The Italian diaspora = Majority somewhere

[DuQuense]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_diaspora#Italian_ancestry_by_country

The term Italian diaspora refers to the large-scale migration of Italians away from Italy in the period roughly beginning with the unification of Italy in 1861 and ending with the Italian economic miracle in the 1960s. The Italian diaspora concerned nearly 25 million Italians and it is considered the biggest mass migration of contemporary times.

The Italians emigrated to the US, Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, SAfrica, Australia, & New Zealand.
Now in OTL the US got the most of these.

?Can whe come up with a POD that stops the US Immigration, and sends enuff Immigrants into one of the others to make Italians the Majority.
IE - Italian new Zealand or Italian Cuba [for example]

 

[brick24alpha]

Argentina with ease, if the US tightened immigration restrictions earlier in the 1900's then more Italians might have gone to Argentina. People of Italian decent comprise large percent of the population now, it wouldn't be hard to tip the balance.

Malta is another possibility, all you need to do is want to occupy it All you would need is a couple hundred thousand people, then deport the native population

 

[Devolved]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_diaspora#Italian_ancestry_by_country



The Italians emigrated to the US, Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, SAfrica, Australia, & New Zealand.
Now in OTL the US got the most of these.

?Can whe come up with a POD that stops the US Immigration, and sends enuff Immigrants into one of the others to make Italians the Majority.
IE - Italian new Zealand or Italian Cuba [for example]

Remember that many Italians returned home. Many of the 25 million were migrant workers earning money to get married. In Argentina the Italians are the largest ethnic group but they speak many dialects and abandoned their language in favour of Spanish quite quickly.

 

[iori]

The real issue is that until a certain point their is'nt really a strong 'Italian' identity, and the Italian language was so diverse that it actually ranged from simply being different dialects and/or accents that were mutually understandable to instances where they could barely understand what someone else was saying, this is of course the reason why Italian is not a major language in Argentina, even though it could have been if their was a single unified language at the time.

Related to this of course is that Italians, like many groups (especially at the time) would be more likely to identify as Venetian or Sicilian rather than Italian, so you could have a case where immigrants from the Italian peninsula and their children end up being the majority somewhere, but the place not being 'Italian' itself, especially if you have immigrants from all over Italy. Now, if you get immigration primarily from the same area you could see the language and customs and such be transplanted, but this would be leave you with Sicilian Cuba (not that it was'nt to far off foe awhile ) rather than Italian Cuba.

 

[ThomasTheviking]

Libya

A former Italian colony, with only 6 milion people today, would have been a good choice, where the Italians could have stayed ande become the dominant population.

The original population is Arab, so the Italians would not be assimilated. It is close to Italy, with a clomate like Southern Italy....and eventually they found oil!!

 

[Falecius]

A former Italian colony, with only 6 milion people today, would have been a good choice, where the Italians could have stayed ande become the dominant population.

The original population is Arab, so the Italians would not be assimilated. It is close to Italy, with a clomate like Southern Italy....and eventually they found oil!!

Italy tried quite hard OTL. Arabs were deported and starved to death in camps, and lands assigned to Italian farmers in projects of planned agricultural settlement. It never worked. Actually, many Italians still preferred to go in Argentina by themselves than in Lybia with governmental support. And, however, that support was a money sink, as were similar projects in Eritrea. AFAIK, the only "official" agricultural project of colonization that ever produced some revenue in Italian colonies was Afgoye, in Somalia, and it made also use of native Somali work. The problem is that Lybia proved not be the promised land many Italians had dreamed of ("a granary" they said. Yes. Referring to Lybia). It couldn't support a large population, and giving lands to Italian settlers would mean taking it from the natives. Who aren't exactly going to react kindly, as they didn't OTL.

 

[Falecius]

OTOH, Argentina is very viable.

 

[Petete123123]

Argentina it can be. But we established a law in the early XX Century, the Residence Law, which allowed the government to expell any immigrant who caused trouble. And as many Italians who came from Northern Italy were Anarchists or Socialists, this reduced their Immigration. Southern Italian immigrantion continued anyway and even increased, as it was more an economical issue.

