The Tudor Rose of England

Tudorfan

Tudorfan

Now, I love the Tudor period - I mean, hello, who doesn't? (apart from those who died there, I mean!:p) It was full of sex, lies, scandal, murder, treason, lies, death, sex, lies and more death!

Now, I have - very recently - started working on a timeline for what would happen (or, at least, what I think - as there are some major changes - would happen) if Anne Boleyn had given Henry VIII a son in 1533 instead of Elizabeth.

This is what I have so far; this part is not very detailed as we know what happened in Henry VIII's reign, though there are a few changes made.

Prologue
1533 - 1547

In the early hours of the morning of 7th September 1533, Anne enters labour. For the times, in which childbirth could be very dangerous, the birth is easy (though long), with Anne giving birth to a son - whom they name Henry - at 8 o'clock in the evening. Henry is thrilled - unlike Catherine, Anne has given him a living son and has done everything she promised.

Ambassador Chapuys informs Emperor Charles V - Catherine's nephew and Mary's cousin and former betrothed - that Prince Henry is "so fat..." and "unlikely to live". Unfortunately for France and Spain, Prince Henry does live.

Having been shunned by Mary before, Anne cracks down on her step-daughter; reconciliation obviously isn't working and Mary will never become Protestant or acknowledge Anne, so there is one obvious answer left: imprisonment for Lady Mary until such time as she acknowledges Anne as Queen.

Lady Mary is thrown in the tower a week after Prince Henry is born 1533 and remains there for the foreseeable future; Henry's niece, Lady Frances Grey nee Brandon - sympathetic to her cousin's plight, though not stupid enough to say anything and risk her own life[1] - holds Prince Henry at the baptism. Prince Henry had four godparents: his paternal uncle, Charles Brandon, Duke of Norfolk; his mother's uncle, Thomas Howard, 3rd Earl of Norfolk; his maternal grandmother, Lady Elizabeth Boleyn and Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset, his father's maternal half-cousin's wife.

While Henry lords it over in England and Mary languishes in the tower, Sir Thomas More and Bishop Fisher protest to her imprisonment; now empowered by the birth of a son, Henry has no trial given for the two men who also imprisoned in the tower for 'committing high treason'.

The Pope realises that Henry is not going to come back to the Sea of Rome now and excommunicates him. Henry cares little for this and is, in fact, being pushed for an alliance by Francis I of France.

Francis wishes for an alliance between the Dauphin, his son and heir, and Lady Mary. Henry, however, does not want this; to Catholics, Mary is the legitimate heiress, so handing her over to France is a very bad idea.

In response to Francis's wishes for an alliance with her, Mary is moved from the royal rooms in the tower to one of the worst rooms possible - Henry's actions reveal his intentions to France; there will be no alliance involving Mary.

In March 1535, having conceived in January, Anne announces that she is pregnant again and Lady Mary is offered one last chance to leave the tower, by accepting Anne as Queen and herself as a bastard; she refuses and loses any chance of exiting the tower - at least while her father is alive - again.

Henry and Cromwell start tearing down Religious houses and monasteries.

Thomas More and Bishop Fisher are both swiftly executed in June 1535, making the Pope realise that he definitely has no authority in England anymore.

On the birth of Princess Elizabeth, named after Henry's mother[2], on 6th October 1535, an alliance between England and France is reached; Francis's youngest son, Charles - currently 13 - and the newly born Princess Elizabeth. To Anne, an ardent Francophile, this was a major victory.

The birth of a daughter, a legitimate heiress of Henry, is not taken well by Catherine or Mary; Catherine's health fails and Mary nearly goes crazy.

Catherine dies, her health having never recovered from the announcement of Princess Elizabeth's birth, in January 1536 and her will decrees that everything is to be passed to Mary. Henry does not carry this request out, instead sending her things back to Spain with a message to the Emperor to keep his Aunt's things away from England. Mary is informed of her mother's death.

Henry and Anne both dress in yellow after Catherine's death[3], and Prince Henry and Princess Elizabeth are brought to court.

On 24th January 1536, Henry is badly crushed in a jousting accident, being knocked unconscious for two hours; although he recovered, the incident, which ended his jousting career, aggravated serious leg problems which plague him for the rest of his life and drastically affect Henry's personality.

With the change in his personality, when the Pilgrimage of Grace breaks out in March 1536[4] - most of them are rebelling due to the way Henry and Anne reacted to Catherine's death, how Mary has been treated and the dissolution of the monasteries and religious houses - Henry cracks down hard on the rebels, having all of them executed at the hands of his army leaders, who meet the rebels in combat; to Henry it is "his will or death" and the rebels face just that.

The rest of the rebels over the country drop their weapons and flee home, but it is too late; they too are pulled from their homes and executed, making England truly no longer under the rule of Rome anymore. The treasonous actions of the rebels allows Henry to seize their property and refill the emptying English treasury.

Francis's wish for Mary to be married to his eldest son comes to no fruition when his son and heir, the Dauphin of France, dies in August.

Henry and Anne had been drifting apart a little during the ending of the Pilgrimage of Grace, with Henry taking Jane Seymour as a mistress. By Christmas 1536, however, they were reunited.

Anne conceives again in June 1537, at which point it was evident that Henry's weight was beginning to drastically increase. Henry was not the only one; now fifty two, Charles Brandon - who had married his eighteen year old ward - was described by the Spanish Ambassador, Eustace Chapuys[5], as being: "In personal qualities, indeed, he was not unlike his sovereign; tall, sturdy, and valiant, with rather a tendency to corpulence, and also with a strong animal nature, not very much restrained at any time by considerations of morality, delicacy, or gratitude." - In simple terms, the Duke of Suffolk was getting fat.

Henry's niece, Lady Frances Grey nee Brandon, gives birth to her first living child, Jane.

Anne gives birth to a son - Edward; Henry's third child by her - on 27th March 1538.

Anne's mother, Lady Elizabeth Boleyn, Duchess of Wiltshire and Ormond, dies in April.

Henry's attention - now often changeable and angry and prone to fits of irrationality - moved to the Pole family in the later months of 1538 and the Poles were invited to court for that Christmas, where the whole family - excluding Reginald who had gone abroad - was thrown in the tower.

The Poles faced execution - barring Lady Salisbury, who Anne managed to get a pardon for due to her wanting Lady Salisbury as Edward's governess - and were all found guilty in a mock trial of 'conspiring to kill the King and steal the throne'.

The Poles were finally executed in January 1539 and Henry's attention turned to his daughter; Mary had been locked in the tower for over five years and had to finally be dealt with. Henry's solution horrified Anne.

