WI: The Emperor Converts

Minnesota_Nationalist

Minnesota_Nationalist

The historic animosity and struggle between the Pope and the Holy Roman Emperor is a famous one, a struggle that often included having the Emperor create a new Pope as a puppet, and the old Pope humiliating or excommunicating the Emperor.

With that said, the Protestant Reformation seemed like a near perfect out for the Emperors, no longer having their will being bent by Rome, they could answer to God alone. But, there was that 1 in a hundred chance that an Emperor who decided to be more friendly to Rome came to power, and as it happened the Pope-friendly Charles V came to the throne just in time for that to happen.

So, what would happen if the Emperor (or any other possible Emperor) had converted to Protestantism?
 

BlueFlowwer

To put it simply: A shitstorm of Epic Proportions

But the idea is really interesting. Would the Pope give the title to the king of Spain instead?
 
fluttersky

fluttersky

When I read the thread title I thought it would be about the Eastern Roman Emperor converting to Islam.

Titles should be more specific! :p
 

cmakk1012

Why not a series of these?
The Tang Emperor converts to Islam
The Qing Emperor converts to Christianity
The Japanese Emperor converts to Christianity
An earlier Roman Emperor converts to Christianity... or to Zoroastrianism
 

PhilippeO

Banned
if Matthias had children, pro-Protestant Habsburg could emerge since they opposed by other more-Catholic branch house.
 

Fabius Maximus

Minnesota_Nationalist said:
So, what would happen if the Emperor (or any other possible Emperor) had converted to Protestantism?
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The Pope and Emperor had had their disagreements in the past, but I'm not sure the Empire's legitimacy could survive rejecting the institution of the Papacy -- after all, the HRE had its origin with the Pope crowning Charlemagne back in 800. If the Emperor did convert to Protestantism, we'd most likely see the German princes claiming that he'd thereby forfeited his authority and was no longer their legitimate ruler, leading to a repeat of the Investiture Controversy of the eleventh century.
 
Minnesota_Nationalist

Minnesota_Nationalist

Fabius Maximus said:
The Pope and Emperor had had their disagreements in the past, but I'm not sure the Empire's legitimacy could survive rejecting the institution of the Papacy -- after all, the HRE had its origin with the Pope crowning Charlemagne back in 800. If the Emperor did convert to Protestantism, we'd most likely see the German princes claiming that he'd thereby forfeited his authority and was no longer their legitimate ruler, leading to a repeat of the Investiture Controversy of the eleventh century.
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Many Kingdoms within Christiandom had much of their authority based around Papacy. England's own dominion over Ireland, for example, was granted by the Papacy, and the Teutonic Knights themselves eventually cast off the Papacy for Lutherism.

Granted, there of course would be some sort of succession dispute, see France's Wars of Religion, England's Jacobite succession, and the Swedish-Polish wars, and just about any other kingdom-turned-Protestant, but I don't think it would be the death knell of the HRE, just as it wasn't to England and all those others.
 

Young Lochinvar

JackLumber said:
The pope choosing the emperor is an insult of the highest order to their position as electors, the protestant electors would not accept the pope of all people telling them who their emperor was
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Before 1508 the Electors didn't elect the Holy Roman Emperor they elected the King of the Romans which was the de jure title of what was de facto the King of Germany and King of Italy (though significantly less re Italy this after the Italian Wars). It was then the Pope's prerogative to invest the King of the Romans with the Emperor-ship. Maximilian I was the first to receive Papal dispensation to be the uncrowned Holy Roman Emperor in 1508 and took the title-form Elected Roman Emperor (Erwählter Römischer Kaiser). All HR Emperors after Max. would use this title and remained uncrowned except for his direct successor, Charles V the last crowned Emperor. Now Luther posts the 95 Theses in 1517 and Maximilian dies in 1519, 14 months apart. This means that the precedence for uncrowned Emperors is weak and the Pope if he's feeling powerful or indignant enough could to refuse to enthrone an Emperor without a coronation.

If by some fluke there is a Protestant King of the Romans elevated by the Electors, there is no way the Pope would consent to them being Holy Roman Emperor (though the Protestant Emperor might claim the title anyway). In this scenario the title might be used by the Pope as a way to buy military assistance in crushing the Protestant Germans. The likely claimants for the 1519 election would be Charles V (OTL the next HREmperor but also ruler of Spain, Austria and the Netherlands amongst others) and King Francis I, of France who tried to win the election OTL. Charles is the superior claimant as Maximilian's grandson and if the Pope enthrones him Emperor without the electors consent it could lead to a tacit consent for making the King-ship/Emperor-ship of the Romans formally hereditary. This in turn could fracture the HRE into a Catholic Hereditary Emperor bloc and a Protestant Elected Emperor bloc.

Now I've probably taken this a little to far down one path but I think it's an interesting scenario.

There's also the question of whether a viable Emperor would turn Protestant. On the one hand there's the stability of the Empire but on the other there's one's own immortal soul.
 
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Fabius Maximus

Minnesota_Nationalist said:
Many Kingdoms within Christiandom had much of their authority based around Papacy. England's own dominion over Ireland, for example, was granted by the Papacy, and the Teutonic Knights themselves eventually cast off the Papacy for Lutherism.
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Both the examples you cite were replaced by new entities (the Kingdom of Ireland and the Duchy of Prussia, respectively), precisely because they'd owed their legitimacy to the Church. So, I don't think these are particularly good counter-examples -- unless you're suggesting that the Emperor would dissolve the Empire and replace it with something else, which I suppose is possible, although if he did so the Pope would most likely just appoint someone else as Emperor, leading to no end of trouble and internal conflict.
 
Minnesota_Nationalist

Minnesota_Nationalist

Fabius Maximus said:
Both the examples you cite were replaced by new entities (the Kingdom of Ireland and the Duchy of Prussia, respectively), precisely because they'd owed their legitimacy to the Church. So, I don't think these are particularly good counter-examples -- unless you're suggesting that the Emperor would dissolve the Empire and replace it with something else, which I suppose is possible, although if he did so the Pope would most likely just appoint someone else as Emperor, leading to no end of trouble and internal conflict.
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Fair enough, should have thought my argument through a little bit more. I can imagine the only way that the HRE could be rebuilt under a Protestant Emperor is if they gave the princes a lot of independent power, just like OTL. Either that, or the Emperor has to be some sort of diplomatic or military genius. Otherwise, I wouldn't be shocked to see many of the Princes staying out of the Pro.HRE
 
Icedaemon

Icedaemon

I like the idea of the split between an elective Kaiserreich and a hereditary Austria-led HRE which would thereby be equal parts southern Germania and northern Italy.
 

Emperor Constantine

Not gonna happen. The Habsburgs had a monopoly on the title from 1444 onwards and if the Habsburg Emperor converted we'd see a civil war led by the nearest Catholic Archduke. The best case would see the Emperor deposed in there hereditary lands and keep the empty imperial title, not unlike Rudolf II.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Emperor Constantine said:
Not gonna happen. The Habsburgs had a monopoly on the title from 1444 onwards and if the Habsburg Emperor converted we'd see a civil war led by the nearest Catholic Archduke. The best case would see the Emperor deposed in there hereditary lands and keep the empty imperial title, not unlike Rudolf II.
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What's the "nearest Catholic Archduke?" IF the Habsburgs go you have left... Bavaria. Hrm. Not exactly inspiring.

I think you need a prince who is more pro-reform than Charles V, who even in OTL speculated, during a fight with the Pope, that "perhaps Martin Luther could become a man of worth." The "Protestant" church would likely claim to be a reformed, universal church, perhaps like Anglicianism on steroids.
 
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