Someone help! Japan's being difficult again...

[papermario]

Okay, three Japanese questions:

1. Is there any good way to get the word Japan in English closer to Nihon/Nippon? It's always bugged me that it's so far off (at least we don't call it Jipang anymore).

2. What did the Japanese call Japan before the Meiji Era? Nippon or Nihon? (I know Meiji Japan was Nippon, and pacifist Japan is Nihon, but before then?)

3. Was there any real chance of Japan being colonized? If so, who could have? (Russia and France come to mind, unless the Dutch and Portuguese were much stronger much earlier.)

 

[maverick]

1. I think the word Japan is an evolution or barstardization of the word Cipango

2. Good question, I'll have to check that.

While I search for a better source, here's a short history behind the name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Japan

3. No, there's a thread about this every month and in every one you'll see me stating how difficult-nigh-impossible this is in the 19th century. You'd need a Russia that's way too strong in the Pacific (at least for everybody else and specially Britain and China's peace of mind) or do something with the Mongols in the 13th century;

 

[mosodake]

Okay, three Japanese questions:

1. Is there any good way to get the word Japan in English closer to Nihon/Nippon? It's always bugged me that it's so far off (at least we don't call it Jipang anymore).

2. What did the Japanese call Japan before the Meiji Era? Nippon or Nihon? (I know Meiji Japan was Nippon, and pacifist Japan is Nihon, but before then?)

3. Was there any real chance of Japan being colonized? If so, who could have? (Russia and France come to mind, unless the Dutch and Portuguese were much stronger much earlier.)

Can't really help on #3, but on #2, the wikipedia page maverick posted is a good source of info. The pronunciation of [p] changes to [ɸ] and then [h] in modern Japanese, so you would probably see Nippon, Nifon, and Nihon at various periods.

For #1, since Japan, Jipang, and Nippon are linguistically related (the onyomi readings for 日本 are based on Tang Chinese pronunciations of the kanji IIRC and Wu, the original language "Japan" came from, retains some of the same pronunciations as Tang Chinese), calling Japan "Japan" really isn't worse than calling India "India". Hokkien has pronunciations slightly closer to Tang (日本 is pronounced jit-pun. The t is unreleased so it sounds somewhat like the geminate p in Nippon), so if the first Europeans heard of Japan through Fujian or Taiwan, the name we use today may be slightly closer.

 

[papermario]

Can't really help on #3, but on #2, the wikipedia page maverick posted is a good source of info. The pronunciation of [p] changes to [ɸ] and then [h] in modern Japanese, so you would probably see Nippon, Nifon, and Nihon at various periods.

For #1, since Japan, Jipang, and Nippon are linguistically related (the onyomi readings for 日本 are based on Tang Chinese pronunciations of the kanji IIRC and Wu, the original language "Japan" came from, retains some of the same pronunciations as Tang Chinese), calling Japan "Japan" really isn't worse than calling India "India". Hokkien has pronunciations slightly closer to Tang (日本 is pronounced jit-pun. The t is unreleased so it sounds somewhat like the geminate p in Nippon), so if the first Europeans heard of Japan through Fujian or Taiwan, the name we use today may be slightly closer.

I know it doesn't really matter what it's called in English, I just randomly wondered. On the note about Nifon, that can't happen-only fu exists in Japanese (though foreign words can be transcribed with fo). Thanks for the Taiwan/Fujian tip.

On a more general note, I was pretty sure Japan was hopeless (too strong and stable), I just wanted to check.

Anyone think the Meiji Restoration could have been stopped or delayed? Could Japan have remained isolationist any longer or was the call for modernization too strong? I'm about to read about Yukichi Fukuzawa, but I'm too impatient.

 

[mosodake]

I know it doesn't really matter what it's called in English, I just randomly wondered. On the note about Nifon, that can't happen-only fu exists in Japanese (though foreign words can be transcribed with fo). Thanks for the Taiwan/Fujian tip.

You're welcome. The "f" sound persisted in Japanese until the 17th century. It's a good couple centuries before the Meiji though. I'm not sure if "f" had totally changed to "h" by the Meiji.

 

[Keenir]

If Japan has to be colonised, it either has to be very very gradually with a lot of European contact that somehow avoids a sakkoku sort of situation occurring, or Japan utterly ruining herself through disease/civil conflict and a power coming in through the north (i.e. Hokkaido, which until the Meiji restoration was largely populated by Ainu in its own northern half).

if I may ask, what was that?

 

[maverick]

Anyone think the Meiji Restoration could have been stopped or delayed? Could Japan have remained isolationist any longer or was the call for modernization too strong? I'm about to read about Yukichi Fukuzawa, but I'm too impatient.

Those are two very different questions, as the Shogunate was the one that started modernizing Japan, so if the Meiji Restoration of 1868 is avoided, the Tokugawa Shogun will modernize just the same.