Was the Emperor of Japan truly powerless prior to the Meiji Restoration?

It seems to me that the Emperor is often written off as a figurehead once the Kamakura Shogunate is established in 1185, only to regain relevance with the Meiji Restoration.
But it's not as if the imperial court at Kyoto disappeared once the Shoguns came on the scene. As I understand it, they still issued civil edicts and still collected taxes, they just no longer had executive control of the military. At least two Emperors (that I know of)had the initiative to attempt to overthrow the Shogunate. What do you see as some likely political and cultural developments if the Shogunate is destroyed prior to 1600?
 
It seems to me that the Emperor is often written off as a figurehead once the Kamakura Shogunate is established in 1185, only to regain relevance with the Meiji Restoration.
But it's not as if the imperial court at Kyoto disappeared once the Shoguns came on the scene. As I understand it, they still issued civil edicts and still collected taxes, they just no longer had executive control of the military. At least two Emperors (that I know of)had the initiative to attempt to overthrow the Shogunate. What do you see as some likely political and cultural developments if the Shogunate is destroyed prior to 1600?
Simply put the Emperor had the spiritual power over the nation (an equivalent to the Pope basically) but didn't have any control over the administration (military, foreign policy...).
Had the Emperor taken the power its consequences would be unpredictable as it would depend on what the emperor would do which is extremely unpredictable.
 
As @EasternRomanEmpire mentioned, their role was primarily spiritual and cultural during the Shogunate period.

In the Tokugawa period, there was some blending: Tokugawa Masako, daughter of the second Shogun was sent to the Imperial court to marry Emperor Go-Mizunoo, for instance. There would be further intermarriage, too, almost right up until the end; Chikako, the Princess Kazu would wed Tokugawa Iemochi, one of the final Shoguns.

In general, the Shogunates tended to keep the imperial courts on a tight leash. I know that before the Tokugawa Shogunate, the Imperial court was fairly impoverished. Even those that served the court, the kuge nobility were in bad financial situations, because the Sengoku period led them to lose much of their financial basis that had allowed them to be patrons of culture. Despite no longer being at the center, they could pass on their culture as masters in certain fields: waka poetry, and playing the biwa. Many kuge had clients amongst the Daimyo and rich commoners, and could issue them licenses certifying that these students had learned these particular skills and could perform in public. A fee was expected for each license issue, so it became an important financial instrument for the kuge.

It's hard to say how an earlier "restoration" might function. The Kenmu Restoration, for instance, was mainly brought about on the backs of the samurai, before it floundered. The Meiji Restoration / Imperial Revival centered around a union of the court nobility and warrior nobility to restore imperial power in hopes of expelling the barbarians in a world that was rapidly changing: and that the Shogunate couldn't deal with effectively.
 
In the Tokugawa period, there was some blending: Tokugawa Masako, daughter of the second Shogun was sent to the Imperial court to marry Emperor Go-Mizunoo, for instance. There would be further intermarriage, too, almost right up until the end; Chikako, the Princess Kazu would wed Tokugawa Iemochi, one of the final Shoguns.

In general, the Shogunates tended to keep the imperial courts on a tight leash. I know that before the Tokugawa Shogunate, the Imperial court was fairly impoverished. Even those that served the court, the kuge nobility were in bad financial situations, because the Sengoku period led them to lose much of their financial basis that had allowed them to be patrons of culture. Despite no longer being at the center, they could pass on their culture as masters in certain fields: waka poetry, and playing the biwa. Many kuge had clients amongst the Daimyo and rich commoners, and could issue them licenses certifying that these students had learned these particular skills and could perform in public. A fee was expected for each license issue, so it became an important financial instrument for the kuge.

It's hard to say how an earlier "restoration" might function. The Kenmu Restoration, for instance, was mainly brought about on the backs of the samurai, before it floundered. The Meiji Restoration / Imperial Revival centered around a union of the court nobility and warrior nobility to restore imperial power in hopes of expelling the barbarians in a world that was rapidly changing: and that the Shogunate couldn't deal with effectively.
I didn't think I'd see @DrakeRlugia talking Japanese history here.
 
