The Whale has Wings

Status
Not open for further replies.
And it's worth remembering, very little of the RN's current assets ITTL have to do with having more advanced tech than OTL. It's a matter of their having more carriers in '39 and more carrier craft and the FAA having had the authority to order airplanes of the type they needed and to have had some time to work the bugs out before the war started. And then after that, most of this list of advantages to the RN comes from having had experience, sometimes bitter, with actually fighting the battles that come to them. That guides the sort of equipment they request for upgrades and the changes in doctrine.

As far as I can judge, Astrodragon has been restrained in advancing the actual technology. What's improved is that the orchestrated use of it has been shaken down in practice.

Oh, and that they have airplanes of a type that carrier Navy pilots want, not hand-me-downs from the RAF landplanes or whatever they can scrounge from the Americans.

There have been a few changes in the tech.
The engines used were started one year earlier. They didnt involve wnything new and dramatic, just a requirement and a (relatively small) amount of development cash.

The cannon issue wasnt allowed to just sit for nearly a year (a major AM screweup, the money was just sitting theer for 9 months!), as the FAA, who needed cannons, just asked WHY the money allocated wasnt being used.

Radar is a little advanced. There was a 4 month-ish delay around the start of the war as noone in the AM had actulally seemed to think where the development would move to...the FAA is also trying experimental units (and if you read carefully, they arent always working!). Microwave radar, which depended on a particular pice of researce, hasnt advanced at all.

They've started the new, heavier torpedo earlier; this isnt anything terribly new, there just wasnt any point in OTL as until the more powerful TBR planes came online they werent as much use, Same for the higher-speed dropping, nothing dramaitic involved, just no need.

However I'm still getting constantly accused of wanking, as it seems any intelligent or logical thought by the Navy or the aero industry is forbidden; a terrible WW2 performance for the UK and the FAA in particular seems to be mandated by devine decree....:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Don't you know that the British doing batter in any way, shape or form takes away from the awesomeness that is rightfully the sole property of the USN/Kriegsmarine/IJN/Little Green men from Mars?


That being said, I adore your thread. Methinks I will re-read it, now that I have the White Ensign hanging over the shelf hanging at the wall over my desk.... :D
 
It's not very tidy right now but it shows what I feel like.

ma desk.jpg
 
I'd suggest that you missed some of the most important points (at least in OTL.) Which is easily done because there are so damn many candidates!

- The USN have realized that scouting out the enemy before he finds you is vital in a carrier-vs-carrier battle, hence the building of Scout-Bombers. The Japanese don't get this at all, and relegate finding the enemy to seaplanes launched from carriers - fewer in number and much less capable.

- The IJN is the only one that has the ability to form coordinated striking groups from multiple carriers. They'll overwhelm an opponent with simultaneous torpedo strikes from two directions AND large numbers of dive-bombers covered by a cloud of Zeroes. The US will hope to get all the e.g. TBs lanched from a single deck to the target at the same time as their fighter cover but will often fail to do this.

- But the IJN has woefully inadequate air defense doctrine. It basically comes down to Zero pilots doing whatever they want - radio, if carried, is pretty useless in the Zero. No one thinks to tell them "Whatever you do, don't excited chasing retreating enemy aircraft and leave your carriers without any cover!" So at Midway that's exactly what they do.

So the overall sum of IJN doctrine and hardware is a pretty bizarre thing - "If we find you, we'll land you a hell of wallop - but the odds are that you'll find us first, our fighters will act like Royalist cavalry in the ECW and disappear, our AA sucks, our carriers are firetraps, and our damage control makes our AA look good."

One thing worth pointing out is that the RN practised with multiple carriers from 1930 onwards. It just wasnt possible in OTL as they never had enough carriers together until 44...

In ttl, their main operational unit (resources permitting), is 2 fleet carriers. If available, they would add a light carrier as the ASW/Air decence carrier, allowing the fleets to concentrate on the strike.
The lights also practice in pairs, as they dont carry enough planes for an effective strike against a defended target.

If they had more carriers, they'd probably make a force of two pairs, they wouldnt do one of 4 or 6 like the IJN do, they simply havent practiced and it isnt in their doctrine (something like the big Wilhelmshaven and Taranto raids are 'one-offs' organised as a night raid (allowing more prep time), and are strikes followed by a retreat, they arent realy 3 carrier operations in any real sense.

