Tank design philosophy by country?

This is one I've wondered about for years.

In an AH U.S. or UK (say), would something like the M4 Medium or Cromwell still obtain? Loading guage and dockyard cranes being equal...

Or would the tanks be radically different?

I wouldn't credit a Tiger from the U.S., but maybe a lighter Panther?

Are there national specifics?

Thoughts?
 
One of the curiosities of UK tank design is the split between infantry and cruiser tanks, although it's not unique if compared with Soviet T26 and BT paths.

A major driver for the UK difference was the feeble engines (Nuffield isn't my favourite person) which meant you could have decent armour or decent speed but not both. The A10 and Valentine showed there was a less divergent path available.

There's also the idea that mgs were sufficient for soft targets [1] which over complicated cruisers and pushed the weight up and that the main gun only really needed to be good against armour. This was based on WW1 evidence it's true but kept way past its use by date by a combination of lack of imagination, lack of money and then Dunkirk-induced lack of everything, followed by catching up as best they could.

So semi-digression over, my 2cents - up to about 1940, UK philosophy was cheapness first and everything else second. Up to about 1944 it was urgency first and everything else second.

The dilettantes [1] who misused reasonable tanks and failed to work together made unimpressive designs look worse than they were and only made the crises worse.

[1] dilettantes because amateurs are keen and genuinely interested in their subjects, whereas dilettantes just do surface gloss and think that's good enough whie looking for something new to catch their interest. These days 'failing upwards' gets used a lot around such people.
 
On dilettantes in Third Reich
Why the Wehrmach got more bigger and heavier tanks during the War.

One was lack of steel refiner, letting low quality armour getting thicker and make Tank heavy.
The other was most famous Dilettant in History: Hitler !
He was obsessed by installing bigger and bigger guns into Tanks , (he even demand that jet Fighter Me262 is equip with 50mm cannon !)

This let that Germans build tanks in lesser numbers, while Soviets mass produce T-34
Also were the Germans Tanks over complicate, while Soviet for simple T-34 used engine and it Gearbox from a Tractor !

Next to that was fuel, German wanted high octane petrol for there Tanks, while Soviets went for Diesel (Tractor Engines)
in 1944 the Wehrmach, Luftwaffe and SS were fighting over Reichs last reserve of Petrol.
while Red Army simply confiscate oil heating, pump the diesel out, into T-34...
 
There are a multitude of factors that influence tank design in a country. Some of those can change with a relatively recent POD, others are owned to long term impacts or unchangeable factors like geographic realities.

Take the German example. Otl WW2 it was cut of from critical ressources, had a numerical disadvantage it could not change (at times they were outproducing their ability to man new vehicles!), their main theatre had relatively open plains, the industry was better at producing quality than quantity. Operational needs and doctrine requirements changed over time. Until the Panther and Tiger I available infrastructure was also a major concern.

That led to the otl design decisions: pre war (and again post war) priority on mobility and crew layout over firepower and protection. Later in the war on the defense crew survivability and long range firepower became higher priorities. Always a desire to have tanks that are able to balance the unavoidable greater enemy numbers. They made mistakes obviously, especially in going for ever heavier tanks, but the fundamental makes sense: a German T-34/M4 spam attempt would have gone even worse given the circumstances.

Now what of that can change?

Manpower depends entirely on the enemy in atl and the timing of a conflict. In a contained war with just say Poland or France, not an issue, especially with a longer build up that allows training peace time reserves. Anything approaching otl ww2 still leaves Germany scrambling for Manpower.

Resources again depend on the type of conflict. Otl at various places they had to use steel in place of aluminium or a suboptimal kind of steel, despite the obvious and known disadvantages. With free access to the world market that may not be necessary to the same extent.

The industrial structures were developed since the 1870s, so with a late POD are difficult to change. Otl the Germans tried to change from their craftsmanship base to a more mass production approach during the war, but it had all kinds of problems (e.g. a massive drop in quality control) and they mostly went back postwar. Now changing the industry is not impossible, but the later the POD the harder it is.

The requirements discovered during a war again depend on the war. Lessons from a war entirely fought in Western Europe will radically differ from a Russian campaign.