Two things will work. One having the goverment incentivate Northern Italian immigration 20 years early(easy, have Alberdi ideas of the prosperous White Men also include Northern Italians, he can say the descend from Langobardis or something like that). Southern Italian is more difficult, but it should become important after 20-30 years Northern Italian immigration started, as the goverment would have understand that massive British immigration is not going to happen and will lessen their expectatives as OTL(which happened in 1900 more or less as Northern Italian immigration was important around 1870).

And if the goverment actually gave lands to immigrants as they promised, it could attract even more. Also, they could approach Italian immigrants in Brazil via agents and propose them to move to Argentina, as many were not happy because of climate.

 

[Frentanus]

Italy tried quite hard OTL. Arabs were deported and starved to death in camps, and lands assigned to Italian farmers in projects of planned agricultural settlement. It never worked. Actually, many Italians still preferred to go in Argentina by themselves than in Lybia with governmental support. And, however, that support was a money sink, as were similar projects in Eritrea. AFAIK, the only "official" agricultural project of colonization that ever produced some revenue in Italian colonies was Afgoye, in Somalia, and it made also use of native Somali work. The problem is that Lybia proved not be the promised land many Italians had dreamed of ("a granary" they said. Yes. Referring to Lybia). It couldn't support a large population, and giving lands to Italian settlers would mean taking it from the natives. Who aren't exactly going to react kindly, as they didn't OTL.

Well, the efforts to send settlers in libya were stopped by the war, and it was just since the last years that mussolini was sending large number of settlers in libya (20.000 in 1938). I agree with you about the difficulties to support a much larger italian population, and the new-founded villages didnt work good, but i dont think that an italian majority in the major cities was impossibile. In 1939 tripoli was 37% inhabited by italians. Whitout ww2 there is not large italian emigration in northern europe in the late 40's and 50's and 60's, and these people could go to the colonies.
Whitout ww2 it could be possible to have an italian majority in tripoli, bengazi and maybe tobruk and misurata and an arab majority in the rest of the country.

 

[Falecius]

Well, the efforts to send settlers in libya were stopped by the war, and it was just since the last years that mussolini was sending large number of settlers in libya (20.000 in 1938). I agree with you about the difficulties to support a much larger italian population, and the new-founded villages didnt work good, but i dont think that an italian majority in the major cities was impossibile. In 1939 tripoli was 37% inhabited by italians. Whitout ww2 there is not large italian emigration in northern europe in the late 40's and 50's and 60's, and these people could go to the colonies.
Whitout ww2 it could be possible to have an italian majority in tripoli, bengazi and maybe tobruk and misurata and an arab majority in the rest of the country.

I agree that assuming Italy neutral in WWII, or no WWII, Lybia will end having a significant Italian population. But it will stay a money sink for Italy, until oil enters the equation, and even more so if the state goes on in funding settling schemes.

 

[Joseph Solis in Australia]

Argentina is the easier one, but the second-generation Italians will not speak Italian anymore because most Italians in Argentina never speaks with the Tuscan dialect, which is the basis of the Standard Italian. Had 1930 coup butterflies away and Peron never rises in politics but instead a political and economic stability in Argentina, well we could see more Italian immigration to Argentina and may become majority by 1950s.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Well you have Argentina though you're not going to have the Italians there retain their dialects after a generation or two. Libya is certainly possible, if Italy butted out of World War II.

 

[Petete123123]

Argentina is the easier one, but the second-generation Italians will not speak Italian anymore because most Italians in Argentina never speaks with the Tuscan dialect, which is the basis of the Standard Italian. Had 1930 coup butterflies away and Peron never rises in politics but instead a political and economic stability in Argentina, well we could see more Italian immigration to Argentina and may become majority by 1950s.

