The Army of Jimmu and the Rising Sun (Would the Japanese Wartime Army have close to a billion men?)

So I've been wondering. I always thought an Axis victory is more interesting in the Pacific than anywhere else in Europe. But when I thought more about an Axis victory, I began to wonder, if Japan after they win ww2, and establish the Greater East Co-Prosperity Sphere, would have a military total of 1 billion men. I'm confident Japan would own the Post-War in my opinion, but you can correct me if I'm wrong.

Japan itself
Indonesia, and the East Indies
India
Indochina
Australia
New Zealand
Polynesia, and Pacific Islands
Hawaii
Chile
A bit of Argentina
Peru
Bolivia
California
A bit of Siberia
Mongolia
Oregon, and Washington
British Columbia, and Alaska
Baja California, and the coastline of Mexico
A bit of Brazil with Japanese majorities
(Almost all of China)

(add more if you want)


So would Japan post world war have the population large enough to get more than a billion men in the military after the war?

Discuss
 

Japhy

Banned
One, there is literally no way that the Co Prosperity Sphere gets all or even most of that no matter what the occasional nutter in their regime might hope for. Secondly there is no way that the Japanese ethno-supremacist empire assimilates the necessary populations in their conquered territories or develop the industry to do such.

And that's before one arrives at basic logistics. The entire modern planet Earth couldn't manage a Billion humans under arms right now. Much less could a fascist empire.

And lastly there's no way the Japanese are the biggest winners in an Axis victory war. The US had seventy times the industrial capacity of Japan. Germany, Britain, France and the Soviets are all equally more powerful economically and would be even in defeat.
 
There is not way that Japan can conquer all of these areas. Japan is lucky if it even can win war and keep these territories what it had on 1941. And Japan had very nationalistic regime. It wouldn't accept easily non-Japaneses to its army, at least it wouldn't allow them being officers. And billion men would need lot of logistics and supplies. Not way that any nation can held such army.
 
If we look at today's human population, is it possible to have a military of 1 billion?

What was the total number of people in uniform worldwide, both active and reserve, during the 1940s?

Ah, we had a population of 2.26 billion in 1940. In 1960, the human population was 3.03 billion. In an Axis victory world, the 1960 population should be less than 3.03 billion.
 
So many problems with thus. First and foremost, there is absolutely no need to have a billion men under arms unless you're facing off against another army which has similar or greater numbers under arms. That's basically a total war scenario which wouldn't occur unless you're fighting aliens or something (and aliens invading Earth is basically pure SF since realistically they have no need to invade or could just wipe Earth off the face of the galaxy the way we'd crush an anthill with their superior tech). Second, WWII Japan can't possibly hope to win, since they're up against the United States. The absolute and utter best they can achieve in status quo ante bellum. Maybe with a German victory over the Soviets they can get Vladivostok, Kamchatka, and the rest of Sakhalin. But there won't be much of a co-prosperity sphere in the end, and if they do get it, they'll find themselves dominated by the Chinese in the long run. Third, any army that size would need to have full gender equality to allow women to fill any place they were qualified to. OTL Japan is not a society known for gender equality, and a successful WWII Japan even less so. The same goes for China which would make up the majority of the soldiers.

Basically, it ain't happening.
 
One, there is literally no way that the Co Prosperity Sphere gets all or even most of that no matter what the occasional nutter in their regime might hope for. Secondly there is no way that the Japanese ethno-supremacist empire assimilates the necessary populations in their conquered territories or develop the industry to do such.

And that's before one arrives at basic logistics. The entire modern planet Earth couldn't manage a Billion humans under arms right now. Much less could a fascist empire.

And lastly there's no way the Japanese are the biggest winners in an Axis victory war. The US had seventy times the industrial capacity of Japan. Germany, Britain, France and the Soviets are all equally more powerful economically and would be even in defeat.

Can you tell me which colonies should be removed, or could you show me a map of an Axis victory Japan that you most agree with, so we can analyze the Japanese army after an Axis victory.
 
There is not way that Japan can conquer all of these areas. Japan is lucky if it even can win war and keep these territories what it had on 1941. And Japan had very nationalistic regime. It wouldn't accept easily non-Japaneses to its army, at least it wouldn't allow them being officers. And billion men would need lot of logistics and supplies. Not way that any nation can held such army.

I was thinking about how Japan could globalize the large geography of the nation. I was thinking Japan with a huge economy could then industrialize parts of China, India, Indochina, Siberia, Indonesia, and Australia, New Zealand, and Polynesia. With Railways.