While Anne wanted Mary dead, she wanted it to be done gently - through poisoning or a bad fall - and not through execution like Henry was suggesting.

Mary wrote desperately to her cousin, Charles, but he, along with Francis of France had realised that Prince Henry was most likely going to become King on Henry's death and that there was no point in helping Mary and meddling in England's affairs, especially with both Charles and Francis juggling for an alliance with England.

Thus, in February 1539, Mary was executed on tower hill; she was beheaded by a drunk executioner - many people said that Henry had paid for the wine that had gotten the executioner drunk - after 40 strikes of the axe and buried in an arrow box with her head in her lap. The arrow box was buried near Catherine's body in a simple, unmarked grave. To Henry, giving Mary something to be buried in was more than enough.

Anne's father, Thomas Boleyn, who had been made Duke of Wiltshire and Ormond on the birth of Prince Henry in 1553, dies on 12th March 1539; his son, George, Anne's younger brother, succeeds him to his titles and petitions for a divorce from Jane Parker - to whom he has been married since 1525 - on the grounds that the two do not get along.

With his divorce granted, George snatches up Jane Seymour - per Anne's suggestion to keep her away from Henry - as his wife. Conceiving near enough on her wedding night, Jane gives George four daughters - Mary, Anne, Elizabeth and Jane - in quick succession between late 1539 and the middle of 1542; the last birth, due to the child being positioned incorrectly, rendered Jane infertile, meaning that she could never give her a son. George, who had fallen in love with Jane, despite only marrying her at his sister's suggestion, consoles her and makes plans for his nephew, Henry Carey - the eldest son of his sister Mary and her husband William - to succeed him to the title. King Henry, with Anne's suggestion, re-grants George the titles, allowing his nephew to succeed him.

Inactivity and binge eating continued to increase Henry's weight and, impotent on occasions, Henry conceived his last child with Anne in September 1539.

Anne, after a long and difficult labour in which she came close to dying, gave birth to Princess Margaret - her fourth and last child with Henry - on 18th June 1540.

In July 1540, Anne's cousin, Catherine Howard, arrived at Court and promptly eloped with Thomas Culpeper. Banished to Lambeth with Culpeper, Catherine's image was removed from the Howard family gallery and Anne never allowed her to return to court again. Around the same time, Henry's niece, Lady Frances Grey, gave birth to her next child; another daughter, named Catherine[6].

Frances's sister, Lady Eleanor Clifford, nee Brandon, gave birth to her only living child - Margaret, who would later marry the Earl of Derby - in 1540.

Henry declared war on France in early June 1544 and between June and late September, fought in France, leaving his children in Anne's care and her as regent.

When Henry returned in early 1545, he was fatter than ever - due to spending his whole time in Boulogne eating and leaving the fighting to his men - and the machinery that allowed him to move around had to be replaced. As well as this, Princess Elizabeth's betrothal was over - for Francis's son, Charles, died after Henry's return to England.

In 1545 Frances Grey gave birth to twins; two hunchbacked children, Mary and Thomas. Charles Brandon's corpulence - which had been growing steadily along with the King's - finally caught up to him; five years older and fatter than the King, he suffered several heart attacks and died at Guilford Hall[7]. Henry paid for his funeral himself. Charles Brandon's son from his fourth marriage, Henry, became Duke of Suffolk.

Later the same year, on 7th December 1545, Henry's other niece, Lady Margaret Douglas - who had married Matthew Stewart, Earl of Lennox in 1544 - had a son, Henry.

Henry's health deteriorated drastically and he died in January 1547, leaving his thirteen year old son as King.

--
[1] - Frances is of royal blood; saying something about Mary's treatment could make her a Catholic rallying point.

[2] - Though popular legend says she was named after Anne's mother, Henry's mother was more likely to be her namesake as she was a royal baby.

[3] - This was clever on Henry's part; in England, yellow is the colour of celebration, but in Spain it is the colour of mourning; it made Henry appear neutral to foreign parties.

[4] - I made the Pilgrimage of Grace take place earlier as I needed Mary out of the way and she is the rallying point; thus, the Pilgrimage had to happen earlier for her to face the block.

[5] Though Charles Brandon was described as such, it was not the Spanish Ambassador who described him that way; I merely made it so in this timeline since the actual describer is unknown.

[6] - Though Frances always protested - in OTL - that Catherine Grey was named for her step-mother, Catherine Willoughby, it was more likely that she was named for Catherine of Aragon.

[7] - What Charles Brandon actually died of is unknown, he died of "undisclosed illnesses" in 1545 - as he is described as Corpulent, I have gone with him suffering several heart attacks; records - including Allison Weir, Philippa Gregory, Douglas Richardson and John Burke - state that, on his return from Boulogne, Charles weighed 30 stone.
 
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Tudorfan

Tudorfan

Here's the next lot.

The Early Years of Henry IX
1547 - 1570

In the early months of his reign, thirteen year old King Henry IX’s betrothal to Mary, Queen of Scots, was cancelled and the war in Scotland - started by his father to force Queen Mary to marry him - was ended. Henry was betrothed, by his mother - who acted as regent - and the Privy Council, to the twelve year old Infanta Joanna of Spain, with the marriage to take place in 1550. The betrothal, decided on by Henry himself, was to ease relations with Spain and the Holy Roman Empire.

In September 1547, Eleanor Clifford nee Brandon died, leaving her daughter, Margaret, to take her place in the succession.

Henry IX was crowned in October and several members of his council – John Dudley and Richard Rich – were given titles, as per Henry VIII’s will.

As King, Henry began to grow into the King he would be in the later run of his reign: fat, awkward, and painfully shy.

One of Henry's first acts as King, when he was not eating or reading, was to finalise betrothals for his siblings; the first of these, his sister, Margaret, to Archduke Charles of Austria, was finalised in 1548 and, as the two were the same age, the marriage was to take place in 1556.

In 1549, his sister, Elizabeth, was betrothed to the second son of Gustav I of Sweden, Duke John of Finland. The marriage date was set for 1552.

On September 7th 1549, King Henry took control of the Kingdom himself, having turned 16. No longer needed to run the country, Queen Anne retired to Hever Castle.

In January 1550, sixteen year old Henry and the fourteen year old Joanna of Spain were married. At dinner before taking his bride to bed, King Henry was warned: "Don't overcharge your stomach tonight" to which he coolly replied: "Why, I always sleep best after a hearty supper,". On their wedding night, nothing happened and the marriage remained unconsummated. Both Joanna and Henry were alike; shy, painfully awkward and young.