In truth the Emperor was a figurehead long before the first Shogunate was established in 1185 due to the fact that starting over 200 years prior, the Fujiwara clan had privatised most government functions and political power in Japan and what functions still existed were more or less the hereditary purview of a few branches of the Fujiwara clan. Only the fact that the Fujiwara themselves became incredibly divided stopped them from being a serious force. At times the Retired Emperors held serious power since their office let them avoid the Fujiwara clan's institutions, but this didn't always occur and eventually they too lost authority.

As noted, the Kenmu Restoration is one exception, but the lesser known exception is Retired Emperor Go-Toba and his Joukyuu War of 1219-21. This was possible because the bulk of the Shogunate's institutions were set up in Eastern Japan (i.e. not near Kyoto) and the leading clans of the Shogunate had been clashing. The Retired Emperor had a private army of several thousand warriors, plus summoned tens of thousands more to his banner (including warrior monks) and posed a serious challenge to Kamakura's authority. Unlike the Kenmu Restoration which wanted a Chinese-style Imperial court (with residual Shogunate institutions and strong Buddhist temples to account for the reality of the situation), Go-Toba seems to have desired more oversight in the Shogunate since it doesn't seem he had a problem with the institution in of itself.

I will note that it is entirely incorrect to say that the Imperial Court held no power in the early Shogunate. They collected vast revenues from public lands in provinces, to whom they named the officials in charge of governing (although many actual governor titles became nothing but sinecures), they provided the heads of Japan's religious institutions which controlled armies of warrior monks and received vast amounts of donations in land and practical goods. The court controlled the guilds who managed practically everything about the economy due to the fact guilds required powerful legal protectors (and also that court nobles and the Imperial Court itself were major clients of said guilds). Courtiers maintained ownership and control of most all land in Japan, since the land stewards (jito) that the Minamoto appointed were simply overseers. While the latter gradually assumed greater and greater authority over their land, the court still had enough power that they could make favourable arrangements with them or even have them removed via complaints to the Shogunate.

As for how they exercised power, Imperial Regent Kujou Michiie also made an attempt in tandem with the Miura clan of warriors to gain power in the Shogunate by successively naming his relatives to the office of Shogun during the 1240s. This was a period before the Houjou clan really established their grip on the Shogunate, and the arrangement theoretically could keep the leading warrior clans all roughly equal. But the Miura were fearful to go up against the other clans and in the end the Houjou clan mostly destroyed them and their allies in 1247.

I think destroying the Shogunate is a very, very hard challenge since it's simply too useful as a governing body for warriors--both Kujou and Go-Toba recognised this and didn't want to abolish it. The closest thing was the Kenmu Restoration which transferred most functions of the Shogunate to the court's oversight (including bringing in warrior elites like the Nitta and Kusunoki clans ), but they still created two autonomous regional shogunates in the Kanto and Tohoku which maintained most all of Kamakura's offices. The Kenmu Restoration also had a heavy Buddhist component, since Emperor Go-Daigo was quite devout, relied on Buddhist monks as advisors, and correctly recognised that Buddhist institutions could balance the warrior class due to having both their own armies and the fact he placed loyal imperial princes in strategic places in the Buddhist hierarchy.
As @EasternRomanEmpire mentioned, their role was primarily spiritual and cultural during the Shogunate period.
I think that's only fair to say after 1400 or so when the Ashikaga Shogunate's taxation and land policies were in full swing. Those undermined the economic basis of the court and made them wholly dependent on the warrior class. The Ashikaga Shogunate and their elite also loved taking court offices for themselves like the Shogun becoming Grand Chancellor. Further, they governed Kyoto far more directly than the Kamakura Shogunate ever did so the court lost the one place they more or less directly governed (i.e. before the Ashikaga Shogunate the court had their own paramilitary police force which ran its own court that had national jurisdiction over pretty much everyone besides monks and warrior nobles even if in practice it was limited to Kyoto).

Without income, traditional sources of court power like the temples turned away from them. It didn't help that in this era, traditional sects of Buddhism were not as popular as the sects of Buddhism that arose during the Kamakura period like Nichiren, Jodo Shinshu, etc. and were associated with warriors, merchants, or peasants instead of wealthy courtiers.
 
