WI: Charles d'Orléans lives

Yorel · Feb 15, 2012

Charles II of Valois (1522-1545) was the third son of King Francis I of France. Originally entitled Duke of Berry, he became Duke of Orléans following the sudden death of his older brother Francis (1518-1536) while his other brother became Henri became Dauphin of France (and later King Henri II). By all accounts, he was his father's favorite son and far more popular than his elder brother Henri.

In 1544, Francis I and Charles V signed the Treaty of Crépy which planned the marriage of Charles d'Orléans with a relative of the Emperor:

The first option was Charles V's daughter, Maria of Spain (1528-1603) who was the OTL wife of Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor. If Charles d'Orléans married Maria, she would have received the Netherlands or the Low-Countries of Franche-Comté as her dowry.
The second option was Anna of Austria (1528-1590), niece of Charles V who OTL became the wife of Duke Albert V of Bavaria. If Charles d'Orléans were to marry Anna of Austria, she would have received Milan as her dowry.

The treaty also planned for Francis I to give the Duchies of Angoulême, Chatelleraut, Bourbon and Orléans to the groom. By the end of his life, Charles did have all of these Duchies: however, he uncarefully* caught the plague and died in 1545.

However, what would be the consequences if Charles never contracted the Plague? How would his survival play on French and European politics?

*According to chroniclers, he risked himself inside an infected house claiming that "no son of the King of France ever died from the plague." Well, there is a first time for everything...
Another account of the story stated that he rolled himself in an infected bed on a dare. Seriosuly, that's pushing it...

Velasco · Feb 15, 2012

Is this the same Orleans who was variously betrothed to Mary and Elizabeth Tudor?

Yorel · Feb 17, 2012

Bumping this because of the few responses I got.

Velasco said:
Is this the same Orleans who was variously betrothed to Mary and Elizabeth Tudor?

I checked and I don't think so. The Duke of Orléans you mention was probably the future Henri II of France, who only became Dauphin of France after the death of his older brother Francis III, Duke of Britanny (1518-1536).

Regarding the main thread, it seems that Charles V was intending to marry his niece Anne to Charles II of Orléans rather than his daughter Maria. So, in a scenario where he would live longer, Charles d'Orléans would likely have gotten control of several French Duchies (Angoulême, Chatellereaut, Bourbon & Orléans) as well as the Duchy of Milan. How would that affect French and European politics? And who does Albert V of Bavaria marries in that scenario?

Yorel · Feb 19, 2012

Bumping again.

Seriously, no one interested about the POD I gave?

Talmanes · Feb 19, 2012

Interested, but seriously lacking in 16th century knowledge on my part. How did either Henri or Charles view the Reformation?

Vitruvius · Feb 19, 2012

Well I'm interested as well but it's hard to say what would happen. This did come up once before, but the discussion was rather limited. Supposedly Charles V ultimately selected Anna of Austria, which would haven given him Milan. So I think we can work on that premise.

I don't think that Charles V would divide his realms differently when he abdicates, it just means Spain doesn't get Milan. This does have the effect of breaking the OTL Spanish hegemony in Italy that lasted through the reign of Charles II. It could also hamper Spanish efforts to intervene against the protestants in the Netherlands or Germany (assuming there is still a Dutch Revolt and/or major religious war in the HRE). This could pull Tuscany into a more explicitly pro-French position given Catherine de Medici's marriage to Orleans' brother, Henry II. It also makes Savoy more vulnerable. I believe at this time France holds Saluzzo on the Italian side of the Alps. So Italy could be split into French and Spanish spheres of influence, but this assumes that Milan stays aligned with France which in the long term may not be the case.

Theoretically Charles of Orleans would inherit the French throne in advance of Henry of Navarre but that assumes the mainline of the Bourbons still dies out which isn't guaranteed. So he could found what becomes a separate dynasty in Milan but he would still have strong ties to France given the French appanages he holds. Perhaps to the detriment of the French King (harder to consolidate power with the Orleans and Bourbon lines still controlling large domains within the kingdom).

I would assume that Charles would become more zealously pro-Catholic after ruling in Milan. So he or his successor may found some equivalent to the OTL Catholic League if the religious situation in France develops along the similar lines. I assume with a potentially weaker Valois monarch there will be more factional fighting between Catholics and Protestants only now instead of being lead by the House of Guise the Catholic champion may be the Duke of Orleans & Milan. Ironically Orleans may then work against the French King by undermining his authority and becoming de facto pro-Spanish. Indeed it's been theorized that Charles V intended to split the French interests by setting up the Duke of Orleans as an independent sovereign. But it could go either way. And the reformation in France could subsequently proceed in a myriad number of directions.

Yorel · Feb 20, 2012

Kelian said:
How did either Henri or Charles view the Reformation?

Henri II didn't fight the Reformation in his early reign. However, he later though of it as a threat to his own authority (as Francis I had done following the affaire des placards in the 1530s) and thus tried to get rid of Calvinism. He could have also been influenced to do so by Diane de Poitiers, his mistress, who is said to have taken advantage of her lover's anti-Protestantism to earn richess. It is some sort of Black Legend though, but it could be true.

We have no information on how Charles viewed the Reformation since he died before the Religious Wars showed up OTL. I suppose though that he could have a bad opinion on it because of how his father and brother viewed it. Plus, if he rules in Milan and is married to a Hapsburg, he could turn out as a strong advocate of Roman Catholicism. Of course, he could also show himself as somewhat tolerant if he and his brother keep a bad relationship: Henri was jealous of Charles who was more popular and would have been better married in this scenario. Then again, it is said the two brothers had reconciled shortly before Charles' OTL death.

