Besides the Confederacy winning at Antietam and Gettysburg or UK and France intervening on the side of the Confederacy
What Unique/Anti-Cliche Confederate Victory could i use for my ATL?
- Thread starter Jabe Thomas
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- confederate states
I personally haven't seen any timelines look at an alternate Fort Donaldson where Grant dies.
1. Albert Sydney Johnston survives.
2. The Confederates successfully launch their attack at McLemore's Cove, destroying Negley's force.
3. Bragg doesn't send Longstreet's men to Knoxville, and instead keeps them at Missionary Ridge. The Confederates subsequently repulse Grant's attack. Alternatively, the Confederates succeed in cutting off the cracker line.
4. Either Sherman launches a frontal assault against Johnston's forces at Dalton or Allatoona. Johnston's plans for Sherman to attack him at Cassville hold true.
5. Early's troops arrive at Washington a day or two earlier, and sack the city.
6. Grant attacks at North Anna like Lee anticipated.
Don't know if those would necessarily mean Confederate victory either through outright battlefield conditions or a peace candidate winning in 1864, but they're a decent list I think.
2. The Confederates successfully launch their attack at McLemore's Cove, destroying Negley's force.
3. Bragg doesn't send Longstreet's men to Knoxville, and instead keeps them at Missionary Ridge. The Confederates subsequently repulse Grant's attack. Alternatively, the Confederates succeed in cutting off the cracker line.
4. Either Sherman launches a frontal assault against Johnston's forces at Dalton or Allatoona. Johnston's plans for Sherman to attack him at Cassville hold true.
5. Early's troops arrive at Washington a day or two earlier, and sack the city.
6. Grant attacks at North Anna like Lee anticipated.
Don't know if those would necessarily mean Confederate victory either through outright battlefield conditions or a peace candidate winning in 1864, but they're a decent list I think.
Maybe have it break out some time other than the 1860s, or at least with a POD well before then, because that's the only way to get a CSA victory with the conditions you described, unless you want ASB.
A POD before the 1860s would definitely be non-cliche at least.
A POD before the 1860s would definitely be non-cliche at least.
What if Frémont was President in 1860? Would he not have handled the war like Lincoln did?
Maybe Fremont winning in 56 leads to a Civil War where the Confederates attain victory...
I mean even Seward is a possibilty. especially consdiering that William H Seward has been the anti-slavery boogyman since the mid-1840s...
Fearless Leader
Donor
Lincoln is assassinated in 1861 leading to Hamlin running the war (or at least trying to...)
At the 7 days, if the good versions of Lee's generals had shown up, there was a very real chance of a Cannae at Glendale. The problem is Lee's generals had their bad versions show up mostly. Forcing the surrender of the Army of the Potomac could have ended the war in 1862. As it was, Stonewall Jackson put in some of his worst performances, probably because he was totally exhausted. Most of Lee's other subordinates didn't bring their best either.
If I was writing a CSA victory scenario, I'd probably make a POD involving the 7 days.
If I wanted a peace afterwards that lasted, I'd try very hard for plebiscites supervised by the British that went by county, not by state. I'd try to establish the principle that counties, not states, are the most fundamental units of governance and that they have the right to switch states by a moderate supermajority of the county and the consent of the state that they are joining.
Doing that I suspect would stabilize things a lot in the South. Parts of Tennessee and Virginia were pretty Unionist, and parts of border slave states that stayed in the Union would probably elect to leave. Also, if counties had self determination in the South, it'd probably mitigate some of the craziness that the CSA would get up to postwar.
But it would be a really tough sell in 1862-1863. You'd have to have somebody officiating the peace talks that is very respected and really wants peace.
If I was writing a CSA victory scenario, I'd probably make a POD involving the 7 days.
If I wanted a peace afterwards that lasted, I'd try very hard for plebiscites supervised by the British that went by county, not by state. I'd try to establish the principle that counties, not states, are the most fundamental units of governance and that they have the right to switch states by a moderate supermajority of the county and the consent of the state that they are joining.
Doing that I suspect would stabilize things a lot in the South. Parts of Tennessee and Virginia were pretty Unionist, and parts of border slave states that stayed in the Union would probably elect to leave. Also, if counties had self determination in the South, it'd probably mitigate some of the craziness that the CSA would get up to postwar.
But it would be a really tough sell in 1862-1863. You'd have to have somebody officiating the peace talks that is very respected and really wants peace.
Another possibility would have a POD back in the 1850s. Jefferson Davis was actually a pretty good general and Secretary of War. Historically he got the US army expanded by almost 50% and its gear and pay improved. What if instead he'd spent his time observing the foreign conflicts of the time (Crimean War) and had learned from them?
He proposes a serious modernization of the US army, but his proposal is too rich for the blood of Congress, so they turn it down. They'd rather spend the money on the railroads.
