I stand corrected - for reasons that escape me I thought Baku was more north-west than it is by... alot. But it remains a critical strategic asset... I guess the only choice would be to bomb the crap out of it and hope it sticks.
The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
I stand corrected - for reasons that escape me I thought Baku was more north-west than it is by... alot. But it remains a critical strategic asset... I guess the only choice would be to bomb the crap out of it and hope it sticks.
Yeah keep bombing it is probably the best option during the early war and concetrate on the central front is my thought . If 1942 was aimed at moscow again things could have been very interesting i think atleast . Or just aimed at stalingrad and not having a thrust towards baku and its oilfields in 42 atleast . Maybe instead of kursk in 43 you go for baku instead?
Very interested how this goes tough since its rather diffrent from otl already since french arent panicking since there is a reserve . I guess they could panic if 2nd and 7th army attacks fail in acheiving their objectives .
Very interested how this goes tough since its rather diffrent from otl already since french arent panicking since there is a reserve . I guess they could panic if 2nd and 7th army attacks fail in acheiving their objectives .
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16th May 1940 (part 2)
16th May 1940 (part 2)
Paris
Prime Minister Churchill has flown in to have discussions with Paul Reynaud. While obviously extremely worried about the situation - the fall of Sedan was a terrible shock to France, he knows Billotte still had a few cards to play, and with Churchill's support decides to at least wait on these. If Billotte fails, he privately feels France is done for, a decision his mistress is doing her best to reinforce.
The French also press Churchill for more support, especially air support which can be involved quickly. The British point out that they are actually flying more sorties to support the Northern armies than the French are, and while they will try and do more to cover Holland and Belgium, surely the powerful French Air Force can do more itself? Churchill also promises more ground forces, although these will take a few weeks to arrive.
In the afternoon, Reynaud has an acrimonious meeting with the French Air Force chief of staff, General Joseph Vuillemin. Reynaud demands that he finds more aircraft to support the Army in the desperate defence of France. Vuillemin seems unworried by the accusations that the Air Force is not doing all it can, explaining that it needs to husband its resources. Reynaud points out acerbically that if the current situation is not the one that the resources have been kept for, then what is? Vuillemin is sent away with the instruction to find more planes immediately, the unspoken addition being that if he can't, someone else will.
England
1st Canadian Division had been glad to recover its 'missing' brigade from Norway a week ago - the brigade has, as had been promised, been replaced by a British territorial brigade - and its commanders had been watching the battles in France with close professional interest. It was hardly surprising when they received orders to ready themselves for a move to France, and to report what they still needed and how soon they could be ready. There was considerable speculation as to exactly where they would end up, things in France right now seemed confused at best, even to army officers with a bit more knowledge that was being covered in the press. The time spent in Norway had often been one of confusion and less-than-clear commands, and Major-General McNaughton was determined that this wouldn't be the case this time.
At Southampton, 48 Scimitar tanks waiting to be loaded onto ships bound for Alexandria are ordered back to Bovington. While they are needed in Egypt, if the situation in France doesn't stabilise soon, they may well be needed closer to home.
The situation in France indicates that replacement tanks will soon be required. The problem is that until the situation stabilises somewhat it's impossible to say where they will need to be send. Accordingly orders are sent to take 100 Sabre and 50 Cutlass tanks from the reserve and prepare them for shipment to Europe, but not to actually load them until the decision on where to send them is made. However as they will be combat replacements, they should be checked mechanically and that they are fully equipped with everything except fuel and ammunition and ready for immediate shipping.
The 1st Canadian Division isn't the only unit being designated for an early trip to France. The 52nd (Lowland) Division is also being readied. Ideally there should also be a tank element, but 2nd Armoured Division is not yet ready, and 2nd Independent Tank Brigade is still being formed. It's not yet clear whether this force will be a new Corps or used as replacement for units who have suffered losses in combat, but after some thought 3rd Armoured Brigade (the first part of 2nd Armoured to be ready) is assigned to the force, some juggling of the new divisions elements being done to make it a complete Brigade. The Navy is asked to be prepared to escort a possible shipping movement, as it is possible the units will not arrive at the usual ports, depending on the situation in France when they are sent, and it is thought unwise to risk such a valuable cargo without naval protection.