Even better, I have another POD. There are three changes. One, give lands to immigrants. That way they will have a bigger grow and there will be more of their descendants. Second, avoid the OTL Education Program of Argentina, which was quite effective. Third, avoid the law of Obligatory Military Service, which was used to forge an Argentinean identity. Or alternatively, allow the conscripts to be put in different divisions according to their language or community.

 

[Falecius]

Even better, I have another POD. There are three changes. One, give lands to immigrants. That way they will have a bigger grow and there will be more of their descendants. Second, avoid the OTL Education Program of Argentina, which was quite effective. Third, avoid the law of Obligatory Military Service, which was used to forge an Argentinean identity. Or alternatively, allow the conscripts to be put in different divisions according to their language or community.

Your third point is rather unlikely. It's like saying Argentina is willingly choosing not to be a nation state.

 

[pa_dutch]

Italian heritage IS the majority in Uruguay.

 

[Jimbrock]

Argentina with ease, if the US tightened immigration restrictions earlier in the 1900's then more Italians might have gone to Argentina. People of Italian decent comprise large percent of the population now, it wouldn't be hard to tip the balance.

Malta is another possibility, all you need to do is want to occupy it All you would need is a couple hundred thousand people, then deport the native population

Malta? Not possible, as it's already too crowded as it is, and always was. The Maltese are (were) already basically considered Italians, so theres no point in that. And 'deport the natives'? You must be joking.

I think that Argentina (with a more cohesive Italian identity and a less succesful Argentinian policy) and Libya (with more success in the many government schemes) could work.

 

[Joseph Solis in Australia]

If there was no education reform in Argentina, then the dominant language will be the Lombard variety of Italian since this language was the dominant language among the Italian immigrants before 1900. In Brazil, the dominant group are the Venetians. In US, Canada, Australia and Libya, the dominant group are the Sicilians.

 

[Petete123123]

If there was no education reform in Argentina, then the dominant language will be the Lombard variety of Italian since this language was the dominant language among the Italian immigrants before 1900. In Brazil, the dominant group are the Venetians. In US, Canada, Australia and Libya, the dominant group are the Sicilians.

Actually the Piamontese were.

Here's a list with regional origins of the Italian Immigration to Argentina.

North: 41,1%:

• Piamontese 16,5%
• Lombard 10,4%
• Venetian 7,2%
• Ligurian 4,5%
• Emilian 2,5%

Centre: 11,9%

• Marchian 8,2%
• Umbrian 0,3%
• Lacian 0,5%
• Toscan 2,9%

South: 47%

• Abruzzian 6,3%
• Campanian 7,7%
• Basilicatian 4,3%
• Calabrese 13,4%
• Sicilian 11,3%
• Sardinian 1,0%

*The percentage is bigger than North but not the effects, as although more Southerns immigrated, the Northerns did so one generation earliers, so when the Southern came there already was a second generation of Northern ones.

 

[Dan1988]

If there was no education reform in Argentina, then the dominant language will be the Lombard variety of Italian since this language was the dominant language among the Italian immigrants before 1900. In Brazil, the dominant group are the Venetians.

So, mix Venetian and Piedmontese together and have them influence completely the local variety of Spanish (which was already quite different from the rest of Latin American Spanish). The result could sound like (and be perceived by non-Argentines/non-Uruguayans) a "Portuñol", but would still be recognizably Spanish.

 

[Nugax]

The Italians emigrated to the US, Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, SAfrica, Australia, & New Zealand.
Now in OTL the US got the most of these.

?Can whe come up with a POD that stops the US Immigration, and sends enuff Immigrants into one of the others to make Italians the Majority.
IE - Italian new Zealand or Italian Cuba [for example]

Wrong. The US got the plurality, but the numbers that went to Argentina and Brazil were each 70-80% of the american total. The US got rather less than half the total movement. Changing these proportions would be a trivial exersize.

There already are parts of Argentina/Uruguay/Brazil that are super majority Italin ethnic. Are you asking if they maintain their cultural identity more?