Shortly after this, Edward, Duke of York, was betrothed to Princess Cecilia of Denmark, who was two years his junior; the marriage was finalised for 1557, when Princess Cecilia would be 17 – in return for agreeing to the marriage, Henry made Edward his chief treasurer and in charge of England’s finances. To Edward - who was strongly built, not over-indulgent and a scholar, with a sense of humour hidden behind determination and a push to do his job well - this was a well received present and the twelve year old Prince threw himself head first into his work.

In July 1551, the sweating sickness spread through England; Thomas Grey, heir to the Marquisate of Dorset died on 12th July, as did many others including George Boleyn, his wife Jane and all four of their daughters. His two uncles, Henry and Charles Brandon, just manage to survive the sickness, though Charles is very weak.

Due to George Boleyn’s death, his nephew – King Henry IX’s cousin, Henry Carey – became Duke of Wiltshire and Ormond at the age of twenty four.

Shortly after the sickness abated John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland and Henry Grey, Marquess of Dorset, met to discuss betrothing their children. After a few days of discussion they came to the agreement that Northumberland’s youngest son, Guilford, and Henry’s eldest daughter, Jane, would be married in 1553.

Elizabeth was sent to Finland to be married to Duke John; she was 17 and he was 15. The marriage was consummated on their wedding day of September 18th 1552. Elizabeth gave birth to her first child – a daughter, Isabella – ten months later on July 20th 1553.

On 25th May 1553, Jane Grey and Guilford Dudley are married.

In August 1553, Catherine Grey, thirteen years old and wanting to avoid a loveless marriage like her sister, starts growing close to the fifteen year old heir of the Earl of Pembroke, Henry Herbert. The two have sex and Catherine falls pregnant, informing Henry of when she is two months pregnant in October 1553. Henry goes to King Henry IX and asks for permission to marry Catherine – Henry IX grants permission.
Henry and Frances Grey were furious as their plan to betroth Catherine to Thomas Howard, son and heir of Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey, had to be abandoned.

On January 2nd, 1554, Prince John of Portugal died; unmarried, he was the last living child of John III of Portugal.

In May 1554, Catherine gives birth to a son, named Henry after both her husband and the King.

In October 1554, Elizabeth gives birth to a son, Sigismund, Prince of Sweden.

In June 1555, the twenty year old Henry Brandon, Duke of Suffolk, married the fifteen year old heiress, Margaret Audley, a niece of his brother-in-law, Thomas Grey. Nine months later in March 1556, Margaret gave birth to a son.

Thomas Howard, who was to marry Margaret Audley, married Elizabeth Leybourne instead, breaking off her betrothal to Thomas Dacre, 4th Baron Dacre.

In August 1555, after two and a half years of marriage, Jane Grey gave birth to a son for Guilford, whom they named Guilford.

Around the same time, Catherine gave birth to Philip Herbert.

On 15th January 1556, Emperor Charles V of Spain abdicated, making his son, Prince Philip, the new King.

In July 1556, Princess Margaret of England arrived in Austria to marry Charles, Archduke of Austria, cousin to Henry’s wife, Joanna of Spain and her siblings, Philip and Maria.

On the death of King John III of Portugal on 11th June 1557, he was succeeded by his brother, Henry. Unfortunately, plague spread through Portugal and killed Henry within weeks of his coronation. The new King Philip of Spain immediately claimed the throne of Portugal as the closest heir to Portugal; his claim was successful and he became King of Portugal as well as King of Spain.

In early December 1557, both Jane and Catherine gave birth; Jane to a girl, named after her, and Catherine to another son, this time named Edward.

In December 1557, Elizabeth gave birth to another daughter, Anne and her sister-in-law, Princess Cecilia of Sweden, travelled to England, arriving in January 1558.

The marriage between Cecilia and Edward took place in February 1558 and was consummated immediately; Princess Cecilia and Edward, Duke of York, were entirely different – Cecilia loved parties and fun, while Edward was a scholar and frugal, though not miserly.

On January 1st, 1558, Margaret of England gave birth to Charles of Austria’s son, Ferdinand, who died a month later.

On the 24th of April 1558, Mary, Queen of Scots married Francis, Dauphin of France, making him King Consort of Scotland.

Princess Cecilia gave birth to a son, named Edmund – after Edward’s uncle and great-grandfather – on 7th January 1559. At the news of Prince Edmund’s birth, King Henry IX was pleased; Queen Joanna, at the news, burst into tears and fled into seclusion for two weeks, not emerging until early February. By this point, the marriage between the increasingly corpulent King Henry IX and Queen Joanna had still not been consummated.

To celebrate the birth of a legitimate Prince and an heir to the throne, King Henry threw a party and jousts. The following day, Prince Edward lectured his brother on his spending and revealed that the English treasury, through alliances, celebrations and Henry’s continual over-eating, was almost entirely empty; slowly but surely, Henry was bankrupting England – Henry ignored his brother’s lecture.

After her brother, the new King Philip of Spain, wrote to her, Queen Joanna finally made a move to have her marriage to King Henry IX consummated – by making the first move herself. Finally, after nine years, the marriage between King Henry IX and Queen Joanna was consummated. King Henry was still shy, painfully awkward and very fat, while Queen Joanna was still shy and painfully awkward. The consummation was very painful for Queen Joanna.

Eventually, King Henry realised that, while making love to Queen Joanna, he had to accommodate for his weight. By allowing Queen Joanna to be on top in their love making on occasions, the King was able to accommodate for his weight, though he was, more often than not, on top in their nightly activities.

In February 1559, Princess Margaret of England gave birth to another child for Charles, Archduke of Austria; this time, a daughter – Anne – who was their first living child.

On 22nd June 1559, Elisabeth of Valois – daughter of Henry II of France and Catherine de’ Medici – married Prince Carlos of Spain, becoming Princess of Asturias on marriage; Prince Carlos was ugly and deformed, but treated Elisabeth warmly and friendly and a true love match began between them. The marriage of Elisabeth and Carlos was a double marriage; Carlos’s cousin, Philip’s niece, Anna of Austria, married King Philip at the age of 10.

On the 10th of July 1559, King Henry of France died and Francis, Dauphin of France became King of France with his wife, Mary, Queen of Scots as his consort.

Shortly after her father’s death, Elisabeth was pregnant; Carlos, who suffered from an enlarged Hapsburg chin, was thrilled and celebrations were abound in the Spanish Court.

Finally, after nine years of marriage and much to her relief, Queen Joanna found herself pregnant in August 1559.

