Seven Days to the River Rhine: the Third World War - a TL

It is unclear to me how the Soviets could convince themselves they could take out US SSBN’s at sea and bombers on airborne alert even if their plans work perfectly

Yeah, this is a point that could stand a little developing.

To be sure, the kind of men we are talking about here - I mean, just working from what we know of them in actual history - were capable of some remarkable levels of self-deception in a way not even true of Brezhnev or Andropov. But even they had to appreciate that the US nuclear deterrent was predominantly submarine based at this point, and U.S capabilities in this realm were still about a generation ahead of the Soviets when it came to things like passive sonar and noise suppression, to say nothing of SLBM reliability and accuracy. Soviet RORSAT birds were still very limited in their ability to detect subs at sea. The Soviets might get lucky killing a couple of the older U.S. SSBN's. But as the saying went in those days, "God might be able to find an Ohio, but He will have to have a good day."

Perhaps . . . @Onkel Willie is thinking that the Gang of Eight has decided that they can sustain a major U.S. SSBN strike and still come out ahead, somehow. I don't know.
 
Probably Gang of Eight were only just senile and old disillusioned men like some people in modern Kremlin. Some are just good to believe that they can win a war even if all of rational people tell that it is not possible to survive from war.
 
Following up on my B-52 query:



This is another good point. The AGM-86B ALCM was basically the primary weapon of the B52-H by 1983. I think most of the B-52 action is going to be of the stand-off variety. This would point to a higher survival rate for SAC's bomber force than Onkle Willie posits, though given how many of their air bases have been glassed, this may end up being of theoretical curiosity: Even if the ones without a base find somewhere to land (and many will), these bombers are basically out of the war, since they can't rearm for a good long while!

As with the mis-quantification of the B-52 force, I do not think this changes the timeline save in details. Though I do agree with the sense of some other posters that the U.S. and NATO are generally a bit nerfed in this timeline, particularly in the initial conventional phase.
I thought at least some of the B52's had the ability to carry mixed loads of ALCM's (externally) and SRAM's and gravity bombs internally in 1983, plus as far as I know the FB111 force never carried ALCM's. I believe a typical early 1980's B52 internal load was 8 SRAM's on a rotary launcher and 4 megaton class gravity bombs (or maybe a single multi megaton class bomb as an option..) I believe the original intent of the ALCM program was for the ALCM's to be carried by the same rotary launcher that carried SRAM's but the air force wanted a longer range ALCM and the longer range ALCM that was adopted wouldn't fit on the SRAM launcher so they were carried externally at first.

I believe at some point the B52H's at least got a common strategic rotary launcher that could carry both AGM86's or SRAM's (and perhaps gravity bombs' as well ?)

My understanding was dropping gravity bombs was still seen as a role for at least some of the B52 force until well after the end of the cold war.

I'll let some one else who is more motivated than me drill into these details if they so desire.

It doesn't seem entirely out of the question to me that during the conventional phase of the war SAC might have loaded more or less everything they had that went bang on to more or less everything they had that could fly and launch or drop things that went bang, but who knows what might have actually happened.
 
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Or maybe that Reagan will freeze up and not order a counterstrike in time.
Even if that were to happen, many of the forces that could launch the counter strike would still exist for quite some time and the means of contacting them would likely be available for some time as well. If the attack had killed Reagan some one else would presumably have been in charge, or Reagan might change his mind later on ? It is un clear to me what else the gang of 8 could offer to the US or threaten to inflict on the US after the attack outlined in this thread to get them to change their minds ? (Maybe an offer of unconditional surrender on the part of the Soviets ? but that seems unlikely ?)


In any event the UK, French and PRC strikes would likely inflict massive damage to the Soviet Union on their own. (Especially if perhaps there had been an understanding between at least 2 of those 3 nations in terms of which one would overwhelm the Moscow ABM systems and which one would hit every thing else, or maybe some other arrangements were worked out to avoid the UK, France and perhaps the PRC each trying to completely overwhelm the Moscow ABM systems (I'm un sure if the PRC had enough missiles that could reach Moscow in 1983 for that to be a viable tactic for them.)
 
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Chapter XI: Post-War Depression, 1985-1986.
Time for the story to continue.


Chapter XI: Post-War Depression, 1985-1986.