But Davis has seen how effective properly trained riflemen are @1850s and he makes an effort to improve the militia and popularize such training in his home state. Perhaps competitive shooting with big teams (like 100 in each team) becomes a popular sport in the Deep South. Scoring would be how many hits your 100 get within 1 minute of fire. They also hire some retired NCOs from the UK.
The net results starting the war would be the US army is smaller, the CSA forces a lot better trained, and Davis is probably put into a less damaging role than President of the CSA---probably a general, which he'd probably be fairly decent at.
He proposes a serious modernization of the US army, but his proposal is too rich for the blood of Congress, so they turn it down. They'd rather spend the money on the railroads.
But Davis has seen how effective properly trained riflemen are @1850s and he makes an effort to improve the militia and popularize such training in his home state. Perhaps competitive shooting with big teams (like 100 in each team) becomes a popular sport in the Deep South. Scoring would be how many hits your 100 get within 1 minute of fire. They also hire some retired NCOs from the UK.
The net results starting the war would be the US army is smaller, the CSA forces a lot better trained, and Davis is probably put into a less damaging role than President of the CSA---probably a general, which he'd probably be fairly decent at.
In Mexico, Bragg's artillery prevented Davis from being overwhelmed at one point. What if Bragg failed and Davis was captured? One, Bragg would not stand as high in Davis' estimation. Two, a PoW experience could make Davis a bit more humble, give him a bit of a common touch. Yeah, it could also butterfly his career, but that also could be a PoD.
Second something in 1861 like Grant dying early, or Nashville having proper defenses or the Union invading Kentucky before Polk did, all would work.
The best thing would be a quality command staff for the Army of Tennessee.
Have the 1850 Senate floor incident between Senators Foote and Benton result in VP Fillmore getting shot and killed when they're trying to wrestle the gun away from Senator Foote. Zachary Taylor still dies, giving the Presidency to the ineffectual William R. King and setting a special election in the fall of 1850.
The idea of Maryland secession isn't crazy as without force being deployed to prevent it, it may have happened in OTL, and a successful Confederate Maryland campaign in which it's more like an actual invasion than a raid could lead to the Army of the Potomac being forced into the Washington Fortifications while Annapolis and Baltimore are taken.
But far more likely - if the Army of the Cumberland is destroyed in detail at Chickamauga, and most of central and eastern Tennessee is taken, you probably extend the war by a significant amount of time and create a precedent of the CSA using it's internal lines to achieve numerical parity when possible. The Union after such an event could cobble together a force from Grant and its Kentucky and Missouri Departments to prevent another invasion of Kentucky, I think, but it would be a very rough period in 1864 in the west, I think.
But far more likely - if the Army of the Cumberland is destroyed in detail at Chickamauga, and most of central and eastern Tennessee is taken, you probably extend the war by a significant amount of time and create a precedent of the CSA using it's internal lines to achieve numerical parity when possible. The Union after such an event could cobble together a force from Grant and its Kentucky and Missouri Departments to prevent another invasion of Kentucky, I think, but it would be a very rough period in 1864 in the west, I think.
If the intention is to have the slave states win (which really that's what a lot of people mean when they say CSA) here's a plot twist: have the northern free states secede, and actually over the reason for states' rights. Have the POD be which a good number of the free states gets absolutely fed up with the overreach of federal power with the Fugitive Slave Act (which basically had the federal government enforcing slave states laws over that of the free states) and the Dred Scott v. Sandford case (which basically meant the slave state's laws have more federal backing than that of the free states). So some of the free states sees no other choice: by staying it means their states' rights in their own affairs would be gradually chipped away under a federal government that's obviously leaning towards the slave states and biased against their [the free states] interests.
So some of the free states do just that, but now since the balance of manpower, industry (maybe), and military talent (Lee would have had far less loyalty issue leading federal armies in this case) is firmly on the side of the federal government the war should be a foregone conclusion...
So some of the free states do just that, but now since the balance of manpower, industry (maybe), and military talent (Lee would have had far less loyalty issue leading federal armies in this case) is firmly on the side of the federal government the war should be a foregone conclusion...
I never claimed to have the answer, just that it would be helpful. Some thoughts:
Cleburne as a Corps Commander. A Johnston who got along with Davis, no Bragg. Hardee over Hood.
I like the idea of Grant invading KY first, pushing KY into the arms of the CSA and then being cashiered in disgrace for that blunder. In that event it would also be a great help if Leonidas had remained in his Bishopric. A wilder POD I like to speculate about is Sherman losing his family while in Frisco and when he comes to LA as military school commandant he falls in love with and marries a plantation owner's daughter and chooses the CSA (they offered him a commission). Then Sherman takes command of the CSA forces on the west bank of the Mississippi and tricks Grant into invading first. Grant is gone and Sherman is leading a CSA move into KY in response to Grant's incursion. Wacky but I like it.
This might be insane but have Lincoln personally command the army of the Potomac ala George Washington/Napoleon/Santa Anna.