Paris
Prime Minister Churchill has flown in to have discussions with Paul Reynaud. While obviously extremely worried about the situation - the fall of Sedan was a terrible shock to France, he knows Billotte still had a few cards to play, and with Churchill's support decides to at least wait on these. If Billotte fails, he privately feels France is done for, a decision his mistress is doing her best to reinforce.
The French also press Churchill for more support, especially air support which can be involved quickly. The British point out that they are actually flying more sorties to support the Northern armies than the French are, and while they will try and do more to cover Holland and Belgium, surely the powerful French Air Force can do more itself? Churchill also promises more ground forces, although these will take a few weeks to arrive.
In the afternoon, Reynaud has an acrimonious meeting with the French Air Force chief of staff, General Joseph Vuillemin. Reynaud demands that he finds more aircraft to support the Army in the desperate defence of France. Vuillemin seems unworried by the accusations that the Air Force is not doing all it can, explaining that it needs to husband its resources. Reynaud points out acerbically that if the current situation is not the one that the resources have been kept for, then what is? Vuillemin is sent away with the instruction to find more planes immediately, the unspoken addition being that if he can't, someone else will.
England
1st Canadian Division had been glad to recover its 'missing' brigade from Norway a week ago - the brigade has, as had been promised, been replaced by a British territorial brigade - and its commanders had been watching the battles in France with close professional interest. It was hardly surprising when they received orders to ready themselves for a move to France, and to report what they still needed and how soon they could be ready. There was considerable speculation as to exactly where they would end up, things in France right now seemed confused at best, even to army officers with a bit more knowledge that was being covered in the press. The time spent in Norway had often been one of confusion and less-than-clear commands, and Major-General McNaughton was determined that this wouldn't be the case this time.
At Southampton, 48 Scimitar tanks waiting to be loaded onto ships bound for Alexandria are ordered back to Bovington. While they are needed in Egypt, if the situation in France doesn't stabilise soon, they may well be needed closer to home.
The situation in France indicates that replacement tanks will soon be required. The problem is that until the situation stabilises somewhat it's impossible to say where they will need to be send. Accordingly orders are sent to take 100 Sabre and 50 Cutlass tanks from the reserve and prepare them for shipment to Europe, but not to actually load them until the decision on where to send them is made. However as they will be combat replacements, they should be checked mechanically and that they are fully equipped with everything except fuel and ammunition and ready for immediate shipping.
The 1st Canadian Division isn't the only unit being designated for an early trip to France. The 52nd (Lowland) Division is also being readied. Ideally there should also be a tank element, but 2nd Armoured Division is not yet ready, and 2nd Independent Tank Brigade is still being formed. It's not yet clear whether this force will be a new Corps or used as replacement for units who have suffered losses in combat, but after some thought 3rd Armoured Brigade (the first part of 2nd Armoured to be ready) is assigned to the force, some juggling of the new divisions elements being done to make it a complete Brigade. The Navy is asked to be prepared to escort a possible shipping movement, as it is possible the units will not arrive at the usual ports, depending on the situation in France when they are sent, and it is thought unwise to risk such a valuable cargo without naval protection.
Driftless
Donor
I know it would have been an almost impossible situation, but think of the irony of landing a force at Dunkirk, instead of an evacuation...
Valid question is the following: will the butterflies save the Glorious and her two accompanying destroyers
To be honest, part of what looks like sensible precautions is because they have no clear idea of what is happening in France, and are hedging their bets while trying to decide where to send the new troops!
Depends on what happens in France; if it changes the Norwegian evacuation, its very possible.
Still having Glorious around will help a lot and two more DDs can hurt either. Especially since the airwing of Glorious basically wrote the book on what became Operation Judgment in the interwar period
Derek Pullem
Donor
And the allies have assets in place to blunt two of those breakthroughs. We'll see if two panzer divisions in the rear of the allies can last separated from their infantry. Thats a drill that the British in particular have played out in their exercises pre war.
I haven't decided the exact engagement point yet, but it looks like 5/7 Panzer will be about 25 miles out in front when they run into trouble.
Its not like Rommel et al didn't have form in running away from their infantry.
Its going to be similar for 6/8 panzer. 1/2 may be further forward, depends how long they keep going west.
This could well be the time the lack of motorised infantry support becomes a big problem.
Its not like Rommel et al didn't have form in running away from their infantry.
