USA if Spanish conquer England
- Thread starter ipsydixit
- Start date
I doubt the Spanish crown would want English colonies in North America. IOTL, they didn't set up Catalan, Basque and Galician colonies. Britain didn't set up Scottish, Irish and Welsh colonies either. Certain colonies saw greater concentrations of different groups (Scots in New Zealand, Basques in Colombia etc.) I can see a lot of English settlers making a life in the colonies and we might see certain areas, let's say Chile, becoming largely English (but speaking Castillian).
Depending on the popularity of Spanish rule this scenario would probably stifle Dutch independence. OR, Spanish rule could be a flash in the pan, maybe this is a path to an Anglo-Dutch Union when both nations rebel successfully.
The other powers of Europe won't be comfortable with Spain and the Habsburgs being so powerful, obviously.
If Spain successfully retains England (and or the Netherlands) I doubt they'd automatically take all of the places England/Britain did around the world. This would open the door for France, Portugal, the Netherlands, Denmark, and Sweden to seek dominant roles in the colonization of the OTL Thirteen colonies, India and Oceania.
As with any scenario in which a large European country is conquered by another, it would be difficult to make it last. Not impossible, but any timeline featuring lasting Spanish rule would need to justify it with the right carrots and sticks at the right times.
Were it to last, the effects on religion and language would be pretty interesting. Castillian would almost certainly become a Lingua Franca. Vernacular English may well take on many Spanish words. Existing French/Latin words in English might shift to more Castillian forms. Obviously, this probably leads to resurgent Catholicism in England. However, the confirmed protestants in England would only be more set on rebellion.
However, it's not clear that the Armada intended to annex England. I think it's more likely they'd have put a Catholic on the throne (probably a Habsburg) and forced England to stay out of the Netherlands and the Carribean.
Well, seeing as both fascism and communism still existed after WWII and communism still exists today... no?
Also what is even the relation between fascism/communism and self governing colonies? Both ideaologies are 200~ years younger than the rebellion against law, order and good governance (also excellent warm beverages) that those traitors celebrate to this very day. I for one know which of the three is the true crime against humanity.
Edit: Oh right, I forgot about it but - South America (except Brazil) was all Spanish once, considering all of them rebelled whereas only one of the anglo-sphere colonies did indicates which culture is the better colonial master.
England would likely still remain a Kingdom. It was a fairly centralized and respected one back then. What would need to be considered if how this would effect the Dutch, Swedish, Scottish, and French colonization attempts. Might be colonies with Englishmen are considered preferable than the Protestants getting a foothold in North America. Not sure how much the Spanish actually cared about that though, as they had all the land with precious metals and most of the exploitable local forced labor supply. May be that England and Ireland are given to a second son at some point, though that depends if the Low Countries are partially or completely independent from the Might be they are seen as foot for attaching to England in personal union, but the Habsburgs might believe they could eventually lose the islands or they drift out of their orbit. When Charles split his empire between his son and brother, his brother basically just got the title of Emperor, having already been given Further, and Inner Austria, with his having got Croatia, Hungary, and Bohemia through elections and his wife’s blood. I am not sure whether or not Hasburgs would actually partition their lands again. Come to think of it, anyone know what the Spanish fleet was like? Maybe the Hasburgs see the English as a good way to counteract the Dutch, who once had a large fleet than the Spanish, French, and English combined. Not really relevant to this I suppose, though.
unprincipled peter
Donor
that early and massive POD butterflies the world as we know it. political boundaries and makeup are so different, there's no point even mentioning USA, fascism, or communism.
America defeated fascism the same way it defeated the confederacy.
As to the OP, An Anglo-spanish union would probably be even looser than the Iberian one, meaning existing English colonies will probably remain English.
But it also means a lot more of the Caribbean remains Spanish (Jamaica is a big 'un). England is unlikely to take the Dutch New Netherlands (or the Swedish Mid-atlantic colonies that they incorporated into it) so that will be interesting. And who know what happens with the pilgrims. They were OTT melodramatic even with protestantism in the ascendancy in England. In this seventeenth century, who knows? Maybe a Dutch New England too.
Even when ten thousand Spanish soldiers marched north and barely less than a hundred returned. The information they brought back was valuable.
I will explain what could happen by points.
1. In the event that Spain conquers England during the 'Happy Armada' (Remember the original fucking name.) Spain would face a native resistance that was already facing strong opposition to Catholicism.
2. Spain would implement a Viceroyalty system that, to be understood in a simple way, are like Domains.
3. Spain never prevented populations from X regions from moving to America to see the Basques, Galicians, Extremeños, etc. Cuba was mainly populated by Catalans who profited from the trade there.
I will explain what could happen by points.
1. In the event that Spain conquers England during the 'Happy Armada' (Remember the original fucking name.) Spain would face a native resistance that was already facing strong opposition to Catholicism.
2. Spain would implement a Viceroyalty system that, to be understood in a simple way, are like Domains.
3. Spain never prevented populations from X regions from moving to America to see the Basques, Galicians, Extremeños, etc. Cuba was mainly populated by Catalans who profited from the trade there.
ipsydixit
Banned
yes
without USA fascist Axis would have won the WW2 quote: Tuesday 8:30 p.m.
USA forced Communist bloc USSR to reform and collapse by outproducing them in arms race
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Fascism and communism as they developed in our world will be butterflied with such an early POD. Likely some sort of extreme left and right analogues will exist, though if the Spanish victory leads to a substantially more Catholic or hierarchally authoritarian world they will be quite different than OTL.
You'd see a lot of Protestants flee for the New World I think. Probably wars of religion in the new world, while Spain is being challenged hard in Europe by France.
Calvinism might be strangled in the crib, as Protestantism takes on a more German character, and Commonwealth gets butterflied.
Calvinism might be strangled in the crib, as Protestantism takes on a more German character, and Commonwealth gets butterflied.
Franco would like a word
Meanwhile Communist Cuba still exists
So no, the USA didn’t defeat these two ideologies. Not to mention if the Spanish did conquer England, the butterflies change, well….. everything.
Could they keep *Ireland*? That alone could produce some jumbo-size butterflies.
I dunno, both John Calvin and John Knox both lived and died before 1588. Also there's this little thing called the Dutch Revolt...
If England goes down, odds are the dutch revolt fails I think. Calvinism will happen, but not make it to England
With a POD in 1588, one think is sure there will be no USA, no Fascism, no Communism...
Or something similar or something very different.