Wi: pulsejet AAMs in WW1?

The pulsejet is uncomplicated enough to be built, and fast enough to catch even fighters.

Guidance is an issue. Acoustic? (Draw from, and/or feed into, ASW hydrophones?)

It would seem to make Zep raids impossible.

Can it influence WW1? Can (would) it lead to ATMs?

Does it accelerate things enough to crimp the WW2 bomber offensive?

Could it enable armed helicopters?

Or is this too impractical to consider?
 
Impractical to say the least. Won't climb fast enough, would have to be manually guided via wire or radio and hit directly, too large to fit on most planes of the time, range would be very short and response time too slow. it would also be very easy to evade if you see it coming, which you will in most cases. In short, useless. You need rocket engines plain and simple for AAMs to make sense. Until then guns would just be outright superior in all roles.

It would do none of the things you describe here and development potential is near zero.
 
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Pulsejets are nosy, so acoustic homing won't work, the thing would "deafen" itself.
I missed that...:'(
Won't climb fast enough
Fired more/less level, I don't see an issue.
too large to fit on most planes of the time
Four 25pd bomb wasn't. I'm not seeing these notional missiles being V-1 sized...
guns would just be outright superior in all roles.
I accept that as likely.
 
Pulsejets could not be zero speed launched by themselves as they did not produce enough thrust to get them airborne - they needed catapults/rockets to get them up to speed before the pulsejet acted as a sustainer motor.

WW1 aircraft probable don't fly fast enough to get a pulsejet up to flying speed. They would need a rocket booster. If you are going to do that, why not just use rockets.
 
Pulsejets are nosy, so acoustic homing won't work, the thing would "deafen" itself.
Isn't that only applicable to torpedoes? For ground launched or air launched missiles it would be tuned to specific frequencies (which would ignore the pulsejet's operational one) like enemy piston engines? (I believe the Germans during WW2 made a few prototypes of such missiles, though, most were rocket powered)
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Pulsejets could not be zero speed launched by themselves as they did not produce enough thrust to get them airborne - they needed catapults/rockets to get them up to speed before the pulsejet acted as a sustainer motor.

WW1 aircraft probable don't fly fast enough to get a pulsejet up to flying speed. They would need a rocket booster. If you are going to do that, why not just use rockets.
Most pulsejets have an engine starter in the form of a compressed air tank and spark plug, it lets the engine run for a while before it reaches the required speeds. If you were to look on YT you will see a bunch of amateur or professional pulsejets that can be easily started.
 
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Guidance is an issue. Acoustic? (Draw from, and/or feed into, ASW hydrophones?)
I see a number of problems with that. First off, air is substantially less conductive of sound than water is. I'm not sure there is much in the way of cross-feed to draw from the field of ASW. An aerophone simply won't function anywhere near as well as a hydrophone and there's not a lot you can do about the medium's properties.

As I understand it, all acoustic aircraft locators of the era were static? They didn't need to deal with flow noise. A would-be WWI pulsejet AAM is going to be launched by a pursuing aircraft at say 90kts. So for a reasonable closing speed on the enemy aircraft, speed would have to be at least 200kts? At that speed, flow noise would be prodigious! A SSN that is sprinting is effectively deaf from flow noise and has to periodically drift to detect threats (I presume a SSN going active is as undesirable as popular culture makes it out to be :)).

Also, the detectors that I can find pictures of are not exactly what I would call aerodynamic. I would also be concerned with the launch-aircraft's own noise. Wouldn't this "white-out" any acoustic sensor and necessitate a rather ambitious for the day lock-on after launch?

Wire-guidance on a tractor propeller aircraft is impractical for obvious reasons. The slightest manoeuvre and *snip*. I suppose it might be viable on a pusher, provided it has the performance to carry both missile and spool.

There is a picture of Casanova's pulsejet online and I have serious doubts of getting such a monster under anything other than a heavy bomber of the era in question. Certainly, this could be scaled to fit but before the armistice? Again, I have doubts. I think any notional missile would have to be a singleton carried on the aircraft centre-line. I'm not sure many aircraft of the era would have the structural strength to mount such weight significantly outboard or the control authority necessary for the inevitable asymmetric condition.

I note that this notional device is not intended to be as heavy as a V-1 but it is still going to be a considerable weight that will dictate a bomber to carry it. Fuel, "guidance", warhead, control surfaces and the pulsejet will all quite quickly add up and outstrip the payloads of most fighter aircraft of the day. You certainly won't see a Sopwith Camel zipping about with one! I think it is fair to say placing a lumbering bomber on a mission where it is purposely seeking out enemy fighters is operationally dubious!