Its going to be similar for 6/8 panzer. 1/2 may be further forward, depends how long they keep going west.
This could well be the time the lack of motorised infantry support becomes a big problem.
16th May 1940 (part 3)
16th May 1940 (part 3)
Sedan
The French 3rd DCR had been intended to attack the German infantry and break through to Sedan, but the Germans also had plans to attack, in their case to force the French back and out of artillery range. Both sides had received infantry reinforcements to help alleviate their losses during yesterdays fierce fighting, and these would again be locked in a bitter battle for possession of the area. The French also had two light cavalry divisions, which while not heavily equipped were rather more mobile that most of the infantry.
The main German attack would be made by the 10th Panzer Division, once the infantry had tied down the French defence and given it an opportunity to break through. After the recent success of 1st and 2nd Panzer in breaking through French infantry formations, it was expected that yet again a breakthrough by the panzers would result in a French collapse
While it had been in operation for days, and had sustained losses, both to enemy action and mechanical failures, 10th Panzer still had the best part of 200 tanks. It was down to only 30 Pz III and 20 Pz IV available for operations, but still had over a hundred Pz I and II. What the Germans didn't realise that the French 3DCR had been organising itself for its own breakthrough. Its preparation has taken longer than originally expected due to having to do most of the work under the cover of darkness, but on the morning of the 16th May it was ready, and did not intend to stop short of Sedan. While half of the division was equipped with the Hotchkiss H39 tank, the other half had 100 of the heavy Char B, a tank specifically designed to break through enemy lines.
The action started soon after dawn, with the German infantry trying to infiltrate into the French defence before they became aware of what was going on. This failed because the French were just about to start their own attack, and both sides became involved in a series of isolated and rather confused actions. The Germans were first to get themselves organised, and started to push forward against a most determined French defence, but even as this started to make progress it was stopped by French artillery fire. The French, while intending to use their artillery to destroy the Sedan crossing, were determined to hold on to the territory they had fought so hard over. Initially the artillery duel was fairly even; the French had more and heavier guns, but while the Luftwaffe attacks were not as destructive as on earlier days, they did disrupt some of the artillery. The problem for the Germans was their lack of shells. Much of the supply was held up in the traffic jams clogging the roads through the Ardennes, and while they had obtained some resupply, after yesterday's action they had to be careful with how profligate they were. The French commander Flavigny had decided there was little point in hoarding his shells, as if the Germans broke through here they would have decisively broken his lines. In view of this, he had ordered the available shell reserves to be sent up to the batteries. He realised that Luftwaffe attacks might affect this, but right now the important thing was speed. So the French artillery started to slowly grind down the German guns with heavy counter-battery fire.
Seeing this, the advance of 10th Panzer was pushed forward. If their own guns couldn't silence the French artillery, then the panzers would do their job for them and roll over it. Unfortunately for 10th Panzer, this meant them advancing into the tanks of 3DCR, who were just about to start their own advance. The combat against the Char B was a terrible shock for the panzer crews. While the H-39 was not really up to handling the Pz III and IV, it was perfectly capable of putting up a good fight against the Pz II. The French tanks had better armour and a more powerful gun, but the Panzers were better handled. This had given them victory in the past, but in this battle there were limited chances to outflank and get behind the French tanks. While the lighter panzers did succeed in discommoding and forcing back the French light armour, at considerable cost to the French, after an hour they had lost 30 Pz II for the destruction of 42 H-39's (although most of the knocked-out tanks on both sides were immobile rather that completely destroyed). Part of the problem for the Panzers was that the nature of the battle limited their options. The French armour just had to drive forward to do its job, clever manoeuvre warfare was of limited use.
The situation between the heavier panzers and the Char B's went far worse for 10th Panzer. While as usual they used their superior mobility and tactics, the near-invulnerability of the massive Char B's meant that most of their shots just bounced off, while the Char B could do serious damage with its 47mm gun, let alone the 75mm howitzer mounted in the hull. For each Char B taken in the rear, or losing its suspension, two panzers fell to the French tanks guns. In that same first hour, while 2DCR had been badly hurt, 10th Panzer was no longer an effective fighting force. The ample and well-used German radios in their tanks did give them a tactical advantage, but the plan 3DCR was working to was simple, and easy to stick to even when radio communication broke down.