In the aftermath of the war, the global economy was hit by the worst depression in recorded history. The disappearance of two of the three largest economies – the United States and the Soviet Union – and of the world’s leading currency, the US dollar, had a devastating impact. Japan, the second largest economy in the world prior to the war, was in survival mode with large scale nationalizations to prevent entire industries from collapsing while food had to be strictly rationed. Countries relying on exports to the former markets of the US, Europe and the USSR were hard hit as they were stuck with surpluses that were nearly unsellable as remaining Latin American, African and Asian countries had little interest. Other countries depended on imports from said economies and faced scarcity in all kinds of sectors, which threatened to collapse. Engaging in debt spending was virtually impossible as there weren’t a whole lot of creditors left to borrow money from (the only upside was that many countries saw their debts evaporate as their creditors no longer existed).

The economic shock of the 1980s Global Depression was unprecedented. The worldwide global domestic product (GDP) fell by 35%. Devastating effects were seen in both rich and poor countries with falling personal income, prices, tax revenues, and profits. International trade fell by more than 75%, unemployment in a number of countries rose as high as 40% and the level of upheaval that that caused was immense, requiring authoritarian steps to maintain order. Cities around the world were hit hard, especially those dependent on any kind of industry aimed at export toward the former Western and Eastern Blocs. Construction was virtually halted in many countries. Farming communities and rural areas suffered because of crop failures or because crops and livestock had to be destroyed because of fallout. Faced with plummeting demand and few job alternatives, all sectors of the economy endured hardship and a number disappeared or transformed.

The economic crisis led to the quick death of neoliberalism, as introduced by Reagan and Thatcher at the beginning of the decade, because stringent government direction of and control over the economy was required to prevent total collapse. In most countries, military and police were made responsible for food distribution to the hundreds of millions of people bereft of essentials like water, food, a roof over their heads and a salary. Healthcare was nationalized in many countries to make sure at least basic medicine remained available. Beyond that, entire industries were nationalized and restructured to meet the needs of the post-war economy. In a number of countries, employees of these state-owned enterprises were paid in food ration cards while the issue of “rent” was taken care of by the nationalization of large amounts of privately owned tenements, turning them into public housing. Energy had to be conserved, so quite a number of countries introduced “rolling blackouts” to reduce the use of oil, natural gas and coal. Oil was expensive anyway as the USSR, one of the largest oil exporters before the war, now no longer exported anything. Many countries had to ration oil for private car owners. Needless to say, it was challenging for democracies to survive, especially in countries without a long established democratic tradition.

In June 1986, a summit took place in the Australian city of Sydney. It was attended by the leaders of the ten largest surviving economies, the so-called G10: Australia, Brazil, China, India, Israel, New Zealand, South Africa, Sweden, Switzerland and Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia had suffered from fallout and food shortages, but the Yugoslav military had maintained order and had fiercely guarded the border against refugees. Defending Yugoslavia against the big bad outside world had actually helped forge some sense of unity among the Slovenes, Croats, Bosnians, Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians and Kosovars. It was the same for Switzerland, which had mobilized its army and had built a network of walls and fences to keep people out. Like other surviving European countries, they too had to ration food and medicine (though the mountains luckily shielded them from most of the fallout). Sweden by contrast cooperated with Finland and the Baltic states, trying to offer what little help they could to Norway and Denmark. These countries were the guardians of European civilization and technology.

Australia was chosen because law and order there were still firmly being upheld by largely undamaged military and police forces, enforcing martial law and controlling a “siege economy”. These servicemen enforced curfews wherever order was at risk and quarantined communities if plague or smallpox outbreaks were detected, sometimes going so far as to issue “stay at home” orders. Such “stay at home” orders in “quarantined communities” meant people were only allowed to leave their homes for work, groceries and to walk their dogs whilst barring them from receiving visitors other than first degree relatives and romantic partners not living under the same roof. In these areas a general midnight to six o’clock in the morning curfew was enforced. Australia kept out the epidemics that had such a devastating effect in Eurasia and much of sub-Saharan Africa this way. People proved compliant as they’d been warned of the harmful UV rays resulting from the depletion of the ozone layer and of the dangers of the ongoing epidemics. Horrific images came into Australian living rooms through TV and nobody wanted it to happen here.