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I personally never liked the "cultural and spiritual" authority framing or comparisons to the Catholic Pope. The Japanese Emperor was figurehead monarch. We have plenty of examples of that, both historically and in the present. I don't understand the need to go for such strange comparisons...

What do you see as some likely political and cultural developments if the Shogunate is destroyed prior to 1600?

When and how do you see this "destruction" of the shogunate taking place? And alt-Kenmu restoration might have succeeded if Go-Daigo had done more to reward the warrior families that had supported and found out a way of integrating them into his rule, but it's most likely that sooner of later influential courtiers would come to dominate administration as in the Heian period. Whatever the case, I think a China-styled centralized absolute monarchy is very much out of the question. After the Ounin war and the desintegration of central authority in the 15th century things become even trickier and the best you can do is probably some kind of "shogunate under another name," with a warrior clan monopolising a court office like Kampaku or Daijo-daijin and ruling in that capacity.

Also, pet peeve of mine, but the Emperor very much remained powerless after the Meiji restoration, which can be best understood as a transfer of power from Tokugawa clan to a Choshu-Statsuma oligarchy.
 
It seems to me that the Emperor is often written off as a figurehead once the Kamakura Shogunate is established in 1185, only to regain relevance with the Meiji Restoration.
But it's not as if the imperial court at Kyoto disappeared once the Shoguns came on the scene. As I understand it, they still issued civil edicts and still collected taxes, they just no longer had executive control of the military. At least two Emperors (that I know of)had the initiative to attempt to overthrow the Shogunate. What do you see as some likely political and cultural developments if the Shogunate is destroyed prior to 1600?
YES, even after meiji, if anything you need to reverse the Heinan decline, when the emperor was a real ruler and not a figurehead for the warlord
 
When and how do you see this "destruction" of the shogunate taking place? And alt-Kenmu restoration might have succeeded if Go-Daigo had done more to reward the warrior families that had supported and found out a way of integrating them into his rule, but it's most likely that sooner of later influential courtiers would come to dominate administration as in the Heian period.
The thing with Go-Daigo is that it wasn't so much he failed to reward the warrior families but more that his base of support among the warrior families were the junior lines of prominent clans who had been shut out of their inheritance by changing practices in the early 14th century. These people didn't necessarily oppose Go-Daigo's rewards to his sons or the Imperial Court, not even when he named his son as shogun (in practice Nitta Yoshisada was defacto commander of the Imperial forces, which may have become a point of contention in the long-run). That's not to say they supported it either, but all besides a few malcontents who were punished under the new system would have found their place within it had the big initial challenger to it Ashikaga Takauji not been so successful in his battles. His rebellion snowballed in success because of the initial victories he won.

The Kenmu Restoration also had numerous court nobles, including even high-ranking men, train in martial arts and go to the provinces to take command of armies. I'm not sure know how much the classes could have fused, but had their been continuing instability (like an alt-Nanboku-cho Wars but with the Ashikaga and OTL Northern Court as the rebels) then it's likely there would have been some overlap. Or you'd have warrior branches of court families like the Tosa Ichijou, who like similar cases originated because the court nobles who owned the land felt it impossible to get anyone to protect their territories from being intruded upon by warrior clans so dispatched one of their own. On the opposite side, you have warrior nobles (including those of low origins like Kusunoki Masashige or Nawa Nagatoshi) serving alongside high-ranking court nobles on the institutions Emperor Go-Daigo set up such as his Claims Court.

Long-term, I suspect Kenmu would have seen serious challenges between the military commander and the princely Shogun, and between the princely Shogun himself and the Emperor which would have led to succession wars and probably a military government using court institutions for power. It's possible that the princely Shogun becomes a figurehead to his nobles under this system, but on the other hand Go-Daigo envisioned the Imperial family as taking active and direct roles in politics hence why many of his sons were trained as military commanders. This may last for several generations given Go-Daigo styled himself after the Han Dynasty's Emperor Guangwu who restored the Han Dynasty to power after Wang Mang's usurpation ("Kenmu" even has the same spelling as Guangwu's era name Jianwu).
 