By mid-afternoon the German defence was in a bad way. 10th Panzer was falling back, unable to cope with the heavily-armoured Char B's, and as a result so were the infantry. While 3DCR had lost more tanks, partly to the use of 88mm and 105mm guns, as well as to a considerable number of breakdowns, the remainder pressed on, their 75mm howitzers and the ample French artillery reducing each anti-tank trap as it was encountered.
The decisive factor was proving to be the French artillery. While the German guns had only lost lightly to counter-battery fire, they were nearly out of ammunition. The reduction of fire allowed the French to repurpose the guns they'd been using to attempt to suppress their own artillery, started to range on the bridge crossings. As yet they were firing my map, the artillery observers still making their way forward, but this would soon change and the fire would become far more accurate.
It was now obvious to the German commanders that this was a battle lost. With their backs to the Meuse, and the likelihood that French artillery would soon make the crossings unusable, at least for vehicles, there was little chance the resupply they needs to carry on fighting would arrive. The logistics men were doing their best, but the needed supplies wouldn't arrive today. The only sensible decision was to withdraw across the river before their men were trapped and forced to surrender. With expert professionalism, the retreat moved back as slowly as possible, allowing many of the men and vehicles to slip across the river. There were still losses, but in the end most of three infantry divisions and the remaining working tanks of 10th Panzer were withdrawn. None too soon, as even before the advancing 3DCR reached the river, the 155mm guns of the French artillery park had shattered the bridges the Germans had just retreated over. By nightfall the west back was in the hands of the French Army again.
However the victory caused considerable losses to the French. The infantry divisions were exhausted after the days of fighting, and 3DCR had lost a considerable number of tanks. At the moment it could only muster 35 Char B and some 40 H-39's, although there were some disabled tanks that could be repaired. More would have to be sent back to be fixed, so 3DCR was now barely at half strength. The worry now was how long before new German forces attempted the river crossing. The force on the east bank seemed to be mainly infantry formations, but the biggest worry was 1st and 2nd Panzer, which had broken through a few days ago and headed west. It was uncertain if they could hold against two full panzer divisions, so the main effort would be to dig in the troops and guns, and hurry along reinforcements as fast as possible. Despite their tiredness, the morale of the French troops here was high;they had beaten back the Germans, and one of their panzer divisions, and pushed them out of Sedan, a place of historic importance to them.
Sedan
The French 3rd DCR had been intended to attack the German infantry and break through to Sedan, but the Germans also had plans to attack, in their case to force the French back and out of artillery range. Both sides had received infantry reinforcements to help alleviate their losses during yesterdays fierce fighting, and these would again be locked in a bitter battle for possession of the area. The French also had two light cavalry divisions, which while not heavily equipped were rather more mobile that most of the infantry.
The main German attack would be made by the 10th Panzer Division, once the infantry had tied down the French defence and given it an opportunity to break through. After the recent success of 1st and 2nd Panzer in breaking through French infantry formations, it was expected that yet again a breakthrough by the panzers would result in a French collapse
While it had been in operation for days, and had sustained losses, both to enemy action and mechanical failures, 10th Panzer still had the best part of 200 tanks. It was down to only 30 Pz III and 20 Pz IV available for operations, but still had over a hundred Pz I and II. What the Germans didn't realise that the French 3DCR had been organising itself for its own breakthrough. Its preparation has taken longer than originally expected due to having to do most of the work under the cover of darkness, but on the morning of the 16th May it was ready, and did not intend to stop short of Sedan. While half of the division was equipped with the Hotchkiss H39 tank, the other half had 100 of the heavy Char B, a tank specifically designed to break through enemy lines.
The action started soon after dawn, with the German infantry trying to infiltrate into the French defence before they became aware of what was going on. This failed because the French were just about to start their own attack, and both sides became involved in a series of isolated and rather confused actions. The Germans were first to get themselves organised, and started to push forward against a most determined French defence, but even as this started to make progress it was stopped by French artillery fire. The French, while intending to use their artillery to destroy the Sedan crossing, were determined to hold on to the territory they had fought so hard over. Initially the artillery duel was fairly even; the French had more and heavier guns, but while the Luftwaffe attacks were not as destructive as on earlier days, they did disrupt some of the artillery. The problem for the Germans was their lack of shells. Much of the supply was held up in the traffic jams clogging the roads through the Ardennes, and while they had obtained some resupply, after yesterday's action they had to be careful with how profligate they were. The French commander Flavigny had decided there was little point in hoarding his shells, as if the Germans broke through here they would have decisively broken his lines. In view of this, he had ordered the available shell reserves to be sent up to the batteries. He realised that Luftwaffe attacks might affect this, but right now the important thing was speed. So the French artillery started to slowly grind down the German guns with heavy counter-battery fire.
