economically integrated Germany. His country has fought the Germans twice in bloody wars, and the Soviets have little reason to trust it won't happen again. Not to mention it would be hard to try and make Germany a Communist state given the ties and aid it would get from the West. I feel he would be inclined to chop Germany up into 5 or 6 parts, much easier to divide and influence.

Marx being a German and viewing Germany as the spiritual heart of Communism had a major role in the views of the Communist leaders toward the state and people. Stalin wanted a communist Germany allied to the USSR and viewed the inevitable victory of communism, including in Germany, and Britain and other capitalist states as the true enemy; even with Hitler he viewed the Nazis as the lesser enemy than the empires of Europe and American capitalism. Stalin also wanted German help with their technology to enhance the USSR and communism.

Stalin had lived in Vienna. He probably had more familiarity with the Germans than either Churchill or Roosevelt, though Churchill visited Germany several times. I don't think Roosevelt ever visited Germany.

Roosevelt visited Germany as a child and had some bad experiences, remaining pretty anti-German throughout his life.
https://fdrlibrary.tumblr.com/post/92549748049/day-61-fdrs-childhood-trips-to-germany-fdr

Day 61: FDR’s Childhood Trips to Germany

FDR made a number of trips to Europe with his parents during his childhood, including numerous trips to Germany. The Roosevelts often traveled to Germany to visit several ancient springs in hope that they would help Mr. James’ health.

Roosevelt historian Geoff Ward recounts a story of one of these German trips in his book Before the Trumpet. During a trip in 1896 FDR and his tutor Mr. Dumper “found themselves under arrest four times in one busy day of bicycling – for picking cherries along the roadside, for wheeling their bicycles into a railroad depot, for riding into Strasbourg after dusk…and finally, for inadvertent slaughter of a panicky goose that had thrust its long neck between the spokes of Mr. Dumper’s front wheel.” FDR managed to get them out of the first three violations without a fine, but in the end they did have to pay five marks to the owner of the goose. “Franklin always maintained the bird had really ‘committed suicide.’”

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

I don't get why Stalin would want a united, economically integrated Germany. His country has fought the Germans twice in bloody wars, and the Soviets have little reason to trust it won't happen again. Not to mention it would be hard to try and make Germany a Communist state given the ties and aid it would get from the West. I feel he would be inclined to chop Germany up into 5 or 6 parts, much easier to divide and influence.

I don't understand the reasoning either, but everything I've seen implies that he wanted a united Germany.

 

[rommel12]

how the European economy was affected in the future if the allies were turned the country of germany into land of crops as some wanted.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I don't understand the reasoning either, but everything I've seen implies that he wanted a united Germany.

Stalin assumed Germany would become communist and a united Germany would be more ripe to communist influences and wouldn't align with the 'capitalist' states. The Wallies feared communist influences in Germany post-war, which is part of the reason why they reversed their harsh polices in the mid-1940s and unified their holdings as well as provided Marshall Plan aid.

how the European economy was affected in the future if the allies were turned the country of germany into land of crops as some wanted.

A much poorer France and Britain among other states. That and the death of tens of millions of people who could not be fed or employed and would resist the occupiers. They'd probably look to Stalin as their savior.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

Stalin assumed Germany would become communist and a united Germany would be more ripe to communist influences and wouldn't align with the 'capitalist' states. The Wallies feared communist influences in Germany post-war, which is part of the reason why they reversed their harsh polices in the mid-1940s and unified their holdings as well as provided Marshall Plan aid.

A much poorer France and Britain among other states. That and the death of tens of millions of people who could not be fed or employed and would resist the occupiers. They'd probably look to Stalin as their savior.

That makes sense when you put it that way. I was failing to think in a proper Marxist-Leninist manner. I'll go ahead and turn myself into the nearest reeducation center.

 

[Wallet]

A unified germany will also be a stronger ally against the Soviet Union. The first General-Secretsry of NATO said its purpose was “to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.”

Well, that mentality quickly went away concerning the Germans. When the Iron Curtin went up, the need for a stable and well defended Germany to serve as a buffer for France was needed. That meant German troops and a united (western) Germany that could fund a (closely monitored) military.

Had Operation "Unthinkable" occurred or WW3 breaks out in 1945/1946 and the Soviets are defeated, there would be no incentive to built up Germany. Yes a united Germany is critical for europe's financial future but the prevailing thought in the 40s was punishment

 

[David T]

I don't get why Stalin would want a united, economically integrated Germany. His country has fought the Germans twice in bloody wars, and the Soviets have little reason to trust it won't happen again. Not to mention it would be hard to try and make Germany a Communist state given the ties and aid it would get from the West. I feel he would be inclined to chop Germany up into 5 or 6 parts, much easier to divide and influence.

Stalin hoped that a united Germany would become a Communist state because of the presence of the Red Army in at least part of the country, the swing to the Left in much of Europe (even outside the Soviet bloc) at the end of World War II, and the desperate economic conditions in Germany as a whole. So while consolidating his power in the Soviet zone, he did make moves for unification (on terms favorable for him, of course).

BTW, here are Ernest Bevin's recollections of a conversation with Molotov in 1947:

"Now, Mr Molotov, what is it that you want? What are you after? Do you want to get Austria behind your Iron Curtain? You can't do that. Do you want Turkey and the Straits ? You can't have them. Do you want Korea? You can't have that. You are putting your neck out too far, and one day you will have it chopped off.. .. You cannot look on me as an enemy of Russia. Why, when our Government was trying to stamp out your Revolution, who was it that stopped it? It was I, Ernest Bevin. I called out the transport workers and they refused to load the ships. Now again I am speaking to you as a friend... If war comes between you and America in the East, then we may be able to remain neutral. But if war comes between you and America in the West, then we shall be on America's side. Make no mistake about that. That would be the end of Russia and of your Revolution. So please stop sticking out your neck in this way and tell me what you are after. What do you want?"

"I want a unified Germany," said Molotov.

"Why do you want that? Do you really believe that a unified Germany would go Communist? They might pretend to. They would say all the right things and repeat all the correct formulas. But in their hearts they would be longing for the day when they would revenge their defeat at Stalingrad. You know that as well as I do."

"Yes," said Molotov, "I know that. But I still want a unified Germany."

http://spartacus-educational.com/TUbevin.htm

 

[Deleted member 1487]

That makes sense when you put it that way. I was failing to think in a proper Marxist-Leninist manner. I'll go ahead and turn myself into the nearest reeducation center.

That's the thing, some of Stalin's behavior makes little sense until you account for the influence of ideology on his world view. Stalin was a true believer.

Had Operation "Unthinkable" occurred or WW3 breaks out in 1945/1946 and the Soviets are defeated, there would be no incentive to built up Germany. Yes a united Germany is critical for europe's financial future but the prevailing thought in the 40s was punishment

Mid-1940's...sort of. The Morgenthau boys and FDR certainly thought that way (Morgenthau was even saying into the 1960s that WW3 would be against the Germans), but they got relatively quickly filtered out after FDR's death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan
Churchill and the Brits weren't for it and even the US military wasn't keen leveling Germany. There was a faction that thought in terms of punishment, but they largely hinged on FDR and lost power progressively as Truman got up to speed and the realities of post-WW2 peace set in.