Social Conditions for *Kemalism

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
By Kemalism, I mean a secular republican-nationalism ideology based around reforming the nation after defeat/collapse and making sweeping changes including to the writing system.

Where else did social conditions in the 20th or (given some butterflies ensuring their survival/not-being colonized) the late-19th could have permitted it?
 
Godot

Godot

I'd presume any alt-Kemalism (see also the post-Civil War but pre-Cultural Rev language reforms in China) would require similar circumstances, if even just the broad strokes -

* A country or society placing a heavy emphasis on traditionalism
* Contact with outside influences that then seek to take advantage of the perceived backwardness of the closed society
* Radical social, military, diplomatic, and/or economic upheaval with or against those outside influences, permitting the subsequent government to have the political capital to enact sweeping changes

I guess the alternate route would be a Meiji situation, which would have many of the many of the same characteristics but more of an internal emphasis.
 

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
Godot said:
I'd presume any alt-Kemalism (see also the post-Civil War but pre-Cultural Rev language reforms in China) would require similar circumstances, if even just the broad strokes -

* A country or society placing a heavy emphasis on traditionalism
* Contact with outside influences that then seek to take advantage of the perceived backwardness of the closed society
* Radical social, military, diplomatic, and/or economic upheaval with or against those outside influences, permitting the subsequent government to have the political capital to enact sweeping changes

I guess the alternate route would be a Meiji situation, which would have many of the many of the same characteristics but more of an internal emphasis.
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Great summary but where else would be suitable- China comes to mind?
 

Leonidas

I’m no expert on Kemalism, but the “six arrows” of the ideology are as follows:
  • Republicanism
  • Populism
  • Nationalism
  • Laicism
  • Statism
  • Reformism
Based on this, I think you would need the country in question to lack a strong national identity or centralized government, and the comparison would be helped by other factors like the previous regime’s traditionalism, clerical interference in politics, and lack of modernization.
 

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
Leonidas said:
I’m no expert on Kemalism, but the “six arrows” of the ideology are as follows:
  • Republicanism
  • Populism
  • Nationalism
  • Laicism
  • Statism
  • Reformism
Based on this, I think you would need the country in question to lack a strong national identity or centralized government, and the comparison would be helped by other factors like the previous regime’s traditionalism, clerical interference in politics, and lack of modernization.
Click to expand...
Iran, Afghanistan?
 
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The Banker

Iran is literally perfect for a future 'Kemal pasha' to take power
but another country is Pakistan

Afghanistan won't have a Kemal for many reasons
 
thezerech

thezerech

Kemalism was tried many times in other countries, it inspired a lot of disparate movements and regimes. To what extent have attempts to replicate Kemalism succeeded? I don't think many have, even Turkey itself has dropped far away from Kemalist values. Ataturk would probably have supporter the military coup against Erdogan. Iran and Pakistan are examples, but to some extent I think Ba'athism and other Arab movements were also inspired by Kemalism, even if they might not want to openly admit it and indeed have some major differences.

A KMT ruled China is an interesting version. I think ideologically Sun Yat-Sen and to a lesser degree Chiang Kai-Shek were quite similar, modernization and westernization were to go hand in hand. There was a planned transition to Western style democracy after a period of dictatorship, etc. I don't know if the KMT would go as far as laicism, but they were definitely a secular party.
 
Fearless Leader

Fearless Leader

Donor
I've also seen it argued that Libya should be considered an offshoot of Kemalism/Sun-Yat Sen's teachings (the two were very similar!)

I also wonder if Hungary could have taken this route had Bela Kun pursued more reasonable territorial goals in the aftermath of the revolution...
 

prani

Banned
walmart said:
Jinnah
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We really did not know what exactly he wanted, he used to say something to one set of people in the morning, said something that was totally opposite in the afternoon and in the evening he would say something that would contradict both and we have reasons to believe that in private he believed something else altogether.
 

walmart

prani said:
We really did not know what exactly he wanted, he used to say something to one set of people in the morning, said something that was totally opposite in the afternoon and in the evening he would say something that would contradict both and we have reasons to believe that in private he believed something else altogether.
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He didn’t ? From my understanding, he was pretty clear that he wanted Pakistan to be a South Asian version of Turkey.
 

prani

Banned
walmart said:
He didn’t ? From my understanding, he was pretty clear that he wanted Pakistan to be a South Asian version of Turkey.
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Yeah he not only changed his views based on time and audience but also on language, Pakistanis themselves question was Jinnah a secular? Or was he a ruthless opportunistic person
 
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