Seeing this, the advance of 10th Panzer was pushed forward. If their own guns couldn't silence the French artillery, then the panzers would do their job for them and roll over it. Unfortunately for 10th Panzer, this meant them advancing into the tanks of 3DCR, who were just about to start their own advance. The combat against the Char B was a terrible shock for the panzer crews. While the H-39 was not really up to handling the Pz III and IV, it was perfectly capable of putting up a good fight against the Pz II. The French tanks had better armour and a more powerful gun, but the Panzers were better handled. This had given them victory in the past, but in this battle there were limited chances to outflank and get behind the French tanks. While the lighter panzers did succeed in discommoding and forcing back the French light armour, at considerable cost to the French, after an hour they had lost 30 Pz II for the destruction of 42 H-39's (although most of the knocked-out tanks on both sides were immobile rather that completely destroyed). Part of the problem for the Panzers was that the nature of the battle limited their options. The French armour just had to drive forward to do its job, clever manoeuvre warfare was of limited use.
The situation between the heavier panzers and the Char B's went far worse for 10th Panzer. While as usual they used their superior mobility and tactics, the near-invulnerability of the massive Char B's meant that most of their shots just bounced off, while the Char B could do serious damage with its 47mm gun, let alone the 75mm howitzer mounted in the hull. For each Char B taken in the rear, or losing its suspension, two panzers fell to the French tanks guns. In that same first hour, while 2DCR had been badly hurt, 10th Panzer was no longer an effective fighting force. The ample and well-used German radios in their tanks did give them a tactical advantage, but the plan 3DCR was working to was simple, and easy to stick to even when radio communication broke down.
By mid-afternoon the German defence was in a bad way. 10th Panzer was falling back, unable to cope with the heavily-armoured Char B's, and as a result so were the infantry. While 3DCR had lost more tanks, partly to the use of 88mm and 105mm guns, as well as to a considerable number of breakdowns, the remainder pressed on, their 75mm howitzers and the ample French artillery reducing each anti-tank trap as it was encountered.
The decisive factor was proving to be the French artillery. While the German guns had only lost lightly to counter-battery fire, they were nearly out of ammunition. The reduction of fire allowed the French to repurpose the guns they'd been using to attempt to suppress their own artillery, started to range on the bridge crossings. As yet they were firing my map, the artillery observers still making their way forward, but this would soon change and the fire would become far more accurate.
It was now obvious to the German commanders that this was a battle lost. With their backs to the Meuse, and the likelihood that French artillery would soon make the crossings unusable, at least for vehicles, there was little chance the resupply they needs to carry on fighting would arrive. The logistics men were doing their best, but the needed supplies wouldn't arrive today. The only sensible decision was to withdraw across the river before their men were trapped and forced to surrender. With expert professionalism, the retreat moved back as slowly as possible, allowing many of the men and vehicles to slip across the river. There were still losses, but in the end most of three infantry divisions and the remaining working tanks of 10th Panzer were withdrawn. None too soon, as even before the advancing 3DCR reached the river, the 155mm guns of the French artillery park had shattered the bridges the Germans had just retreated over. By nightfall the west back was in the hands of the French Army again.
However the victory caused considerable losses to the French. The infantry divisions were exhausted after the days of fighting, and 3DCR had lost a considerable number of tanks. At the moment it could only muster 35 Char B and some 40 H-39's, although there were some disabled tanks that could be repaired. More would have to be sent back to be fixed, so 3DCR was now barely at half strength. The worry now was how long before new German forces attempted the river crossing. The force on the east bank seemed to be mainly infantry formations, but the biggest worry was 1st and 2nd Panzer, which had broken through a few days ago and headed west. It was uncertain if they could hold against two full panzer divisions, so the main effort would be to dig in the troops and guns, and hurry along reinforcements as fast as possible. Despite their tiredness, the morale of the French troops here was high;they had beaten back the Germans, and one of their panzer divisions, and pushed them out of Sedan, a place of historic importance to them.