The only way I see to prevent this is to go for some kind of simple, lightweight "flying stovepipe" design, forgoing guidance and warhead and relying on a hit to kill, in which case you could save a great deal of effort by using rockets, as mentioned upthread.

ETA: Some further thoughts on such early guidance. Wikipedia has Sperry developing a "straight-and-level" autopilot in 1912. When was the first multi-channel autopilot developed? Assuming acoustical detection were possible, how is the signal actually being processed with circa 1918 technology? I have this facetious image of pattern matching being accomplished by wax cylinder! If somehow tuned to hunt for a specific frequency, surely different engines produce peak signal at different frequencies? Since the target would be manoeuvring, how is Doppler being compensated for? This really seems to be beyond the state-of-the-art for WWI.

If it took the form of simply seeking out a loud noise somewhere forward - which I think is probably the very best you could hope for for Great War era technology, some form of droppable noise-maker would seem to be an absurdly easy countermeasure to arrive at.
 
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Answering my own question (doh), there was more unmanned aircraft development in WWI than I was previously aware of. Upon further reading however, neither the Ruston Proctor AT, Curtiss/Hewitt-Sperry or Kettering Bug projects would seem to have had the reliability or performance to intercept a cooperative, straight-line aerial target, let alone a manoeuvring one. All were substantially slower than the fighters of the day. I doubt the systems of the day could cope with the rapid inputs necessary to achieve an intercept at speed.


I don't know about AAM, but as long range artillery they could be useful
That would be a more practical use, rendering the problems of weight, speed and guidance moot. If nothing else, the pulsejet should be more cheaply produced than the piston engines the various flying bomb projects used historically.
 
Answering my own question (doh), there was more unmanned aircraft development in WWI than I was previously aware of. Upon further reading however, neither the Ruston Proctor AT, Curtiss/Hewitt-Sperry or Kettering Bug projects would seem to have had the reliability or performance to intercept a cooperative, straight-line aerial target, let alone a manoeuvring one. All were substantially slower than the fighters of the day. I doubt the systems of the day could cope with the rapid inputs necessary to achieve an intercept at speed.
Archibald Low stated "in 1917 the Experimental Works designed an electrically steered rocket... Rocket experiments were conducted under my own patents with the help of Cdr. Brock"[16] Like Low, Brock was an experimental officer. Brock commanded the Royal Navy Experimental Station at Stratford. Pertinent to these rocket experiments, Brock was also a Director of the C.T. Brock & Co. fireworks manufacturers. The patent "Improvements in Rockets" was raised in July 1918 referring by then to the Royal Air Force. It was not published until February 1923 for security reasons. Firing and guidance controls could be either wire or wireless. The propulsion and guidance rocket eflux emerged from the deflecting cowl at the nose. The 1950s IWM exhibition label states "Later in 1917, an electrically steered rocket was designed…. with the designed purpose of pursuing a hostile airman." A model of this dirigible rocket was included in this exhibition.[17] The model was accompanied by a note: "Exhibit that is part of Professor AM Low's exhibits. Model of the wireless controlled dirigible rocket missile designed to pursue a hostile airman."

 
The pulsejet is uncomplicated enough to be built, and fast enough to catch even fighters.

Guidance is an issue. Acoustic? (Draw from, and/or feed into, ASW hydrophones?)

It would seem to make Zep raids impossible.

Can it influence WW1? Can (would) it lead to ATMs?

Does it accelerate things enough to crimp the WW2 bomber offensive?

Could it enable armed helicopters?

Or is this too impractical to consider?
At best it would be an unguided rocket whose only advantage over an AAA gun would be warhead size and terrifically expensive over AAA
 
So you reject the prospect of radio guidance?


Not clear to me that's true, eithr.
In the period of WW1 yes - the individual threads of that tech may have existed but as a technology to guide a AAM nowhere near mature enough - it wasn't even mature in WW2 with weapons such as Azon and Fritz X etc just about capable of of being guided to a target and the first real attempt at an Air to Air Missile the X4 never really tested and the US Firebird again perhaps a better weapon never really tested with the intended in date service of the weapon being the early 50s but it was overtaken by development and the increasing speed of aircraft so didn't.