Yes, Japan was very nationalistic, they believed they were the superior Asian race, but if they could use Japanization on her colonies, it may work, unless Japan resorts to Genocide on some of its colonies. Japan might encourage Japanese people to move to the other colonies for better business opportunities, spreading the culture further as well. If there are any other ways Japan could unite her colonies, let me know.
 
So many problems with thus. First and foremost, there is absolutely no need to have a billion men under arms unless you're facing off against another army which has similar or greater numbers under arms. That's basically a total war scenario which wouldn't occur unless you're fighting aliens or something (and aliens invading Earth is basically pure SF since realistically they have no need to invade or could just wipe Earth off the face of the galaxy the way we'd crush an anthill with their superior tech). Second, WWII Japan can't possibly hope to win, since they're up against the United States. The absolute and utter best they can achieve in status quo ante bellum. Maybe with a German victory over the Soviets they can get Vladivostok, Kamchatka, and the rest of Sakhalin. But there won't be much of a co-prosperity sphere in the end, and if they do get it, they'll find themselves dominated by the Chinese in the long run. Third, any army that size would need to have full gender equality to allow women to fill any place they were qualified to. OTL Japan is not a society known for gender equality, and a successful WWII Japan even less so. The same goes for China which would make up the majority of the soldiers.

Basically, it ain't happening.

Sorry if there was confusion, I meant in wartime would Japan have the capacity to bring a billion men into arms, say in a war against the Reich. I'm not saying Japan is winning alone, it's with the help of the other Axis powers of Germany, and Italy. I was thinking Japanization over large populations like India, or China. Maybe they could do Divide and conquer like the Mongols in India, and give the majority Hindus more rights than the Muslim Bengalis, and Pakistanis, giving the Hindus a favorable opinion of the Japanese, and if Japan can lift Indians out of poverty with construction projects like Railroads, then India might stay loyal. I don't know how to get the Chinese to be loyal, but you could come up with something. I could see Japan becoming more Liberal over time though with enough time, especially if they pull a United States of Greater Austria.
 
That's completely crazy. A United Earth right now could not muster a billion men under arms. That's one seventh of the world population. I'm pretty confident having one seventh of your entire population fighting in an army never happened, much less in a modern war where you also need to provide weapons and ammunitions to your soldiers (which also need to be produced - hard when everyone is off fighting). And finally in a Reich victory at best the Japanese crush the Chinese, keep Indonesia and Indochina and maybe take Australia and New Zealand. There's no way they take India or California, and I'm very doubtful about South America as well.
And in everyone of these conquests they will be fighting an extremely bitter decolonization war which they simply can't win. Japanizing even a tiny part of all this is right out, and any progress they end up doing on that front will be reversed anyway as soon as these occupied countries become independant.
 
I could see over a 1 million in a war, but 1 billion? The Chinese Nationalist Army and the Red Army didn't even come close to having that many soldiers mobilized at once during the war.

Not to mention equipping and feeding this military is going to be incredibly difficult, especially after the devastation caused by the war.
 
How you're going to supply and equip a billion men? You don't, not without serious space colonisation to make up the difference. Unless you have an easy way to get loads of material down from space since you probably aren't getting all of it here on Earth and heavily automated factories to process all that in. And don't forget space-based farming too (with lots of automation) to help make sure you get enough food. You also need to get the supplies to them, but since I'm handwaving things by pointing at space as the only solution (I only bring it up since it's pretty much the only way you might somehow make this work), you might as well use land, sea, air, and space to help logistics out--this is actually the easiest part, since we have many examples of how logistics of armies of millions of men work, and there isn't much reason to have more than a few million men in one general area.

Basically, with the level of realism and feasibility we're dealing with here, Japan might as well just be using Gundams (cheaper than arming and feeding a billion men!) instead. Maybe drop one/multiple of those space colonies I keep mentioning onto an enemy city too. Of course, you don't need to crash a space colony into Earth to get the effect of leveling a city and its surrounding. Japan would have ICBMs that do exactly that. And so would their enemy, meaning you don't need a billion man army (and neither do they), since any war can be assumed to end fairly quickly with the majority of the planet dead or dying from nuclear warfare.

Yes, Japan was very nationalistic, they believed they were the superior Asian race, but if they could use Japanization on her colonies, it may work, unless Japan resorts to Genocide on some of its colonies. Japan might encourage Japanese people to move to the other colonies for better business opportunities, spreading the culture further as well. If there are any other ways Japan could unite her colonies, let me know.

All OTL. Lots of Japanese moved to Korea and Manchukuo for both business and colonisation. And it wouldn't be Imperial Japan without some mass murder here and there.