In OTL this was a very fierce and contested battle. Main difference is the French still havent been driven back as far, so their artillery had intervene, and a more aggressive commander. Also 3DCR are basically doing the sort of role they were designed for, and really the situation doesnt lend itself to tactical genius - the French just have to go forward to get into good artillery range of the crossings, the Germans have to stop them.
(The OTL battle was the Battle of Stonne)
(The OTL battle was the Battle of Stonne)
Really interesting developments. What will Guderian do now?
Well. That changes things. With the Sedan crossings secured, 1 & 2 Panzer have lost their supply lines and are now seriously on the clock before they end up isolated and immobile in enemy territory. The Germans will have to at least consider swinging them North (away from the coast) to reinforce 6 & 8 Panzers' attack and get back into the supply network from Montherme.
I see the French managed to get the "methodical battle" rolling and avoided the OTL tendency for the tanks to outpace the infantry and get isolated. The French artillery could be dominant, but only if it had time to set up, which OTL the Germans rarely gave it.
Random question - what happened to the Grossdeutschland infantry regiment? OTL, they were on the left flank of the bridgehead and took 3 DCR's first attack at Stonne. TTL, I'd expect them to be leading the attack on Bulson.
I see the French managed to get the "methodical battle" rolling and avoided the OTL tendency for the tanks to outpace the infantry and get isolated. The French artillery could be dominant, but only if it had time to set up, which OTL the Germans rarely gave it.
Random question - what happened to the Grossdeutschland infantry regiment? OTL, they were on the left flank of the bridgehead and took 3 DCR's first attack at Stonne. TTL, I'd expect them to be leading the attack on Bulson.
1/2 Panzer aren't completely out of touch yet. The trouble with swinging north is that unless they go further west first, they swing right into the southern edge of 1st and 9th armies...
The obvious thing for them to do is fall back, but Guderian might not like that suggestion.
There will be some interesting discussions within German High Command tomorrow.
The obvious thing for them to do is fall back, but Guderian might not like that suggestion.
There will be some interesting discussions within German High Command tomorrow.
Am I an evil dragon for considering having Guderian keep going west and north to get back, and ending up trapped in a pocket in a small place called Dunkirk? 
They are with the panzers as extra infantry unit.
There are i guess three options , one going towards the sea as planned by living off the land somehow wich probably isnt a great idea . Turning around and timing a attack with another crossing somewhere around sedan and going north to join 6/8th panzer divisons i guess to reeestablish the supply lines and that would also open up the 6/8th to go north to fight the 7th army while the 1/2nd panzers take over the thrust towards the sea or even join them in going north to annihilate the 7th army ?
I think 7th army can probably also cut off the 5/7th panzer bridgehead as the 2nd army just did at sedan but its longterm future is in alot further doubt compared to sedan i think especially if panzers from other thrusts are diverted here for some reason.
Also how far is the 6/8th panzer bridgehead from sedan , cause if the 1/2nd dont counterattack and go north you could try to attack that with the other two dcr-s when they arrive in a few days so that you pinch off all 3 bridgeheads over the meuse.
There are i guess three options , one going towards the sea as planned by living off the land somehow wich probably isnt a great idea . Turning around and timing a attack with another crossing somewhere around sedan and going north to join 6/8th panzer divisons i guess to reeestablish the supply lines and that would also open up the 6/8th to go north to fight the 7th army while the 1/2nd panzers take over the thrust towards the sea or even join them in going north to annihilate the 7th army ?
I think 7th army can probably also cut off the 5/7th panzer bridgehead as the 2nd army just did at sedan but its longterm future is in alot further doubt compared to sedan i think especially if panzers from other thrusts are diverted here for some reason.
Also how far is the 6/8th panzer bridgehead from sedan , cause if the 1/2nd dont counterattack and go north you could try to attack that with the other two dcr-s when they arrive in a few days so that you pinch off all 3 bridgeheads over the meuse.
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Turning north wont hit 7th Army (yet), it will run you into IV Corps and any French units still hanging on there.
They might be better off doing that and fighting their way to link up with XXXXI Corps.