I personally never liked the "cultural and spiritual" authority framing or comparisons to the Catholic Pope. The Japanese Emperor was figurehead monarch. We have plenty of examples of that, both historically and in the present. I don't understand the need to go for such strange comparisons...
It's the difference in culture, and the fact that the Japanese Imperial family is a much older institution than the usual lineages of figurehead monarchs. It's like if the Merovingians survived to the present day as Kings of the Franks while the Carolingians stayed as their Mayors of the Palace before getting overthrown by other successor dynasties while still keeping the Merovingians as kings.
 
I personally never liked the "cultural and spiritual" authority framing or comparisons to the Catholic Pope. The Japanese Emperor was figurehead monarch. We have plenty of examples of that, both historically and in the present. I don't understand the need to go for such strange comparisons...


Also, pet peeve of mine, but the Emperor very much remained powerless after the Meiji restoration, which can be best understood as a transfer of power from Tokugawa clan to a Choshu-Statsuma oligarchy.
I think the best outcome for minority religions like Christianity is for the Emperor to be the head of the Shinto religion but not of the state and having Shinto not baked into the government, something that either a Tokugawa-less Japan, a victorious Tokugawa, or a different 1945 could do.
 
I think the best outcome for minority religions like Christianity is for the Emperor to be the head of the Shinto religion but not of the state and having Shinto not baked into the government, something that either a Tokugawa-less Japan, a victorious Tokugawa, or a different 1945 could do.
State Shinto wasn't a thing until the Meiji era. While some Shinto shrines and their system of administration certainly were important, I don't think you can really differentiate the Emperor appointing his children to be priests/priestesses at those shrines and the court's administration over them with the fact the Emperor and the court did exactly the same thing with important Buddhist temples.
 
State Shinto wasn't a thing until the Meiji era. While some Shinto shrines and their system of administration certainly were important, I don't think you can really differentiate the Emperor appointing his children to be priests/priestesses at those shrines and the court's administration over them with the fact the Emperor and the court did exactly the same thing with important Buddhist temples.
I agree with that but the Emperor is an important figure in the Shinto faith even if he is not the official head.
 
I agree with that but the Emperor is an important figure in the Shinto faith even if he is not the official head.
The thing is that Shinto and Buddhism weren't really considered separate things, or rather, the non-Abrahamic religious atmosphere of Japan means there was space in the imperial court for monks chanting sutras and expounding doctrines while shaman-priests and shrine maidens did their rituals. Much like there was space in the pre-Christian Roman Forum for Hellenistic philosophers, fortune tellers, and processions for Isis the Queen of Heaven.
 
The thing is that Shinto and Buddhism weren't really considered separate things, or rather, the non-Abrahamic religious atmosphere of Japan means there was space in the imperial court for monks chanting sutras and expounding doctrines while shaman-priests and shrine maidens did their rituals. Much like there was space in the pre-Christian Roman Forum for Hellenistic philosophers, fortune tellers, and processions for Isis the Queen of Heaven.
I agree with that as well that the two are not considered different things.
 
Shinto and the State, 1868–1988, by Helen Hardacre is something I was recommended for the history of the creation of modern Shinto. Apparently, prior to the Meiji, there no such thing as a religious marriage ritual in Japan. In my opinion, they copied idiosyncratically the parts of western religious views they saw as modern and not always for the better -- that's my highly subjective opinion.
 
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I read somewhere (maybe it was here) that an attempt at a return to imperial power was attempted during Empress Go-Sakuramachi's (or Toshiko, if you prefer that name) reign, around the year of 1766. Wonder if that can factor in this debate.
 
Well, if someone has some insight about it, I would welcome it. I don't know much about this period of Japanese history, but if someone can contribute?
 