Another feature that made Australia so safe was that, other than Adelaide, none of its major cities had been hit because the Soviets had seen Oceania as a low-priority region for nuclear targets. Some intelligence and joint defence installations had been hit by bombs in the lower hundreds of kilotons range, but that didn’t affect any of the main Australian cities such as Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney and Perth significantly. Additionally, Australia defended its coasts fiercely, enforcing an admittedly xenophobic policy on refugees. Australia, and neighbouring New Zealand, were republics by now as they had quit the Commonwealth.

The G10 Sydney Summit would prove to be the beginning of the emergence of the new early 1990s global economic equilibrium. The major hurdle to economic recovery was that debt spending was extremely difficult as the money that could be borrowed from banks and private actors, great or small, in the southern hemisphere wasn’t going to cut it by a long shot. Based on the controversial doctrine of Modern Monetary Theory these ten countries dictated a transition from a debt economy to a money printing economy (which would’ve resulted in hyperinflation under normal circumstances).

Modern Monetary Theory argues, in short, that a government can finance any budget deficit by de facto monetization and hence have no monetary limits. In the event of a genuine national emergency like nuclear war, the government spends first, the central bank assists, and the mess is sorted out when the emergency is over. The issue of inflation was dealt with through raised interests and higher taxes to reduce the private sector’s ability to spend money. These ten countries had a reduced but still sufficient economic base consisting of enough natural resources, a more than sufficient industrial base and plenty of human capital to internationally enforce their newly minted currencies (and of course military and diplomatic power) in exchange for the goods and services, machinery and talent that was required for development. The G10 agreed to proceed on this course despite the fact that this pissed off many Third World countries who had to accept this devalued money and denounced this practice as “economic imperialism”. It worked though: after almost a decade of depression, the global economy finally stabilized around 1992.

While some countries sought to mitigate the crisis, others sought to benefit from it and Iraq was one of those. Up until 1983, Iraq had been embroiled in the ongoing Iran-Iraq War, which had begun with an opportunistic invasion ordered by Saddam Hussein in the hopes of benefiting from any instability resulting from the Iranian Revolution. The goal was to annex the oil rich and majority Arab province of Khuzestan. This war, however, had initially proven a miscalculation by Saddam because the Iranian people rallied around the flag, organizing such stiff military resistance that that the Iraqis had gotten bogged down and feared they might even be defeated.

After WW III had come and gone, the Iran-Iraq War took a different direction as Iran was flooded by millions of refugees from the former Caucasian and Central Asian Republics of the Soviet Union (they couldn’t go to Afghanistan as the provisional government under Ahmad Shah Massoud, formed after the Soviet Army had left, had nothing to help them with). Fighting the war and seeing to the humanitarian needs of these refugees was practically impossible and there were too many to just force them back, which would’ve required pulling forces from the frontlines that the army couldn’t spare. Moreover, outbreaks of plague erupted in cities in northern Iran as the illness came in with the refugees. Long story short, Iran saw itself forced to end the war with a negotiated peace that saw Iraq annex Khuzestan in 1985.

Rather than being content, Saddam had become much more ambitious and already had a new war in mind. He now intended to benefit from the complete collapse of Soviet oil exports and the resulting high demand by cornering Middle Eastern oil production. He used the failure of negotiations to have Iraqi debts forgiven by Kuwait and Saudi Arabia as a pretext, accusing both countries of betraying their “Arab brethren” who had fought for them to prevent an Iranian hegemony over the Middle East. Over the course of 1986, relations soured as Saddam declared the ambassadors of both countries persona non grata.

In the summer of 1986, rhetoric got even more bellicose when Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz issued a statement that Kuwait was historically part of Iraq. The flimsy argumentation was that Kuwait had been part of the Ottoman Basra Vilayet, which had become part of Iraq upon the Ottoman Empire’s disintegration following the First World War. They even pointed out that during the 1930s a popular movement had existed that favoured the reunification of both countries, but of course neglected to mention that fifty years later Kuwaitis had a different opinion of their aggressive, militaristic northern neighbour. Iraq, however, continued to claim Kuwait was nothing but an imperialist British creation. Besides that the issue of Iraqi debts to Kuwait relating to the Iran-Iraq War remained and Iraq now began accusing Kuwait of stealing oil by allegedly slant drilling into the Rumaila Oil Field.
 