AAA would be cheaper because it was far more mature and far easier to implement.

It would take a very tall If Tree to change the above.

Not saying its impossible or ASB, just highly improbable.
 
The patent "Improvements in Rockets" was raised in July 1918 referring by then to the Royal Air Force. It was not published until February 1923 for security reasons. Firing and guidance controls could be either wire or wireless. The propulsion and guidance rocket eflux emerged from the deflecting cowl at the nose. The 1950s IWM exhibition label states "Later in 1917, an electrically steered rocket was designed…. with the designed purpose of pursuing a hostile airman." A model of this dirigible rocket was included in this exhibition.[17] The model was accompanied by a note: "Exhibit that is part of Professor AM Low's exhibits. Model of the wireless controlled dirigible rocket missile designed to pursue a hostile airman."
I almost linked that same page but found it to be a bit of a mixed bag. Specifically on the part you quoted, Low's patents, models, exhibits, wishes and good intentions are all very good but they are years away from any kind of viable, operational system, if at all. Don't believe everything you read in a glossy brochure from an exhibitor! I'm still waiting for my tactical laser from the 90s!

The Hewitt-Sperry, Ruston-Proctor & Kettering aircraft all at least actually flew during WWI. They represent the true state of the technology available in WWI. They may just be able to hit the broad side of a Zeppelin (maybe) but they are a long way away from being able to "catch even fighters" as in the OP. They are also effectively aircraft in their own right and can't really be considered to be AAMs i.e. an auxiliary, expendable, guided vehicle released from a larger parent aircraft. You could make an argument for them being potential but barely-effective SAMs.

Yes, this is alternate history and we can bring the technology forward. The problem with that though is that the RAE Larynx was barely successful in 1929 and the Fairey Queen was crashing within seconds off of HMS Valiant in 1932 and these were only required to perform the most basic of manoeuvres. I have a hard time envisioning a viable, air-launched anti-air weapon, sufficiently miniaturized to conform to approximately our definition of an AAM today being available in the mid-1930s. Influencing WWI? It's a real stretch.

In the period of WW1 yes - the individual threads of that tech may have existed but as a technology to guide a AAM nowhere near mature enough - it wasn't even mature in WW2....

It would take a very tall If Tree to change the above.
Fervently agree. Probably should have just quoted that first. :)
 
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I almost linked that same page but found it to be a bit of a mixed bag. Specifically on the part you quoted, Low's patents, models, exhibits, wishes and good intentions are all very good but they are years away from any kind of viable, operational system, if at all. Don't believe everything you read in a glossy brochure from an exhibitor! I'm still waiting for my tactical laser from the 90s!

The Hewitt-Sperry, Ruston-Proctor & Kettering aircraft all at least actually flew during WWI. They represent the true state of the technology available in WWI. They may just be able to hit the broad side of a Zeppelin (maybe) but they are a long way away from being able to "catch even fighters" as in the OP. They are also effectively aircraft in their own right and can't really be considered to be AAMs i.e. an auxiliary, expendable, guided vehicle released from a larger parent aircraft. You could make an argument for them being potential but barely-effective SAMs.

Yes, this is alternate history and we can bring the technology forward. The problem with that though is that the RAE Larynx was barely successful in 1929 and the Fairey Queen was crashing within seconds off of HMS Valiant in 1932 and these were only required to perform the most basic of manoeuvres. I have a hard time envisioning a viable, air-launched anti-air weapon, sufficiently miniaturized to conform to approximately our definition of an AAM today being available in the mid-1930s. Influencing WWI? It's a real stretch.
In general I don’t disagree. I just linked to it as POD fodder. The systems available had the same limitations in maximum height that an aircraft would have, but instead of being controlled by a pilot in the seat they were controlled from the ground. They could also be less maneuverable and slower. So as platforms to actually attack either zeppelins or bombers they were probably less useful than regular aircraft. Likewise the rocket would have been limited by its effective range, speed and the relatively difficult process of steering it from the ground by releasing effluent from cowls near the nose of the rocket. In short, interesting visions of the future but not so viable as weapon systems that they can replace what is already in use.

However, all of this is not a reflection on Low’s system, which was , effectively, just a radio control system. And apparently worked just fine, while the war was still on. It’s perhaps telling that development of the system turned to controlling boats, which can continue for a time on their own if you lose sight of them (at least until they get to the target area).

So, not a failure of Low’s system so much as a lack of platforms with the required performance.
 
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