The RN are also the only force to have radar on their search planes early in the war. Granted, it doesnt always work, but by the end of 41 it should be doing quite well (by then it will be microwave, the RAF doesnt win the H2S battle this time around). That will the the final piece in the night attack puzzle they've been working on for a decade.
 
So someone else will be the first pilot to claim 100 combat kills, probably more fitting that Molders died in combat instead of in a crash caused by bad weather. Obviously this is a consequence of the RAF having cannon armed fighters at this time, are the LW's losses higher as a consequence?

Yes, Molders got away with it in OTL (he crashlanded in France) thanks to the poor damage capability of the 0.303. This time he got a few cannon rounds...

The LW losses are highre (or at least they should be...) . All the sources I've found seem to agree that cannon would have shot down more planes (bombers in particular), and that agrees with the RAF's own testing; however no-one seems to give any indication of HOW much more damaging cannons would be.

So I've just stuck a finger in the air and said 10% more LW losses. If anytone has a more accurate estimate I'd love to hear it...

10% more losses wont make much difference to the LW, the BoB was actually a pretty major defeat anyway (in terms of pilots lost ane the ration of strength of the LW to the RAF).
 
Just thought I'd leave a comment to say that I'm still enjoying this immensely.

I look forward to the Taranto raid. Even with beefed up defences, the fact that there can be many more planes in the raid, and that those planes are much more capable, could leave the RM with some of the largest submarines ever constructed...
 
Finger in the air not required

see Tony Williams detailed studies -

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm

and in particular

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

which basically concludes

if 8x.303" = 160
4x.5" = 202
6x.5" = 360
1x20mm+4x0.5" = 420
2x20mm + 4x.303 = 480
2x20mm+2x.5" = 520
4x20mm=800
4x20mm(late models) = 1000

That makes the ATL Goshawk 1 ~
2 times a hitter as an early model Wildcat
3 times a hitter as an OTL BoB Hurri or Spit

Goshawk 2 is at least 50% better again (with an easy upgrade when the guns and ammo get better)

Of course there is no such things as free lunch-
the weight penalty is quite severe when taking into account guns, ammo and structural needs
I estimate it would double a Hurris 250Kg to nearer 500kg in the Goshawk2


FYI if you could get a 4 x30mm cannon into a Whirlwind/Reaper/Beau then it might rate in excess of 2000
(as the Nazis did in OTL Me262)
 
Last edited:
Yes, Molders got away with it in OTL (he crashlanded in France) thanks to the poor damage capability of the 0.303. This time he got a few cannon rounds...

The LW losses are highre (or at least they should be...) . All the sources I've found seem to agree that cannon would have shot down more planes (bombers in particular), and that agrees with the RAF's own testing; however no-one seems to give any indication of HOW much more damaging cannons would be.

So I've just stuck a finger in the air and said 10% more LW losses. If anytone has a more accurate estimate I'd love to hear it...

10% more losses wont make much difference to the LW, the BoB was actually a pretty major defeat anyway (in terms of pilots lost ane the ration of strength of the LW to the RAF).

I think overall numbers of LW planes hit shouldn't change but that the LW planes that get hit die more often. Basically less LW planes surviving to fight another day.

Totally made up numbers follow, to better illustrate...

OTL:
100 LW planes
-20 LW planes killed
-5 can't make it back
-30 can be repaired with effort
-10 are written off after landing

ATL
100 LW planes
-35 killed
-7 can't make it back
-25 can be repaired with effort
-20 are written off

The more planes to repair come from planes which OTL had only cosmetic damage but with the cannon the damage was more serious.

British losses will also go down, both for earlier killed planes which to matter sooner and more cautious LW pilots - if they take too much time for kill a brit might get them so they shift to quicker attacks and generally try to stay moving so that some brit can't line them up.
 
only on page 14 [of 34]

The Australian light carrier HMAS Melbourne had been working up in the West indies in the autumn of 1939. She then sailed for Australia, arriving in Sydney on the 20th December to an impressive reception. Minor defects would be fixed in Australia over the next month. The Australian production line for the Goshawk had been delayed to allow it to start off with the Mk II (although as yet the variable-pitch props and a few other items still had to be shipped out from the UK), but it was expected to get the first planes off the production line in March 1940. Originally plans had only allowed for a small production (around 5 planes per month, just barely enough for Australia), but as war became more certain, this had been increased until the new production line would be producing 15 planes a month, with the option to increase this to 20. There was also the possibility of selling some production to the Dutch, who has evaluated the Mk I with intense interest, especially since the plane and (hopefully by the end of the year) all its parts would be made in Australia, close to the DEI which was where they intended to use them.