Elisabeth gave birth to a son, named Carlos Philip, in April 1560. By the end of July, she had conceived again, much to Carlos’s delight; he worshipped her and gave her anything she wanted – in this case, a dog.

In May 1560, Queen Joanna went into labour, giving birth to a daughter, whom she and King Henry named Anne. Guilford Dudley, Edward, Duke of York, Princess Cecilia and King Philip of Spain stood as godparents.

Celebrations of a legitimate heir to the throne – even if it was a girl – spread through London; joust, parties and bonfires filled London and the country. Once again, Edward, Duke of York, lectured his brother on his spending habits; like before, King Henry ignored his brother.

In June 1560, Princess Anne of England was betrothed to Prince Carlos Philip of Spain.

On August 1560, Jane and Catherine gave birth; Catherine to a girl, Mary, and Jane to a son, Henry. These children would be the last children that the two sisters had.

On 10th November 1560, Princess Margaret gave birth to another daughter, Maria Christina.

In July 1560, Princess Cecilia announced that she was pregnant. Though she and Prince Edward were very different, the two had grown fond and affectionate of each other – Cecilia realised that it was better to have a scholarly loyal husband than a wild, unfaithful husband. Edward also realised that, despite being fond of parties and fun, Princess Cecilia also knew of money matters and was frugal; the two bonded over Edward’s work, starting up a relationship that was warm, loving and affectionate. Unlike King Henry, who was growing more and more corpulent, Edward still remained slim and well-built.

In December 1560, with King Francis recently recovered from an ear infection that had been stopped by cauterizing the infected wound to remove the infection, Mary, Queen of Scots, announced that she was pregnant, having conceived in October.

In April 1561, Cecilia gave birth to a daughter, whom she and Edward named after her. Around the same time, Elisabeth, Princess of Asturias and wife of Carlos, gave birth to another child; like before, this child was a son, whom they named Ferdinand Maximilian.

On August 5th 1561, Queen Mary of Scots gave birth to a daughter, whom she and Francis named Catherine.

On January 4th 1562, Princess Margaret gave birth to another daughter, Catherine Reneta; over the next fourteen years she would give birth to 11 children: Elisabeth, Ferdinand, Charles, Gregoria Maximiliana, Eleanor, Maximilian Ernest, Margaret, Leopold, Constance, Maria Magdalena and Charles, who was born after his father’s death in 1590.

On the 9th May 1562, Lady Catherine Knollys, brother of Henry Carey and King Henry IX’s cousin, gave birth to her last child, Dudley.

Princess Cecilia gave birth to another son, this one named Henry after the King, on August 18th 1562.

On October 10th 1562, King Henry fell ill with smallpox; thankfully, he was not scarred and made a quick recovery, unlike many peasants in England, who died.

Queen Joanna gave birth to her next child, another daughter, on 15th March 1563; the child was named Elizabeth, the English version of Joanna’s mother’s name.

A month later, on 15th April 1563, Queen Mary of Scotland gave birth to a son, named after her husband, Francis.

On 17th June 1563, Princess Elizabeth was betrothed to Prince Francis of France.

On the 6th of June 1563, King Philip and Anna of Austria consummated their marriage and Elisabeth, wife of Carlos, gave birth to a daughter, whom they named Isabella Clara Eugenia.

On August 12th 1564, Elisabeth, wife of Carlos, gave birth to Catherine Michelle.

In October 1564, Cecilia gave birth to a daughter, Catherine.

On 16 July 1565, Lady Mary Grey made an illegal marriage to Thomas Keyes; for this, she was banished into exile.

On 11th November 1565, Queen Anna of Spain gave birth to a son, Ferdinand – commonly known as Fernando to avoid mixing him up with his nephew.

A few weeks later, on the 7th of December 1565, Princess Cecilia gave birth to another daughter, whom she and Edward named Elizabeth.

Queen Mary of Scots gave birth to another son – James – on 19th June 1566.

On Christmas Day 1566, Elisabeth, wife of Carlos, gave birth to Henry Alfonso.

On the 11th of March 1567, Queen Anna of Spain gave birth to Maria Anna.

On July 18th 1567, Cecilia gave birth to a son, Richard.

By Christmas 1567 it was obvious that something was terribly wrong with Philip and Anna’s child, Fernando; twenty five months old, he had not said a word and was not yet walking. When a lizard bit him on the hand in a visit from the French Ambassador, he threw it to the ground and flew into a rage, later bursting into tears when he discovered he had squashed the lizard. While not a major event, it proved to the nations of the world that something was wrong with the little Infante.

In August 1568, Queen Joanna gave birth to her third child; again, it was another daughter, whom she and Henry named Mary. There was a large celebration for the birth of Princess Mary; Edward, Duke of York, once again lectured his brother – who was starting a costly war with Ireland – on his spending and over-indulgence. Fed up of his brother’s lectures, Henry sent Edward to Ireland with an army – though he claimed it was to deal with the rebellions there, it was really to get rid of Edward and his lectures.

On 11th November 1568, Elisabeth, wife of Carlos, gave birth to Diego Eduardo.

On June 18th 1569, Queen Anna of Spain gave birth to a daughter called Joanna Isabella.

By December of 1569, Edward had dealt with the rebels – namely, by killing them – and Queen Joanna gave birth to another child; like the previous three children, this child was also a daughter – she and Henry named the child Joanna.

After the celebrations of Joanna’s birth, Henry finally realised that Edward was right – England was, finally, bankrupt – and sucked up his pride, summoning his brother back to England.

In October 1569, Joanna announced she was pregnant again.

Edward arrived back in England, with Cecilia – who was pregnant again – and his children in January 1570. An awkward reunion, in which Edward commented on his brother’s size and weight – which had reached an all time high - took place between the two siblings and Edward immediately got to work on fixing England’s financial problems.

