WI Much earlier .32 H&R Magnum?

[Magniac]

So, what if the British military decided against adopting a .38/200 revolver round during the interwar period, and instead uploaded the .32 S&W Long cartridge to mimic the performance of their French allies' 7.65mm Longue automatic round? This would create the equivalent of the .32 Harrington & Richardson Magnum a half century earlier than OTL, with a 77 grain projectile fired at a muzzle velocity of 1132 fps, compared to the .32 H&R's 85grn projectile reaching 1100 feet per second.
(I'm thinking this is more plausible than U.S. commercial ammo manufacturers producing the equivalent of a .32 S&W Long +P+ round during the roaring twenties--real men like George S. Patton wanted something like a .357 Magnum to be invented, not for a little more oompfh out of what was mostly considered the equivalent of a pocket-pistol calibre.)
So, at a time when standard pressure .38 Special ammunition achieved relatively low kinetic energy, and the early versions of .38 Spl+ were only for the most serious shooters (very powerful, much recoil) a .32 round is offered that offers better stopping power than normal .38 Special rounds (but with the same recoil. As well as in a smaller framed revolver.)
Okay, the Depression means that perhaps it takes the sale of surplus British revolvers on the U.S. market after WWII for this round to take off in the land of the free--if so, what chance does it have to challenge .38 Spl as America's then favourite revolver cartridge, and indeed harm the chances of .357 Magnum and .38 Spl + becoming as widespread as they did (AFAIK both of those rounds & the handguns designed to fire them only became dominant in the 1950s.)
Thoughts, pistoleros?

 

[Billi the Axe]

The facination European seem to have with under powered pistol rounds has always puzzled me. The .38 cal round has been in existence since the 1860's and was a popular chambering for the Colt pistols of the era. Getting the .32 cal round to be more popular and accepted in the US is a pipe dream. It has niether the range or stopping power required in most situations requiring a pistol. merican policemen aren't going to carry it period. Nor is it a useful round for a back-up pistol in hunting situations.
In fact most Ordanance officers thought the 38 was uder powered hence the M-1917 45 cal pistols to replace it.

 

[YLi]

What he said. I am an avid shooter, and I can tell you, I would NEVER use .32. A 75 gr. slug is pretty much worthless for killing small game or for self defense.

 

[Magniac]

The facination European seem to have with under powered pistol rounds has always puzzled me. The .38 cal round has been in existence since the 1860's and was a popular chambering for the Colt pistols of the era. Getting the .32 cal round to be more popular and accepted in the US is a pipe dream. It has niether the range or stopping power required in most situations requiring a pistol. merican policemen aren't going to carry it period. Nor is it a useful round for a back-up pistol in hunting situations.
In fact most Ordanance officers thought the 38 was uder powered hence the M-1917 45 cal pistols to replace it.

I should make clear that I'm positing that a revolver round that produces 240 pounds-per-square-feet of muzzle energy (the hypothetical British cartridge designed for performance akin to France's WWII-era autoloader) would challenge standard pressure .38 Special ammo.
Why?
Because the vast majority of .38 Special ammo fired before about 1950 was of a type that could only produce a bit more than about two hundred ft lbf of kinetic energy, or about 270 jules of energy.
Now, the ATL round hits the bad guy at 330 J.
Science is your friend, Billi the Axe. (Yeah, I know there are lots of arguments about just what gives a bullet terminal stopping power, but for this thread I'm relying on cold hard facts.)
Forget about U.S. military use. Think about golden era U.S. policemen and citizens equipped with aging S&W Military and Police revolvers, Colt Police Positives, K frame & Colt Detective snubbies during the post-war years and whether they might have considered changing from one round to another if it was judged to be better at getting the job done (but not as difficult to shoot as hot rounds & Magnums.)

 

[Billi the Axe]

But your still talking about a round that wounds rather than a man killer. High velocity/low wieght rounds are fine in full-auto rifles (5.56mm),But pistols are a personal defence weapon used in situations were wounding your opponent is usually fatal to you. Getting the average firearms owner to rely on a round that doesn't do the one thing it needs to do is ASB.