That is wartime though. Doctrine wise prewar influences will largely stay the same: German focus with a POD after 1815 will be on a fast war of movement and flexibility of command. Mobile tanks with decent crew comfort for the former, three men turret, good optics and as many radios as possible for the latter. With a POD post Versailles a tendency to push technical limits and tunnelvision in specialisation is also likely: if you can't go into serial production anyway, it makes sense to try for the best design for a specific job possible.

Overall I'd say pre-war doctrine is the main driver for pre-war/early war designs, the industrial side will (beyond the basic budget available) always be secondary: if the French anticipate a repeat of trench warfare and focus on pre-planning down to tactical level, the need for heavy armour will still be dominant, while low-mobility or a single-man turret are not significant drawbacks. If the British still draw a very sharp distinction between Cavalry and infantry tanks, the differences between the two types will persist etc.
 

Wolf1965

Donor
German tank philosophy went roughly in two stages: Before and after Barbarossa. Before the attack on the USSR and several battles that showed how far out of its depth the Panzer III/IV was against the T-34 there was a plan that had two classes: One tank to fight other tanks: Panzer III. One tank to support infantry: Panzer IV till the F2 variant.
There were a couple of differences to the British or the French way of doing things:
- Good communications. Guerdian was originally a communications specialist and he made sure every German tank had a radio
- Mobility: German tanks, especially those supporting infantry, were more mobile than their UK counterpart
- Three-man turret: German tanks had a dedicated commander, gunner and loader whereas other tanks often missed a loader (early T-34) or even both and the commander had to load and shoot the gun on his own, which was not a good idea at all

German tanks were also built around Maybach engines as they were very compact, allowing the tanks to be smaller. They were basically good until they became overwhelmed by very heavy tanks. There was an offer for diesel engines from Daimler-Benz who built such engines for torpedo boats, but Hitler insisted on an air-cooled engine. That was a good idea, most US tanks used such engines till the M1, but caused serious delays.

After Barbarossa the tendency was towards more armor and heavier guns. That was not without reason: The Elephant/Ferdinant tank destroyers racked up a huge and lopsided kill ratio. But it reduced numbers to the point where it became a losing game.
 
This is one I've wondered about for years.

In an AH U.S. or UK (say), would something like the M4 Medium or Cromwell still obtain? Loading guage and dockyard cranes being equal...

Or would the tanks be radically different?

I wouldn't credit a Tiger from the U.S., but maybe a lighter Panther?

Are there national specifics?

Thoughts?
If you want logistics to limit maximum tank characteristics in the same fashion as OTL then you will still have hard caps for certain characteristics, but if you allow alterations to the industry, tooling and the men behind tank specification and development then yes, you can change the design philosophy by country.

Save for these logistical limitations, there are no true national specifics and indeed many countries in WW2 or after did complete 180° in design philosophy without any major changes to the logistical limitations. Another reason the philosophies weren't set in stone is that competing philosophies (and men to support) them did exist in a single country but didn't always have sufficient power to supersede the prevailing philosophy.

The British Cruiser and Infantry classes are a good example of different philosophies coexisting as the factions which supported them were even enough that no class prevailed. It is often misunderstood as a conscious mix of tanks driven by a nebulous "lack of powerful engine"* argument but no, it truly was infighting within the department of Mechanization prewar.

Infantry tanks were the result of the pessimist faction led by Sir Hugh Elles and Director of Mechanization Alexander Davidson who deemed that heavy armor would be needed to fight on a battlefield where antitank weapons were common, and in this regard should really be viewed more as a convergent evolution towards the French interwar philosophy (heavy armor and combined arms with infantry and artillery are needed). The slow speed was rather a result of the Matilda II drawing heavily on A7E3's design features.
Medium tanks and then Cruisers were the result of the radical faction who estimated that armor would quickly lose out and that mobility and firepower were key, and that tank formations could operate independently. Cruisers themselves are more of an arbitrary class created by Martel to describe tanks with a Christie suspension capable of "cruising" at high speed on rough terrain, something that was not possible with other British interwar suspension.

You then have some tanks being arbitrarily included in one or the other class when they were originally designed for another role, like A9 and A10 being originally Mediums and being roled into Cruisers when the classification was simplified even though they didn't meet the characteristics of true Cruisers, or A22 being a Shelled Area/Assault tank being roled into the Infantry class.