 
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mcdnab

Few points with this very interesting tl
1) Anne producing a son makes her position unassailable unless the child were to die as you rightly predict but it completely alters life for many of the Henrician nobility and their connections.
2) Henry in common with most of his family was exceptionally reluctant to raise people in rank beyond their wealth. It is exceptionally unlikely Anne's father would become a Duke. He didn't have the wealth to support such a rank (England at this period had only three Duke's - Norfolk, Richmond (Henry's illegitimate son) and Suffolk (Henry's brother in law)). His Earldom was a pretty major advance considering his birth.
3) Henry was it is true frequently frustrated by Mary's reluctance to accept her own station as his illegitimate daughter, the royal supremacy and the annullment of her parent's marriage. Equally Anne was frightened by the threat Mary posed to her own daughter - having a son means irrespective of Catholic doubts about his legitimacy it is extremely unlikely that domestically anyone would support Mary over Henry's undoubted son. Mary herself was until their adulthood not unkind to her OTL siblings and her relations with her father whilst strained gradually improved - he still took great pride in her accomplishments. Henry was also extremely sentimental and to kill his child just doesn't ring true. The damage to his reputation would be immense both at home and abroad.
4) The Pole's - if Mary falls then certainly it will impact on them as Margaret had been her Lady Governness and was close to her and Queen Catherine. However Henry's intial resentment was in regard Reginald's comments in print that his second marriage was motivated not by sincere religious doubts about the validity of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon but his sexual desire for Anne. Initially despite that the Pole's continued to enjoy the King's support - it was their communications with Reginald that motivated Cromwell to move against them - particularly as by 37 Pole was actively urging Henry's deposition. A surviving Anne and a secure succession means Henry is more likely to feel secure and given Anne's survival there is no guarantee that Cromwell will survive as long as he did in OTL. It is debateable whether in your scenario they survive or not - and even in OTL they languished in confinement for years before facing the chop.
5) Henry's religion remained strictly Catholic - he simply replaced the Papacy with himself - it was a combination of Cromwell and Crammer who moved further - In OTL he soon regretted the religious freedom and move to more obvious forms of Protestantism and started to impose a more traditional religious settlement - even with Anne who regards the break with Rome as essential to the legitimacy of her marriage - it is unlikely he will move any further than he did in OTL.
6) Reference George Boleyn - not getting on was not grounds for annulment - Jane Parker's failure to produce an heir would be a better claim - but beware she might contest such a claim and instead allege he was incapable - divorce or annulment was a long and complicated process and highly embarrassing for those involved - whilst George might get one off his sister's great friend Crammer it will not be so simple as you imply. And why would the Queen's brother and heir to an Earldom marry a relatively impoverished lady in waiting when there were far better matches available - given his unhappy marriage I don't think he would wait that long either.
7) Is there a war with Scotland in the early 1540's as part of your scenario? This time to try and marry Anne and Henry's eldest son and Mary Stuart? IF so then Margaret Douglas' marriage makes sense without it it doesn't?
8) If there is then it is likely that in 1547 war with Scotland will still be continuing. Does it end as in OTL with Mary of Guise dispatching Mary Stuart to France and a french betrothal. Cos it is more difficult in a tl with a pro French Queen Consort and then Regent in London.
9) Assuming Henry IX (although Edward was the name intended in OTL for Henry and Anne's first pregnancy OTL Elizabeth) - had a similar upbringing to otl Edward VI then he is going to be at least more Protestant than his father though perhaps not as radical as OTL Edward VI - a Spanish match is highly unlikely given the relation between the countries - not impossible but not likely.
10) English peerages normally pass through the male line - and are normally limited in that way - If George Boleyn dies without male issue then his Dukedom/ or more likely his Earldom will become extinct - Carey will and might successfully try and claim the Earldom of Ormond which was not limited but was disputed and had only been settled in favour of Thomas Boleyn due to his children's relationship with the King. In OTL - Elizabeth refused to created Carey Earl of Wiltshire (in a new creation) in honour of their joint grandfather - in fact late in life she did offer him it and he declined given that she had judged him "unworthy" of it before.
11) John Dudley will not be Duke of Northumberland - his rise was based purely on his place on the regency council of Edward VI and his service to Henry VIII - he is unlikely to get more than the earldom of Warwick he got in OTL before taking control and ousting Seymour. Likewise the marital prospects of the Grey girls now change - their marriages in the early 1550's were based on their place in the succession and Edward VI's health - and largely the result of Dudley's power.
12) A surviving Anne means no changes to the initial Act of Succession - her children surviving mean Henry does not need to do anything further (the third act of succession was based on his being without a legal heir in 1536 and the death of Anne and bastardisation of Elizabeth) - therefore Henry, Edward, Elizabeth, Margaret - followed by the usual traditional succession Mary Stuart, Margaret Douglas, Frances Brandon etc.
13) The marital ambitions of Henry and Anne's children will depend more on international politics and a desire for foreign allies - Spain is difficult on religious grounds and you are dealing with children who have had an anti-spanish pro-french mother - France is more likely but depends on the relations with the Scots - Mary Stuart is the most obvious candidate irrespective of religion and as I said above I can see a rough wooing this time pushed by Henry and then Anne as Regent - the new circumstances might be interesting - failing that then Henri of France's way out might as in otl to suggest Elisabeth for your Henry IX. You don't take religion into account - foreign Catholic powers dispatching a daughter to England will require almost certainly her ability to retain her religion at least in private with the problems that might cause both in a marriage and in public.
 