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Truly Saddam will now show himself as worthy of the title as the son of Nebuchadnezzar II, bringing a new glorious age of modern Babylon...
Healthcare was nationalized in many countries to make sure at least basic medicine remained available. Beyond that, entire industries were nationalized and restructured to meet the needs of the post-war economy. In a number of countries, employees of these state-owned enterprises were paid in food ration cards while the issue of “rent” was taken care of by the nationalization of large amounts of privately owned tenements, turning them into public housing.
So in a sense, communism/socialism has won the ideological war, much like the Nazis winning from beyond the grave in AANW...
 
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Does the US (and to a likely lesser extent, USSR) still have second stroke capabilities? I know an earlier post mentioned 3 US SSBNs being kept in reserve and I have to think that would be more than enough to give the US a seat at the post war table.

From a very realpolitik point of view, the US could simply say to the remaining top 10 economies - “gosh, wouldn’t it be a shame if something happened to those economies?”

Sure, that would make the US a pariah state, but then again, isn’t the US probably already considered as such?

I get that the focus is certainly on survival and rebuilding, but any country with 3 undetectable SSBNs with (IIRC) 18 MIRVd SLBMs each is going to remain a major player in this environment.

There’s also the carrot and stick approach - the US could literally give one to Australia, a traditional ally, in exchange for full support from Australia.

IDK, maybe I am going too deep here, just sharing my thoughts.
 
Does the US (and to a likely lesser extent, USSR) still have second stroke capabilities? I know an earlier post mentioned 3 US SSBNs being kept in reserve and I have to think that would be more than enough to give the US a seat at the post war table.

From a very realpolitik point of view, the US could simply say to the remaining top 10 economies - “gosh, wouldn’t it be a shame if something happened to those economies?”

Sure, that would make the US a pariah state, but then again, isn’t the US probably already considered as such?

I get that the focus is certainly on survival and rebuilding, but any country with 3 undetectable SSBNs with (IIRC) 18 MIRVd SLBMs each is going to remain a major player in this environment.

There’s also the carrot and stick approach - the US could literally give one to Australia, a traditional ally, in exchange for full support from Australia.

IDK, maybe I am going too deep here, just sharing my thoughts.
The ability of the US (and perhaps the USSR if they still have any forces left) to sustain viable second strike forces with global reach for years after a full scale nuclear exchange might be questionable ?

That being said I suspect some form of residual nuclear capability would likely exist for the USA and probably the USSR, but how useable it might be after many years seems questionable.

I like to think that such weapons would be kept in reserve for defending what was left of their home lands.
 
Does the US (and to a likely lesser extent, USSR) still have second stroke capabilities? I know an earlier post mentioned 3 US SSBNs being kept in reserve and I have to think that would be more than enough to give the US a seat at the post war table.

From a very realpolitik point of view, the US could simply say to the remaining top 10 economies - “gosh, wouldn’t it be a shame if something happened to those economies?”

Sure, that would make the US a pariah state, but then again, isn’t the US probably already considered as such?

I get that the focus is certainly on survival and rebuilding, but any country with 3 undetectable SSBNs with (IIRC) 18 MIRVd SLBMs each is going to remain a major player in this environment.

There’s also the carrot and stick approach - the US could literally give one to Australia, a traditional ally, in exchange for full support from Australia.

IDK, maybe I am going too deep here, just sharing my thoughts.
Plus the remaining US GDP from Oklahoma, Kentucky, etc is still probably enough to get onto the top 10 list.
 
Imagine a group of Soviet military advisors stationed somewhere in the Middle East or Africa trying in vain to contact Moscow by radio. "Come in, Moscow. Come in, Moscow" they would say. Instead, all they get is static or dead silence. The silence would be deafening.
 
Curious to see places like New Zealand in the top10 list instead of Argentina and Mexico. These two had all kinds of natural resources and a significant industrial base. In the case of Argentina, it was still richer per capita than Brazil by far, for example, and its debts would be wiped out. Even Venezuela should be here, as it was a reliable and wealthy oil exporter, that would supply the entire Western Hemisphere.
 
Curious to see places like New Zealand in the top10 list instead of Argentina and Mexico. These two had all kinds of natural resources and a significant industrial base. In the case of Argentina, it was still richer per capita than Brazil by far, for example, and its debts would be wiped out. Even Venezuela should be here, as it was a reliable and wealthy oil exporter, that would supply the entire Western Hemisphere.
Argentina's economy was under the weather at the time, so I suppose is even worse here.
 
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