Vitruvius said:
Theoretically Charles of Orleans would inherit the French throne in advance of Henry of Navarre but that assumes the mainline of the Bourbons still dies out which isn't guaranteed. So he could found what becomes a separate dynasty in Milan but he would still have strong ties to France given the French appanages he holds. Perhaps to the detriment of the French King (harder to consolidate power with the Orleans and Bourbon lines still controlling large domains within the kingdom).

With Charles of Orléans' survival, there is no real need to talk about the Bourbons in the succession, unless Charles fails to sire sons or his bloodline dies in the male line before that of his brother Henri II. Charles of Orléans' descendants (or even Charles himself if he lives long enough although that would be a bit exceptionnal) would be the ones to inherit the French throne and the transition would be smoother than OTL.

What you said about the Duke of Orléans & Milan is true: it would be troublesome for the King of France to have such a powerful prince in France. At the same time, if the Duke of Orléans & Milan inherits the French crown, all of his possessions become part of the Royal Dosmaine which wouldn't be a bad thing, except for Savoy (which would be encircled by possessions of the French King).

The Bourbons could be troublesome though... The main bloodline would remain dead: Charles III of Bourbon died without children in 1527 and the POD is in the 1540s. The Dukes of Vendôme still held quite a number of possession though... And if things go as per OTL, they will hold the crown of Navarra and lead the Protestant party. Things could get ugly by this point, especially if the King of France fights Protestantism.

Vitruvius · Feb 20, 2012

I miss typed, I meant Valois when I said Bourbon the first time. I was just saying that its not ordained that the Valois line would die out. So Charles could found a new line in Orleans.

Yorel said:
The Bourbons could be troublesome though... The main bloodline would remain dead: Charles III of Bourbon died without children in 1527 and the POD is in the 1540s. The Dukes of Vendôme still held quite a number of possession though... And if things go as per OTL, they will hold the crown of Navarra and lead the Protestant party. Things could get ugly by this point, especially if the King of France fights Protestantism.

This is the point I was really trying to make when referencing the Bourbons later on. Because Henry of Navarre has not just Vendôme but also all of the Albret lands in southern France. And like Orleans-Milan he is also sovereign lord of a foreign realm namely Navarre. So between the Bourbons and the Orleans there's a fair amount of outstanding fiefs and appannages that won't fall to the French crown as they did OTL. Combined with some of the comparatively minor players running around, like the Guises, and the French king way have an even hard time of it.

DrakeRlugia · Feb 21, 2012

Remember that Charles V made his offer to turn Charles d'Orléans against his family. Henri, as Dauphin along with his wife protested the treaty as it violated his own rights. Essentially Charles V was dividing the Valois family by uniting this boy into his own fold.

And IIRC, he was the son offered to Elizabeth in 1534 or so, François the Dauphin was still alive. Charles was known as the Duc d'Angoulême and whom Elizabeth was offered too. Mary was offered to the OTL Henri II as well as his elder brother.

Yorel · Feb 21, 2012

DrakeRlugia said:
Remember that Charles V made his offer to turn Charles d'Orléans against his family. Henri, as Dauphin along with his wife protested the treaty as it violated his own rights. Essentially Charles V was dividing the Valois family by uniting this boy into his own fold.

It doesn't necessarily mean Charles of Orléans will be on Charles V's side. It is sometimes said that Charles & Henri were together before Charles' death and that they had reconciled. Henri would have even tried to come at the side of his near dying brother but was kept away becaue of the latter's state...

And even without reconciliation, Charles of Orléans won't necessarily "work" for Charles V. I'm not saying he wouldn't try to increase his position in France: however, Charles of Orléans could also be willing to counter Hapsburg influence in Italy. Plus, remember that Charles of Orléans was the favorite son of Francis I: who's to say he won't have inherited his father's grudges against Charles V?
Sure, he'll marry a Hapsburg. But does that mean it will turn him into a lapdog of Charles V?

DrakeRlugia · Feb 22, 2012

Yorel said:
It doesn't necessarily mean Charles of Orléans will be on Charles V's side. It is sometimes said that Charles & Henri were together before Charles' death and that they had reconciled. Henri would have even tried to come at the side of his near dying brother but was kept away becaue of the latter's state...

And even without reconciliation, Charles of Orléans won't necessarily "work" for Charles V. I'm not saying he wouldn't try to increase his position in France: however, Charles of Orléans could also be willing to counter Hapsburg influence in Italy. Plus, remember that Charles of Orléans was the favorite son of Francis I: who's to say he won't have inherited his father's grudges against Charles V?
Sure, he'll marry a Hapsburg. But does that mean it will turn him into a lapdog of Charles V?

Of course not, but I just don't think Charles V was completely daft. It could blow up in his face, but he was obviously trying to build up another Duke of Bourbon. I just think if endowed in Italy, or in the Netherlands, he's going to view it as his own powerbase. He may be amiable with both France and the Habsburgs. It was essentially an offer to save Valois face, since it wouldn't be giving "France" anything, but at least a Valois would sit upon partially what they claimed as theirs. I think if he lives and takes his bride, it'll create a rupture between him and the Dauphin. It seems impossible to not too.