Tudorfan

Tudorfan

mcdnab said:
Few points with this very interesting tl
1) Anne producing a son makes her position unassailable unless the child were to die as you rightly predict but it completely alters life for many of the Henrician nobility and their connections.
2) Henry in common with most of his family was exceptionally reluctant to raise people in rank beyond their wealth. It is exceptionally unlikely Anne's father would become a Duke. He didn't have the wealth to support such a rank (England at this period had only three Duke's - Norfolk, Richmond (Henry's illegitimate son) and Suffolk (Henry's brother in law)). His Earldom was a pretty major advance considering his birth.
3) Henry was it is true frequently frustrated by Mary's reluctance to accept her own station as his illegitimate daughter, the royal supremacy and the annullment of her parent's marriage. Equally Anne was frightened by the threat Mary posed to her own daughter - having a son means irrespective of Catholic doubts about his legitimacy it is extremely unlikely that domestically anyone would support Mary over Henry's undoubted son. Mary herself was until their adulthood not unkind to her OTL siblings and her relations with her father whilst strained gradually improved - he still took great pride in her accomplishments. Henry was also extremely sentimental and to kill his child just doesn't ring true. The damage to his reputation would be immense both at home and abroad.
4) The Pole's - if Mary falls then certainly it will impact on them as Margaret had been her Lady Governness and was close to her and Queen Catherine. However Henry's intial resentment was in regard Reginald's comments in print that his second marriage was motivated not by sincere religious doubts about the validity of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon but his sexual desire for Anne. Initially despite that the Pole's continued to enjoy the King's support - it was their communications with Reginald that motivated Cromwell to move against them - particularly as by 37 Pole was actively urging Henry's deposition. A surviving Anne and a secure succession means Henry is more likely to feel secure and given Anne's survival there is no guarantee that Cromwell will survive as long as he did in OTL. It is debateable whether in your scenario they survive or not - and even in OTL they languished in confinement for years before facing the chop.
5) Henry's religion remained strictly Catholic - he simply replaced the Papacy with himself - it was a combination of Cromwell and Crammer who moved further - In OTL he soon regretted the religious freedom and move to more obvious forms of Protestantism and started to impose a more traditional religious settlement - even with Anne who regards the break with Rome as essential to the legitimacy of her marriage - it is unlikely he will move any further than he did in OTL.
6) Reference George Boleyn - not getting on was not grounds for annulment - Jane Parker's failure to produce an heir would be a better claim - but beware she might contest such a claim and instead allege he was incapable - divorce or annulment was a long and complicated process and highly embarrassing for those involved - whilst George might get one off his sister's great friend Crammer it will not be so simple as you imply. And why would the Queen's brother and heir to an Earldom marry a relatively impoverished lady in waiting when there were far better matches available - given his unhappy marriage I don't think he would wait that long either.
7) Is there a war with Scotland in the early 1540's as part of your scenario? This time to try and marry Anne and Henry's eldest son and Mary Stuart? IF so then Margaret Douglas' marriage makes sense without it it doesn't?
8) If there is then it is likely that in 1547 war with Scotland will still be continuing. Does it end as in OTL with Mary of Guise dispatching Mary Stuart to France and a french betrothal. Cos it is more difficult in a tl with a pro French Queen Consort and then Regent in London.
9) Assuming Henry IX (although Edward was the name intended in OTL for Henry and Anne's first pregnancy OTL Elizabeth) - had a similar upbringing to otl Edward VI then he is going to be at least more Protestant than his father though perhaps not as radical as OTL Edward VI - a Spanish match is highly unlikely given the relation between the countries - not impossible but not likely.
10) English peerages normally pass through the male line - and are normally limited in that way - If George Boleyn dies without male issue then his Dukedom/ or more likely his Earldom will become extinct - Carey will and might successfully try and claim the Earldom of Ormond which was not limited but was disputed and had only been settled in favour of Thomas Boleyn due to his children's relationship with the King. In OTL - Elizabeth refused to created Carey Earl of Wiltshire (in a new creation) in honour of their joint grandfather - in fact late in life she did offer him it and he declined given that she had judged him "unworthy" of it before.
11) John Dudley will not be Duke of Northumberland - his rise was based purely on his place on the regency council of Edward VI and his service to Henry VIII - he is unlikely to get more than the earldom of Warwick he got in OTL before taking control and ousting Seymour. Likewise the marital prospects of the Grey girls now change - their marriages in the early 1550's were based on their place in the succession and Edward VI's health - and largely the result of Dudley's power.
12) A surviving Anne means no changes to the initial Act of Succession - her children surviving mean Henry does not need to do anything further (the third act of succession was based on his being without a legal heir in 1536 and the death of Anne and bastardisation of Elizabeth) - therefore Henry, Edward, Elizabeth, Margaret - followed by the usual traditional succession Mary Stuart, Margaret Douglas, Frances Brandon etc.
13) The marital ambitions of Henry and Anne's children will depend more on international politics and a desire for foreign allies - Spain is difficult on religious grounds and you are dealing with children who have had an anti-spanish pro-french mother - France is more likely but depends on the relations with the Scots - Mary Stuart is the most obvious candidate irrespective of religion and as I said above I can see a rough wooing this time pushed by Henry and then Anne as Regent - the new circumstances might be interesting - failing that then Henri of France's way out might as in otl to suggest Elisabeth for your Henry IX. You don't take religion into account - foreign Catholic powers dispatching a daughter to England will require almost certainly her ability to retain her religion at least in private with the problems that might cause both in a marriage and in public.
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1) Yeah, it changes a lot with Anne’s survival.

2) Henry raised Charles Brandon to a Duke, even though Charles was a nothing – Thomas Boleyn was the same; he was a nothing before Anne caught Henry’s interest. Thus, it can work in this situation.

3) The repercussions of Henry killing Mary would be immense, yes – that’s why I had Henry IX marry The Emperor’s son; it’s to smooth over relations with Spain over Mary’s death. While Henry WAS sentimental, this is after his jousting fall; originally, he had Jane there to temper things over between Mary and Henry. In this timeline, Henry has a wife who hates Mary and demands her obedience; if she doesn’t have that, then Mary has to go and Anna cares nothing for the Spanish and is a supporter of France.

4) In this timeline, Henry is very paranoid; he’s seen the Pilgrimage of Grace take place to support one Catholic claimants, Mary, and the Poles are the other claimants that are left, so, like Mary, they too have to go to the chop – confinement in the tower is no good. In the 1490s people rebelled for the Earl of Warwick as a claimant; the same could happen here.

5) While that’s true in OTL, in this timeline Henry has a woman who convinced him to break from Catholicism. As well as this, his son Henry will need a secure kingdom – a rift between Catholic and Protestant with a King raised in the religion of his mother would be a recipe for disaster, so, in this case, I went for Henry letting the country fall, a bit, to Anne’s religion.

6) While Jane may contest, I had George do it on terms of not getting along as it was not a marriage that worked; Henry is sympathetic to that – his marriage with Catherine failed badly – so he can understand George and, with George’s sister having given him two healthy legitimate sons, there is more of an incentive for him to annul George’s marriage. If George has sons then they, should rebellions come out, are able to raise armies to fight for their King.

7) There is a war in Scotland, I briefly mention it in part 2, but King Henry IX calls it off when he becomes King. Thus, Margaret Douglas can marry safely, given that Scotland and England are, for now at least, peaceful.

8) Relates back to 7) Henry needs a peaceful country that is united; a war with Scotland angers everyone, so it’s called off.

9) He’s not as radical as Edward VI; he works like Elizabeth – punishes people for their actions, not their religion. I had him marry a Princess (or, rather, Infanta) of Spain for two reasons; 1, to smooth over relations, and 2, to show that he is more tolerant of both religions.

10) While you are correct, several titles – Duchess of Cleveland – for example and the title belonging to the Earl of Monmouth were inherited through women; I had Henry VIII do that exact thing here – he re-granted the titles to George with a proviso that, if he has no sons (or male heirs) on his death, then Henry Carey will inherit the title. As all George’s daughters die with him in 1551, I remove them as an obstacle.

11) The Grey girls are still major political pawns for the throne – people want an English King or Queen; after Henry, Edward, Elizabeth and Margaret, they have the most support, even if they are not next in line. As for Dudley, I know that in OTL he got the title of Northumberland after booting out Seymour, but in THIS timeline, he is one of Henry IX’s most trusted people.