I read somewhere (maybe it was here) that an attempt at a return to imperial power was attempted during Empress Go-Sakuramachi's (or Toshiko, if you prefer that name) reign, around the year of 1766. Wonder if that can factor in this debate.
That was advocated by Confucians who were ideological predecessors to the movement that culminated in the Meiji Restoration. But the fact they had to advocate that, and on the grounds that it would improve national strength, suggests the conventional view that the court was powerless in that era is true. And indeed, they basically were since they were subsidised by the military class. It wasn't like the time before the late 15th century when they were receiving income from lands they owned.
Well, if someone has some insight about it, I would welcome it. I don't know much about this period of Japanese history, but if someone can contribute?
The answer is honestly "depends when and even where in Japan you're talking about." But what I can 100% say for certain is that there was nothing special about the year 1185 in terms of the emperor losing power.
 
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To chime in, the main problem with any kind of 'Restoration' is the Emperor either to has his own powerbase and reliable supports, or is going to serve as some of figurehead by the hopeful powers that be, because as someone has mentioned the Emperor was powerless AFTER the Meiji 'Restoration' simply because the Meiji was less about restoring power to Emperor and more screwing over the Tokugawa.

But the bigger problem after the fact of any genuine Restoration is what does the government look like and who makes up this government? Japan pretty much doesn't have the tradition of scholar bureaucrats, not that they weren't without serious issues. So what does the Emperor turn to, some hybrid of previous systems, trying to reform the old? Mind you similar to China and Korea, even a 'powerful' Emperor has limits and court politics can be an SOB, even if this is out of scope.
 
To chime in, the main problem with any kind of 'Restoration' is the Emperor either to has his own powerbase and reliable supports, or is going to serve as some of figurehead by the hopeful powers that be, because as someone has mentioned the Emperor was powerless AFTER the Meiji 'Restoration' simply because the Meiji was less about restoring power to Emperor and more screwing over the Tokugawa.
Yes. The court (and thus the Emperor) was very much screwed over by the decline of the shoen, Japan's landholding structure. That was their source of income, resources, and loyalists, and also helped fund the temples, another source of loyalists and economic power. The class of local warriors ended up caring about their own interests and found all the excuses to interfere with tribute.

The failing shoen system is the elephant in the room in any of these discussions. I'm not sure how possible it was to halt and reverse that process. It wasn't even the Kamakura Shogunate that started that process, since the Taira clan military government that proceeded it also arose from local warriors and achieved concessions to them. IIRC they were actually worse since Taira no Kiyomori didn't devise an equivalent to the jito (land steward) under his reforms. While the jito was obviously in constant contest with the shoen owners, it wasn't entirely detrimental to landowner interests since it concentrated local warrior power in one figure who could be sued as needed and thus theoretically punished by the Shogunate's institutions.
But the bigger problem after the fact of any genuine Restoration is what does the government look like and who makes up this government? Japan pretty much doesn't have the tradition of scholar bureaucrats, not that they weren't without serious issues. So what does the Emperor turn to, some hybrid of previous systems, trying to reform the old? Mind you similar to China and Korea, even a 'powerful' Emperor has limits and court politics can be an SOB, even if this is out of scope.
There's actually some pretty interesting parallels between a few institutions the Kenmu Restoration set up and the institutions that the subsequent Ashikaga Shoguns devised, especially as people like Ashikaga Yoshimitsu served as Grand Chancellor and the practice of granting high-ranking court offices to warrior nobles increased. It is also true that Go-Daigo didn't just come up with the idea of restoring power to the Emperor out of the blue since several Emperors/Retired Emperors (IIRC most of them after the mid-13th century) had been reorganising court governance in regards to land owners and contacts with the Shogunate. Some were also very interested in restoring government power over temples and shrines and made steps in that direction. When you also consider that the Shogunate became heavily involved in court politics due to the dispute between two lines of the Imperial family that started in the mid-13th century, I think it's pretty clear just where politics were headed.

It's also interesting to note that Japan did have an imperial exam akin to China and other Sinosphere nations, but it fell into disuse by the 9th century. I doubt it would ever become widespread in Japan, but I can think of ways it might be employed productively by the government. One idea I like is the military version of the Chinese imperial exam (武舉), which was uncommon and unprestigious in China, being introduced in medieval Japan and evolving on a trend toward greater importance.
 
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