Sorry if there was confusion, I meant in wartime would Japan have the capacity to bring a billion men into arms, say in a war against the Reich. I'm not saying Japan is winning alone, it's with the help of the other Axis powers of Germany, and Italy. I was thinking Japanization over large populations like India, or China. Maybe they could do Divide and conquer like the Mongols in India, and give the majority Hindus more rights than the Muslim Bengalis, and Pakistanis, giving the Hindus a favorable opinion of the Japanese, and if Japan can lift Indians out of poverty with construction projects like Railroads, then India might stay loyal. I don't know how to get the Chinese to be loyal, but you could come up with something. I could see Japan becoming more Liberal over time though with enough time, especially if they pull a United States of Greater Austria.

The British built tons of railroads in India, many of which are still in use today. Didn't stop Indians from demanding the British leave. And any Co-Prosperity Sphere which is liberal and genuinely fair to its members is going to be centered around China before long (even counting Manchukuo and Korea) and any Japanizing idea rendered completely hopeless.

That's completely crazy. A United Earth right now could not muster a billion men under arms. That's one seventh of the world population. I'm pretty confident having one seventh of your entire population fighting in an army never happened, much less in a modern war where you also need to provide weapons and ammunitions to your soldiers (which also need to be produced - hard when everyone is off fighting). And finally in a Reich victory at best the Japanese crush the Chinese, keep Indonesia and Indochina and maybe take Australia and New Zealand. There's no way they take India or California, and I'm very doubtful about South America as well.
And in everyone of these conquests they will be fighting an extremely bitter decolonization war which they simply can't win. Japanizing even a tiny part of all this is right out, and any progress they end up doing on that front will be reversed anyway as soon as these occupied countries become independant.

No, 1/7 of the population under arms has happened, it happened in Paraguay during the War of the Triple Alliance, for instance. Bulgaria's forces during the Balkan Wars/WWI came very close to 1/7 of their population (and about 1/3 of their men!) as did Finland in WWII and probably some other examples I'm mising. More relevantly, Japan themselves were planning on mobilising even more in preparation to defend against Operation Downfall. Granted, the quality of the majority of the units raised in such a manner is very poor from the training to the supplies and weapons.

But if you notice one thing in common with Paraguay, Bulgaria, Finland, and Japan in those years, they mobilised that many people because they were pressed to their limit and up against far stronger opponents with far more resources.
 
That's completely crazy. A United Earth right now could not muster a billion men under arms. That's one seventh of the world population. I'm pretty confident having one seventh of your entire population fighting in an army never happened, much less in a modern war where you also need to provide weapons and ammunitions to your soldiers (which also need to be produced - hard when everyone is off fighting). And finally in a Reich victory at best the Japanese crush the Chinese, keep Indonesia and Indochina and maybe take Australia and New Zealand. There's no way they take India or California, and I'm very doubtful about South America as well.
And in everyone of these conquests they will be fighting an extremely bitter decolonization war which they simply can't win. Japanizing even a tiny part of all this is right out, and any progress they end up doing on that front will be reversed anyway as soon as these occupied countries become independant.

It doesn't have to be 1 billion, the question is, in a war, how much men could Japan bring under Arms. Japanization can work in a lot of places though. Think of how the Chinese people felt when the Qing failed them so many times. In the Opium wars, First Sino-Japanese War, Boxer Rebellion, the Shandong crisis, 21 demands, World war 1, and when given an actual Republic, it failed them too in World war II, while their blundering idiot President acted like a Dictator, fought the communists, and let millions die in the 1938 river flood on purpose to prevent the Japanese invasion.

So Who Cares? China has been humiliated for 100 years, so who cares anymore? If China is united under Japan who cares? At least it's united under a leader who's finally proven they can protect their population, and make good decisions. Was there really any strong nationalism under Pu Yi, or Chiang Kai Shek? China lost so many wars, the strong Japanese culture would be envied by the Chinese unlike there previous weak Chinese culture. Japan defeated Russia in the Russo-Japanese war, and won World war II, and industrialized very successfully. Even Sun Yat Sen said it was a victory for all Asians.
 
It doesn't have to be 1 billion, the question is, in a war, how much men could Japan bring under Arms. Japanization can work in a lot of places though. Think of how the Chinese people felt when the Qing failed them so many times. In the Opium wars, First Sino-Japanese War, Boxer Rebellion, the Shandong crisis, 21 demands, World war 1, and when given an actual Republic, it failed them too in World war II, while their blundering idiot President acted like a Dictator, fought the communists, and let millions die in the 1938 river flood on purpose to prevent the Japanese invasion.