12) Yes, you’re right; it’s Henry’s children, then Queen Margaret of Scotland’s children, then Queen Mary’s children with the Duke of Suffolk.

13) I took religion into account deliberately – I did have Anne retreat to Hever for a reason; though she hates the marriage, she is smart enough to realise that an alliance with Spain will forever link England and Spain together. As for the marriage of Edward and Elizabeth – a double marriage with Sweden – I chose it deliberately; Sweden, while Catholic, doesn’t really give a toss about religion (Eric XIV, John’s brother, actually wanted to marry Elizabeth in OTL anyway, so that’s not too much of a stretch to imagine.) That’s also why I had Margaret marry a nephew of the Emperor; if one marriage fails, at least the alliance remains. As well as this, Spain will want her – she has a valid claim to the throne and should anything happen to the boys, Spain is a damn sight closer to England than Sweden is. As for Mary Stuart, well, I have her marry into France and have one of Henry IX’s daughters marry into France as a sort of way to give Anne Boleyn a victory in the end.

Thus, though I may not have written it down, in my head at least, I did think it all over. :D
 
Tudorfan

Tudorfan

The Middle and Last Years of King Henry IX
1570 - 1593

On May 9th 1570, Queen Joanna gave birth to what would be her last child; a boy, whom she and the King name Henry.

On July 8th 1570, Princess Cecelia gives birth to a son - her last child - whom she and her husband named Edward.

Come August, Prince Edward and King Henry finally sat down to discuss England's finances; a more important than ever subject, given the birth of a son.

However, King Henry's weight and eating habits began affecting him in September 1570 and, suffering terribly from gout of the big toe, heels, knees, wrists and fingers, he only slept for a few hours at night, leaving him increasingly irritable.

Working with Prince Edward, Duke of York, King Henry began restoring England's finances to a better state.

King Henry spent Christmas of 1570 confined to his bed with gout; though each of his children, his wife, his brother and sister-in-law and nieces and nephew visited him, his mood remained fractious. Though he recovered from his attack of gout, it would continue to plague him for the rest of his life and, to relieve pressure on his joints, he was required to walk with a cane.

On June 12th 1571, at the age of eleven, Princess Anne was sent to Spain to marry Prince Carlos Philip. Her mother, who was pleased for the marriage, missed her deeply. Her father embraced her and told her to “make England proud” in her marriage.

On 4th September 1571, Antoinette gave birth to her first and only child – Arabella – before dying, at the age of 29, in childbirth.

Queen Anna of Spain gave birth to another son, Henry James, on 11th November 1571. This would be her last child.

In April 1572, Dowager Queen Anne Boleyn died at Hever.

Later that same year, Arabella – a weak sickly girl – died at the age of eight months old; her father, Charles – heavily obese and having lost any claim to the English throne through his descendants – drank and ate himself to death weeks later, dying from a surfeit of Quails Eggs that he has imported from Calais.

On 7th April 1573, Princess Elizabeth, ten years old, was sent to France to marry Prince Francis. King Henry, who was confined to bed with gout, embraced his daughter and kissed her goodbye.

On the 18th October 1574, Princess Anne gave birth to Prince Philip Carlos. Weeks later, King Philip died in suspicious circumstances, making Carlos, Prince of Asturias and his wife, Elizabeth of Valois, King and Queen of Spain. On the accession of Carlos and Elizabeth, Prince Carlos Philip and Anne became Prince and Princess of Asturias.

In January 1575, Edward, Duke of York, worked tirelessly to restore England’s finances and fell gravely ill; on the orders of the King he retired to York Castle and, slowly but surely, recovered, returning to court for the Christmas Festivities of that year. From that day on, Prince Edward lived life to the full, though still kept England’s finances under control.

On February 26th 1577, Eric XIV of Sweden died and Henry IX’s sister, Elizabeth, became Queen Consort of Sweden.

In 1578, the last case of the sweating sickness spread through England, killing many. King Henry IX caught the sickness and recovered, but the sickness, combined with gout and continual over-indulgence, had beaten his health almost too its end.

Princess Mary was betrothed to Mehmed III, future Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, in 1578.

On July 16th 1579 war in Ireland resumed when James FitzMaurice FitzGerald lands with a small force of Irish, Spanish, and Italian troops at Smerwick on the Dingle peninsula in south-western Ireland and commences the Second Desmond Rebellion against the rule in Ireland of King Henry IX.

The war with Ireland, or at least the Second Desmond Rebellion, would continue until 1583.

In January 1581, Prince Edward announces to his brother that England, finally, is no longer bankrupt. While the King is pleased, it is obvious that his health is not at all well; the King is riddled with gout, fatter than his father ever grew to be, cannot walk and rarely sleeps.

Princess Joanna was betrothed to Karl I, Prince of Liechtenstein at Christmas 1581.

King Henry’s weight reached its highest weight yet – 35 stone – and his health continued to fail through most of 1582. The effects of Prince Edward having begun to enjoy his life in 1575 were beginning to show on him too; he too was settling into the stoutness that came from their father.

In early 1583, the Duke of York wished to travel to Ireland to end the rebellions there; it was a large waste of England’s finances and needed to be ended. Though the King granted permission, the corpulent Duke never made it to Ireland, being too corpulent for his armour; by the time the newly made armour arrived, the rebellions had been crushed by the King’s army.

In early 1584, King Henry IX passed an Act of Parliament confirming that his son would come of age at sixteen and rule under his own authority without a regent.

On August 14th 1585, King Henry IX agreed – after a discussion with the Duke of York as to whether England’s finances could take it – to establish a protectorate over the Netherlands.

On August 17th, the first group of colonists sent by Sir Walter Raleigh under the charge of Ralph Lane lands in the New World to create Roanoke Colony on Roanoke Island, off the coast of North Carolina. This group will depart the following June.

On July 6th 1586, King Henry and Queen Mary of Scots and her husband King Francis II of France signed the Treaty of Berwick, agreeing to peace between Scotland, France and England.

Over the next few years, the King’s health began drastically failing, with the Duke of York and the Prince of Wales taking over many of his duties. During these years the Duke of York’s weight continues to increase and he begins to waddle, rather than walk. Princess Joanna also travels to marry Karl I, Prince of Liechtenstein.

On November 17th 1592, King Henry received news of his brother-in-law’s death and the accession of his nephew, King Sigismund, to the Swedish throne.

That Christmas, riddled by gout, impotent and immobile, King Henry IX fell gravely ill; too most, it was clear he was dying.