 

[Magniac]

But your still talking about a round that wounds rather than a man killer. High velocity/low wieght rounds are fine in full-auto rifles (5.56mm),But pistols are a personal defence weapon used in situations were wounding your opponent is usually fatal to you. Getting the average firearms owner to rely on a round that doesn't do the one thing it needs to do is ASB.

Ummm, I think you need to learn the history of the .38 Special round, and it's preeminence in American hand-gunnery during the twentieth century.

F'rinstance, ever see any movies or TV series set in the NYPD of the late eighteen-nineties thru the early nineteen nineties?

If what you saw was accurate you'll notice that the cops of earlier eras carried Colt New Police revolvers chambered in .32 S&W Long http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_S&W_Long, thoughtfully issued to them by Theodore Roosevelt.

But for the better part of the last century America's largest police force issued Smith & Wesson J or K frame revolvers with standard pressure .38 Special ammo. Many other Police agencies did the same. And many U.S. civilians followed suit.
(BTW, you're off by about four decades when you write that .38 Special has been around since the 1860s.)

The only challengers .38 Special had to the title of America's most popular revolver round were .45 Long Colt (largely phased out by mid-century) and .357 Magnum--which didn't come into it's own until the 'fifties.
Sure, argue that .32 H&R Magnum (or an equivalent round) is not a man stopper.

But without over-pressure loaded ammo (which didn't really take off until after mid-century) what do you think .38 Special is?

 

[Billi the Axe]

First I actally own a Colt Model 1866 Richards conversion chambered for the 38/40 as well as a Remington model 1875 in the same caliber Manufacturing dates for them were 1867 and 1876 respectively. And yes the NYPD that Teddy Rooseveldt was Commissionerof did carry a 32 cal . however they were about the only ones most Police officers carrying a 44 or 45 caliber revolver or 38 cal compact revolver. 1 group does not make a majority. The 32 has never and will never be in widespread use in the US And yes most PD's did use standard pressure 38 cal handguns for a time.

But your 32 will never give you the same stopping power of a standard 38 round let alone a +P 38 Special no matter how much powder you put behind it. And any increase in surplus British revolvers would be offset by the increase in surplus US 38 Specials , and German 9mm war trophies.

 

[Magniac]

...however they were about the only ones most Police officers carrying a 44 or 45 caliber revolver or 38 cal compact revolver. 1 group does not make a majority. The 32 has never and will never be in widespread use in the US And yes most PD's did use standard pressure 38 cal handguns for a time.

This source http://www.gunblast.com/Cumpston_32Colt.htm declares the .32 Colt Police Positive Special (which complimented the New Police) to be the most produced revolver in that company's line--it was manufactured from just after the turn of the century until the late seventies.

BTW, Roosevelt's round "was quickly adopted by several northeastern police agencies and the cartridge remained a police standard for some time to come."

Also, "Smith and Wesson, Charter Arms, Taurus and others produced substantial numbers of .32 S&W Long/Colt New Police revolvers right up until the development of the .32 Magnum..."

I'd wager that the .32 S&W Long cartridge was more widespread than the .44 Special throughout last century in the States (and I'm not including the earlier short .32 S&W.)

But your 32 will never give you the same stopping power of a standard 38 round let alone a +P 38 Special no matter how much powder you put behind it.

I specifically stated the ATL cartridge was not market competition for over-pressure .38 rounds.

And every source I can find states that standard pressure 158 grain .38 rounds (of the kind produced mid-century) produce less kinetic energy than a .32 Magnum-equivalent round.

You might argue that it's then down to whether the bullet is jacketed, is a hollow point, yadda yadda. But the statistics don't lie. (Interestingly, 100 grain .38 ammo could at least equal the hypothetical round's muzzle energy without going +P, though I don't know how popular this loading was in the timeframe I've mentioned.)

I have no doubt that a snub-nosed revolver chambered in the ATL round circa 1947 would have given .38 snubbies a run for their money; the smaller frame--yet offering the same capacity as a .38 snub--would have been a good selling point. Or perhaps you think revolvers with 2-inch barrels weren't terribly widespread?