The RAN cruisers and destroyers were already being used in coordination with the Royal Navy, particularly in the Med, but two carrier escort destroyers were building in Australia, and would be ready to join the carrier by the end of 1940. In the meantime, the RAN concentrated on how to use the carrier in the peculiar conditions of the Pacific, and also in learning how to conduct larger operations with the RN carrier assigned to the Far East (in January 1940 this was HMS Eagle). This was considered especially important for two reasons; Melbourne was the first Australian ship to be equipped with radar, and in the event of anything happening with Japan, the two carriers would be in the forefront of any actions against the IJN. While the Australian government had paid for the ship, its arrival was seen as a large and visible sign that Britain had not forgotten about Australia (and to be honest, the RN could at present spare a light carrier rather more than the cruisers and destroyers it was controlling in exchange)

Been thinking about this all day.
While the Australian CVL's, and Goshawks will cause many Butterflies,, [?no Australian built Mustangs?], I think the AA heavy Escort Frigates, will be the game changer.
Force Z off the coast of Malaysia with proper AA support.
 
With the cannon, its not just a question of relative damage done, its what proportion of the planes that would have got home take enough damage more they crash or end up in the channel.

Also, if casualties per day are heavier, the LW will probably just give up sooner thus limiting the number of extra planes lost.

So I think I'll stick with 10% as an easy number. There will also be less damage to the UK, of course, and a few less fighters lost.
 
For some time the British and US government representatives have been negotiating for some sort of deal over the exchange of the base rights for the USA that have been ongoing for some years for military supplies. Prime Minister Churchill has been suggesting that some old US destroyers could be part of a deal, but this has attracted significant resistance from the navy who view them as old, obsolete and worn out. They would far prefer modern ships in exchange for the base rights.


At the beginning of July, a secret mission was undertaken by Cdr Wright, a Canadian engineering officer in the RN, and two civilian engineers. Masquerading as a USN officer (with the aid and connivance of the USA, in order not to reveal anything to the powerful isolationist lobby in the US), he spent 2 weeks examining a number of the destroyers held in reserve. His report was not promising.


Basically the destroyers were in poor condition, especially their machinery which was suffering from severe defects. His estimate was that it would take 4-8 months of dockyard work to put them into a condition suitable for deployment in a North Atlantic winter. As a result, the Admiralty made some suggestions, and these and the engineering report were discussed with Churchill.


On the 16th August the famous 'escorts for bases' deal between the USA and the UK was announced. This would exchange base rights for the USA in a number of strategic areas (which would significantly aid the USA's security) in exchange for 30 Corvettes and 30 of the new 'frigates' (currently in their final design stage), which would be built in US yards. The corvettes would take around 7-8 months to build, the frigates would commence in October (when the design would be complete and plans supplied to the US shipbuilders), and take an estimated 10 months to build.


Knowing he had to push this past the isolationist lobby, President Roosevelt announced thsi both as a measure to enhance US security in the face of a dangerous world situation (a phrasing that made it more difficult for the isolationists to object to), and that these ships would be used to defend the lives of the civilian victims of the U-boats.


While there would be a delay before the ships would be available, they would come into service not very long after the old destroyers would have done, and the Admiralty considered them much more useful as A/S escorts. While damage to destroyers had been heavy during the Dunkirk evacuation and also in the BoB so far, the number of ships sunk was far smaller, and the yards expected to have all but a few ships ready for action within a few months.


In the Mediterranean, the fleet bombards Italian positions at Bardia and Fort Capuzzo The ships had air cover provided from HMS Implacable, in addition to RAF Gladiators. 10 RA planes were shot down, three by the fleet air arm, and as a result of the disruption to the attackers no successful attacks were made on the fleet.


With the Empire's recent gains in Libya, the Royal Navy begins laying plans to send several of HMS Courageous's Swordfish aircraft to the Bardia area to operate against Italian supply lanes in the Gulf of Bomba.


On the 21st, the FAA demonstrates that it can hurt the Italian navy even when its carriers are not in the area. Having been informed of an Italian "depot ship" at An-el-Gazala, three Swordfish of HMS Courageous's 824 Squadron, FAA, temporarily based at Ma'aten Bagush, are transferred to Sidi Barrani, equipped with auxiliary fuel tanks and torpedoes. In the late-afternoon, the three headed out on the 180 mile flight to the Gulf of Bomba, routing 30 miles out to sea so as to approach the target from seaward.