According to popular rumours, substantiated by the Duke’s own memoirs, the King invited him to his chambers and spoke privately to him; thanking the Duke for his work with England’s finances, the King raised a hand and patted the Duke’s steadily rounding stomach, telling him to “never end up as fat as I” and to “remember this day, brother”.

Then, dismissing the Duke with an embrace, the King summoned his son and wife, before dying in the early hours of January 1st, 1593, allowing his very corpulent twenty two year old son to succeed him as King.

King Henry X’s Years
1593 – 1613

King Henry X was crowned on his twenty third birthday, 9th May 1573, in glorious style that showed off England’s recovering finances.

In January 1595, twenty four year old King Henry X married nineteen year old Marie de’ Medici, a relative of the Kings of France through Dowager Queen Catherine de’ Medici. Stupid and pretty, the Queen was exactly what the king wanted; someone fertile and not smart enough to plot against him.

Over the next few years of their marriage, Queen Marie gave birth to three daughters – Elizabeth (b. 11th February 1596), Mary (b. 11th August 1597) and Cecily (b. 20th March 1599) – and gave birth to a son, Edward, on 4th November 1600.

Unlike Marie, who often pressed her husband for war with Spain during their pillow talk, the aged Duke of York convinced his nephew that war with Spain would be a bad thing for England’s finances, which had only just truly recovered; King Henry agreed.

Their next child, Princess Margaret, was born on 10th April 1602; two weeks later, Dowager Queen Joanna died.

Elizabeth Tudor, Dowager Queen of Sweden, died on 25th March 1603.

On 17th August 1603, Queen Marie gave birth to another son, Richard.

Though he arrived at court for Christmas of 1603, it was obvious that the Duke of York, drastically increased in weight, fatter than his brother ever was, waddling and now suffering from gout, was ill.

Now 30, King Henry X was becoming more and more corpulent, arriving late to the Christmas festivities due to having to have his doublet taken out.

Having survived his brother by eleven years to the day, the Duke of York died on January 1st, 1604; he had – in the years since his brother’s death – become his brother and had not listened to his brother’s rational words on his death bed.

The English Court was plunged into mourning for the Duke of York; King Henry, wise in matters of money like his uncle, gave him an extravagant funeral – two days after his burial, the Duke of York’s coffin broke its stands under the weight of the body inside.

On January 1st 1605, on the one year anniversary of his death, Queen Marie fell pregnant. She gave birth to another daughter, Anne, on 2nd November 1605.

In March 1607, Marie gave birth to another son, whom she and Henry called George.

Marie would have two more children – Catherine on 14th August 1609 and Bridget on 10th November 1610 – over the next three years; they would be her last children.

King Henry X fell ill at Easter 1613 after retiring to bed after a hunting trip in which he had fallen in a lake.

King Henry X died – nineteen days before his forty third birthday – on 20th April 1613, leaving his twelve year old son, Edward, as King.

King Henry IX suffered from undiagnosed type 2 diabetes, something inherited from his mother, Joanna (who inherited it from her grandfather, Philip I of Castile); both Henry IX and Edward, Duke of York – though it took longer to manifest in the latter – suffered from obesity inherited from their father who was overweight and later obese at their conceptions.

King Henry X inherited the obesity and diabetes from his father and King Edward VII inherited it from his father, dying of obesity and diabetes related complications on his fifteenth birthday in 1615, leaving his twelve year old brother, Richard, as King.

King Richard later married Princess Elisabeth – granddaughter of Elizabeth Tudor and King Francis III (son of Francis II and Mary, Queen of Scots) and son of the newly crowned King Francis IV – in 1618. He was fifteen, she was twelve.

King Richard IV would rule England for eighty years, dying at the age of 92 in 1695. For the last thirty years of his reign he would be riddled with guilt, almost blind and so fat that he could not walk and was confined to bed with his great-grandson taking over most of his duties. Prince Richard and his son, also named Richard, both died of obesity related illnesses at the age of 43 and 18 respectively, leaving Prince Edward and his brother, Henry, as heirs to the throne.

Prince Edward became King in 1695, at the age of twenty, on the death of his great-grandfather; he would rule for seventy three years, dying in 1768. Having never married, he was succeeded by his great-nephew, Henry. (Prince Henry was the son of Prince Henry, who was the son of King Edward VII’s brother, Henry).

Prince Henry became King, aged twenty, in 1768. Marrying into the Dynasty of Sweden, he would cure (or at least reduce the risk of suffering from) diabetes and obesity in his descendants by marrying someone who did not have it. He married Princess Charlotta Elisabetta Katarina Vasa of Sweden, a twenty year old, in 1834. She would give him one child, a son, Henry.

King Henry XI died in 1835. His successors would remain on the throne – as would the Tudor Dynasty – until the modern day; diabetes and obesity eventually fizzled itself out of his descendants in the early 1870s.

---
The next update will start to move into what is, in OUR timeline, the Victorian Era.
 
Tudorfan

Tudorfan

PulkitNahata said:
How is a Christian Princess betrothed to a Muslim Price in the year 1578? This is not at all possible.
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I said "betrothed"; it's a long way from Bended knee to the alter and, looking back over my information, I realised I never said her fate - i'll make a note of it in the next part.
 

Saepe Fidelis

Tudorfan said:
I said "betrothed"; it's a long way from Bended knee to the alter and, looking back over my information, I realised I never said her fate - i'll make a note of it in the next part.
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No. Just no. Francis I was almost universally hated for military co-operation with the Ottomans, a marriage alliance would be unthinkable.

Also:
What happened to Thomas Cromwell? If you want to make England more conventionally Protestant during the Henrician reformation you're going to have to explain what he's doing-Cranmer too.

Henry would never execute his own daughter. His mood deteriorated after his OTL jousting accident, yes, which was one of the contributory factors to the spree of executions in the 1540s that devastated the court. But he'd never do it to his own daughter, especially given that by all accounts after a few years of marriage he just wasn't that fond of Anne Boleyn. When it came to driving family (and religious) policy he'd much more likely listen to his (male) noble councillors. Or not. Henry rarely listened to anyone on matters such as faith and family.
 
Tudorfan

Tudorfan

I have yet to truly get on to Cromwell; he's not alive - he'd be over 200! I just haven't said what he got up to.

Henry VIII did actually threaten Mary I with execution in 1536 unless she submitted to him; here, he actually went through with it.

Aye, but in the original timeline, Anne had not given him a son and failed in her duty.

Why do you think I chose not to go with a marriage and merely a betrothal?
 

SvoHljott

A Christian (on top of that, English) princess isn't going to get betrothed or married to an Ottoman or any other Muslim. It's ASB of the highest caliber.
 
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