The doctrinal explanation is a post-hoc justification for having the government fund both classes at once, and indeed Cruisers operated in formations that were completely separate from those for infantry tanks and the classes didn't cooperate for much of the war even when it was plainly obvious that they would work better in cooperation. So much for the "ideal" mix of tanks.

*
There are many issues with this argument. One is that prior to the Christie suspension (or the Tetrarch-type suspension developped after a meeting between John Carden and Martel), achieving high speeds was already constrained by the suspension more than by the engine itself. Another is that the A14 Medium Tank featured a Thornycroft 500hp engine which was more than capable of taking a tank with decent mobility AND armor. In fact heavier armor than 30mm was sought towards the end of its development in 1938-39. The Liberty itself was fully capable of moving heavier armor at decent speeds as armoring a Crusader to as much as 60mm frontally and 40mm on the sides was still fairly cheap in weight and the bigger constraint was suspension durability and simply a lack of focus on this area.
 
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The America’s size and weight limitations are frequently mentioned as a parameter in their armour design as the tank could expect to travel abroad by ship and be lifted by typical cranes. It is less mentioned for the British but all their deployments were overseas. All across the globe as well as next door. Somewhere buried in the British doctrine has to be limits on weight as well as size. The Germans could expect to drive everywhere by rail and road. The Japanese I cannot comment upon but maybe they had to restrict their tanks by sea transport too, as well as Chinese bridge capacities. The Russians expected to send their tanks every where by rail and that rail used far bigger wagons so you would have to try hard to exceed limits. As to road travel, you have tracks on your tank don’t you? With nice wide , if heavy, links to keep you on top of the mud and snow.
 
The Russians expected to send their tanks every where by rail and that rail used far bigger wagons so you would have to try hard to exceed limits.
Soviet/Russian rail & road networks (and their bridges) have significant weight limitations, which along with the expectation that in a war a lot of bridges in Europe in general will get blasted meant that they have stringent weight limit for their tanks during the cold war (if not before). If anything even Soviet heavy tanks in WWII were on the lighter side (when compared to their german counterparts).
 
The America’s size and weight limitations are frequently mentioned as a parameter in their armour design as the tank could expect to travel abroad by ship and be lifted by typical cranes. It is less mentioned for the British but all their deployments were overseas. All across the globe as well as next door. Somewhere buried in the British doctrine has to be limits on weight as well as size.
Some British tank designs were limited by bridge capacity (must be able to use a 18T rated bridge or whatever), certainly specs would impose limits due to railway loading gauge, but as far as I know crane lifting capacity just wasn't a concern. Because Dock cranes were beefy things that lifted far heavier items, like entire rail locomotives.

Maybe American dock cranes were particularly small so it was a concern for them, but I'd be surprised if it was actually a limiting design issue.
 
This is one I've wondered about for years.

In an AH U.S. or UK (say), would something like the M4 Medium or Cromwell still obtain? Loading guage and dockyard cranes being equal...

Or would the tanks be radically different?

I wouldn't credit a Tiger from the U.S., but maybe a lighter Panther?

Are there national specifics?

Thoughts?
One issue that has puzzled me was the reluctance by at least some nations to issue thin walled lower velocity HE shells with more HE (that in turn would require different gun sights to use effectively.) The 76mm Sherman’s reportedly not having as good an HE shell as the 75 mm Sherman’s is an example.

I recall this was hashed out in a thread several years ago.
 
This is one I've wondered about for years.

In an AH U.S. or UK (say), would something like the M4 Medium or Cromwell still obtain? Loading guage and dockyard cranes being equal...

Or would the tanks be radically different?

I wouldn't credit a Tiger from the U.S., but maybe a lighter Panther?

Are there national specifics?

Thoughts?
The US did produce small numbers of the M6 heavy tank for testing but didn’t proceed with large scale production. I believe there was at least discussion of arming it with a 90mm gun.

Given different circumstances I could envision the US having put more emphasis on heavier tanks.
 
Aren't Soviet Cold War tank designs kept under 50 tons due to the weakness of Soviet infrastructure (I thought I read this in one of the Russo-Ukraine War threads)?
 
There are a multitude of factors that influence tank design in a country.
That was an excellent, thoiuhtful answer. 😎 TYVM.

I'm going to try and reply when I don'r have to use my phone keyboard. (Google Translate doesn't have "gibberish" option.😉 )
 
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