Approaching the target, they sighted the Italian Submarine Iride (the mother ship for Italian human torpedoes arriving to attack Alexandria) approaching on the surface. Heading straight for her, the flight leader Captain Patch RM released his torpedo, which struck Iride amidships, sinking her.


Having had no opportunity to attack themselves, the other two continued on the mission assigned. As they approached, they discovered the depot ship Monte Gargano with a submarine and a destroyer tied up alongside. Both torpedoes ran true into the ships, the resulting explosions "sinking whole bloody lot". Initially treated with a certain amount of scepticism when they reported sinking four ships with three torpedoes, the crews were quite exuberant when recon photos the next morning verified that all three in harbour had, in fact, sank, though apparently the destroyer and the submarine were only beached.
 

Hyperion

Banned
Come 1941, a possible Taranto raid, and Cape Matapan, not counting other battle or engagements, Italy isn't going to have much in the way of a Navy.
 
Guys

While the cannon has a lot more oomph how is it for endurance? No expert but I think one problem with them is the relatively small number of shells the a/c can carry. Hence while those German planes hit will take a lot more damage, especially the bombers could it be that the poorer pilots, and there were a lot of people being rushed into service, are likely to run out of ammo before they hit anything?

On the plus side however a couple of other bonuses.
a) Presumably there will be more crew casualties for the Luftwaffe as armour is less likely to stop cannon shells or shrapnel from them than .303 bullet?

b) What's going to happen when cannon shells hit loaded bombers? If a few start going boom apart from anything else it might make a number of German pilots want to drop bombs and head home if they run into problems.;)

Steve
 
For some time the British and US government representatives have been negotiating for some sort of deal over the exchange of the base rights for the USA that have been ongoing for some years for military supplies. Prime Minister Churchill has been suggesting that some old US destroyers could be part of a deal, but this has attracted significant resistance from the navy who view them as old, obsolete and worn out. They would far prefer modern ships in exchange for the base rights.


At the beginning of July, a secret mission was undertaken by Cdr Wright, a Canadian engineering officer in the RN, and two civilian engineers. Masquerading as a USN officer (with the aid and connivance of the USA, in order not to reveal anything to the powerful isolationist lobby in the US), he spent 2 weeks examining a number of the destroyers held in reserve. His report was not promising.


Basically the destroyers were in poor condition, especially their machinery which was suffering from severe defects. His estimate was that it would take 4-8 months of dockyard work to put them into a condition suitable for deployment in a North Atlantic winter. As a result, the Admiralty made some suggestions, and these and the engineering report were discussed with Churchill.


On the 16th August the famous 'escorts for bases' deal between the USA and the UK was announced. This would exchange base rights for the USA in a number of strategic areas (which would significantly aid the USA's security) in exchange for 30 Corvettes and 30 of the new 'frigates' (currently in their final design stage), which would be built in US yards. The corvettes would take around 7-8 months to build, the frigates would commence in October (when the design would be complete and plans supplied to the US shipbuilders), and take an estimated 10 months to build.


Knowing he had to push this past the isolationist lobby, President Roosevelt announced thsi both as a measure to enhance US security in the face of a dangerous world situation (a phrasing that made it more difficult for the isolationists to object to), and that these ships would be used to defend the lives of the civilian victims of the U-boats.


While there would be a delay before the ships would be available, they would come into service not very long after the old destroyers would have done, and the Admiralty considered them much more useful as A/S escorts. While damage to destroyers had been heavy during the Dunkirk evacuation and also in the BoB so far, the number of ships sunk was far smaller, and the yards expected to have all but a few ships ready for action within a few months.

This could be a good improvement. OTL Churchill was very insistent, if I remember correctly, that at least some of the bases be given for free. However hopefully persuaded him otherwise. One other bonus from this, presuming all the ships get completed and handed over before Dec 41, is that the US will have got useful experience at building modern DEs, which will help them come out the blocks even faster when their fully in the war. Down side is if any ships haven't been handed when Pearl happens, presuming its still occurring TTL, is that the RN might have problems extracting them from the USN.


In the Mediterranean, the fleet bombards Italian positions at Bardia and Fort Capuzzo The ships had air cover provided from HMS Implacable, in addition to RAF Gladiators. 10 RA planes were shot down, three by the fleet air arm, and as a result of the disruption to the attackers no successful attacks were made on the fleet.


With the Empire's recent gains in Libya, the Royal Navy begins laying plans to send several of HMS Courageous's Swordfish aircraft to the Bardia area to operate against Italian supply lanes in the Gulf of Bomba.