So Who Cares? China has been humiliated for 100 years, so who cares anymore? If China is united under Japan who cares? At least it's united under a leader who's finally proven they can protect their population, and make good decisions. Was there really any strong nationalism under Pu Yi, or Chiang Kai Shek? China lost so many wars, the strong Japanese culture would be envied by the Chinese unlike there previous weak Chinese culture. Japan defeated Russia in the Russo-Japanese war, and won World war II, and industrialized very successfully. Even Sun Yat Sen said it was a victory for all Asians.

Who cares anymore? How about the hundreds of millions of Chinese under the leadership of Japanese puppet rulers? Because once China gets strong enough that it's rulers think they can challenge Japan, they will absolutely try to and they'll demand they be treated as equals in all economic and other relationships with Japan. If Japan refuses, then they'll try their hardest not to mess up Sino-Japanese War Round 3. It isn't like China has endured centuries of foreign rule and rule by incompetents in the past.
 

Japhy

Banned
The Japanese weren't interested in turning the Chinese or anyone else into Japanese people. They didn't even have an interest in protecting them. Just killing and exploiting them because they were FASCISTS.

The Axis powers weren't the ancient Romans. Its actually disturbing at this point to see how little you understand the Fascist worldview on Race in these threads. Please for the love of God, go read any book on the subject.
 
There's a reason the British Empire, which at its peak ruled an empire of about half a billion people, never had 40 million people under arms.

Think a bit about why that might be so.
 
Third, any army that size would need to have full gender equality to allow women to fill any place they were qualified to. OTL Japan is not a society known for gender equality, and a successful WWII Japan even less so. The same goes for China which would make up the majority of the soldiers.
Didn't both the NRA and PLA recruit women in WWII?
 
So I've been wondering. I always thought an Axis victory is more interesting in the Pacific than anywhere else in Europe. But when I thought more about an Axis victory, I began to wonder, if Japan after they win ww2, and establish the Greater East Co-Prosperity Sphere, would have a military total of 1 billion men. I'm confident Japan would own the Post-War in my opinion, but you can correct me if I'm wrong.

Japan itself
Indonesia, and the East Indies
India
Indochina
Australia
New Zealand
Polynesia, and Pacific Islands
Hawaii
Chile
A bit of Argentina
Peru
Bolivia
California
A bit of Siberia
Mongolia
Oregon, and Washington
British Columbia, and Alaska
Baja California, and the coastline of Mexico
A bit of Brazil with Japanese majorities
(Almost all of China)

(add more if you want)


So would Japan post world war have the population large enough to get more than a billion men in the military after the war?

Discuss
You haven't specified a "when" for this number to be attainable, because in 1950 that would mean one more than a third of the world population under arms for a single flag (which is impossible to say the least), and today that would mean having one eighth of the world population under arms for a single flag (which is still ludicrous but less absurd than the previous). I really don't see how Japan could keep its empire together, let alone get to a point where its subject populations are a source of soldiers rather than a source of rebels, so the 1 billion man army thing is just incomprehensible.
 
There's a reason the British Empire, which at its peak ruled an empire of about half a billion people, never had 40 million people under arms.

Think a bit about why that might be so.

This. The moment the japanese troops are outnumbered by the "Foreign" contingents, it ceases to be the Japanese Empire and becomes a network of rebelling nations.
 

nbcman

Donor
The Soviets had about 17% of their population in the military during WW2 which works out to be 1 in 6. So the Japanese would need 6 billion or more total citizens to have a 1 billion person military. Or they could have a military of about 150 million from a population of a billion. But it would be more likely that they would still have less than 100 million in their military even if they managed to have a billion citizens because the Soviets were able to redirect their population from production to the military due to Lend Lease.
 
No, 1/7 of the population under arms has happened, it happened in Paraguay during the War of the Triple Alliance, for instance. Bulgaria's forces during the Balkan Wars/WWI came very close to 1/7 of their population (and about 1/3 of their men!) as did Finland in WWII and probably some other examples I'm mising. More relevantly, Japan themselves were planning on mobilising even more in preparation to defend against Operation Downfall. Granted, the quality of the majority of the units raised in such a manner is very poor from the training to the supplies and weapons.

But if you notice one thing in common with Paraguay, Bulgaria, Finland, and Japan in those years, they mobilised that many people because they were pressed to their limit and up against far stronger opponents with far more resources.

Because the OP seems to have little military sense, I'll add that all of these countries have tiny populations. Certain things do not scale.
 
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