On the 21st, the FAA demonstrates that it can hurt the Italian navy even when its carriers are not in the area. Having been informed of an Italian "depot ship" at An-el-Gazala, three Swordfish of HMS Courageous's 824 Squadron, FAA, temporarily based at Ma'aten Bagush, are transferred to Sidi Barrani, equipped with auxiliary fuel tanks and torpedoes. In the late-afternoon, the three headed out on the 180 mile flight to the Gulf of Bomba, routing 30 miles out to sea so as to approach the target from seaward.


Approaching the target, they sighted the Italian Submarine (the mother ship for Italian human torpedoes arriving to attack Alexandria) approaching on the surface. Heading straight for her, the flight leader Captain Patch RM released his torpedo, which struck Iride amidships, sinking her.


Having had no opportunity to attack themselves, the other two continued on the mission assigned. As they approached, they discovered the depot ship Monte Gargano with a submarine and a destroyer tied up alongside. Both torpedoes ran true into the ships, the resulting explosions "sinking whole bloody lot". Initially treated with a certain amount of scepticism when they reported sinking four ships with three torpedoes, the crews were quite exuberant when recon photos the next morning verified that all three in harbour had, in fact, sank, though apparently the destroyer and the submarine were only beached.

I think 4 with 3 is rather greedy.:D:p

Does the Iride attack mean that the latter attack on Alexandria, in Dec 41 is going to be butterflied? Other things being the same that would mean the two best QE upgrades aren't sitting at the bottom of the harbour when the Pacific goes down the tube.

Not sure about any attacks prior to that by the Italian mini-subs? Might have been something at Gibraltar I think I read once?

Steve
 

amphibulous

Banned
Yes, Molders got away with it in OTL (he crashlanded in France) thanks to the poor damage capability of the 0.303. This time he got a few cannon rounds...

The LW losses are highre (or at least they should be...) . All the sources I've found seem to agree that cannon would have shot down more planes (bombers in particular)

Actually 20mm would have increased the losses of advanced fighters more than bombers (or older fighters.) Monocoque structures don't like things exploding inside them...
 

Hyperion

Banned
Does the Iride attack mean that the latter attack on Alexandria, in Dec 41 is going to be butterflied? Other things being the same that would mean the two best QE upgrades aren't sitting at the bottom of the harbour when the Pacific goes down the tube.

Having two or even one extra battleship isn't going to do a lot off the bat.

That being said, depending on the situation in the Meditteranean and Britain, it could allow the British to establish a more powerful fleet in being in the Indian Ocean.

Not something that could stand up to Nagumo in a straight fight, but something the Japanese would have to keep a better eye on this time around.

What would really help is if they can have a third fleet carrier in the region come March/April 1942.
 
Not an ideal solution but the correct one, the French were given the option to take the same course of action as at M-el-K, they didn't so the RN did the minimum necessary. The Richelieu is out of the war with the minimum of casualties.
?So what happens to the french AC Joffee. Captured on the building slip?


The first need is for some means of conducting reliable reconnaissance so far east. Currently the RAF is trying to use the Blenheim bomber as a long range recon plane, a task for which it is not suited, delivers poor results and causes high loss rates. The FAA has therefore been talking to some of the aeroplane companies to see if there are any other alternatives. There is indeed one. The Westland company has been manufacturing for some time the Mk2 version of its Whirlwind twin engined fighter. The Mk1 used the R-R Peregrine engine, but some time ago it was clear that this engine would have a low priority, and as a result they modified the plane (making it somewhat larger) to take two R-R Merlin engines and more fuel (the original smaller design wasn't a long ranged plane, the new one carried more fuel). This had flown in the spring of 1939, and a contract had been placed for a limited number of them, The first ones were ready, and it had been expected to form a squadron later this year.


After listening to the RN requirements, the company had suggested modifying (on an urgent basis) some of the first batch as a reconnaissance plane. A large drop tank would extend the range, and taking out the guns and cleaning up the plane would increase its speed. The original design had achieved around 380mph with the Merlin XII, and one of the trial aircraft had managed over 400mph with the new Merlin XX. They promised at least 425mph with a reconnaissance version. This would enable it to basically fly away from any current Luftwaffe fighter, thus making successful reconnaissance flights over defended targets practical. Only a small number of the aircraft were currently available, but only a few were required for reconnaissance.

Please make it twin tail. :rolleyes: Then like Sweden's they can be retro fitted with jets at the end of the war.
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top