Rumsfeld gets his way on Iraq

Brig. Gen. Mark Scheid former head of the Army Transportation Corps laid out Rumsfeld plan for Iraq which included no long term occupation of the country which he believed would be unpopular.

Army General: Rumsfeld threatened to fire anyone who tried to plan ahead on Iraq

FORT EUSTIS, Va. - Long before the United States invaded Iraq in 2003, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld forbade military strategists to develop plans for securing a post-war Iraq, the retiring commander of the Army Transportation Corps said Thursday. In fact, said Brig. Gen. Mark Scheid, Rumsfeld said "he would fire the next person" who talked about the need for a post-war plan.

"The secretary of defense continued to push on us that everything we write in our plan has to be the idea that we are going to go in, we're going to take out the regime, and then we're going to leave," Scheid said. "We won't stay."

Scheid said the planners continued to try "to write what was called Phase 4," or the piece of the plan that included post-invasion operations like security, stability and reconstruction. Even if the troops didn't stay, "at least we have to plan for it," Scheid said. "I remember the secretary of defense saying that he would fire the next person that said that," Scheid said. "We would not do planning for Phase 4 operations, which would require all those additional troops that people talk about today.

"He said we will not do that because the American public will not back us if they think we are going over there for a long war." Why did Rumsfeld think that? Scheid doesn't know.

"But think back to those times. We had done Bosnia. We said we were going into Bosnia and stop the fighting and come right out. And we stayed."Was Rumsfeld right or wrong? Scheid said he doesn't know. "In his own mind he thought we could go in and fight and take out the regime and come out. But a lot of us planners were having a real hard time with it because we were also thinking we can't do this. Once you tear up a country you have to stay and rebuild it. It was very challenging."

http://www.wincoast.com/forum/showthread.php?40389-Army-General-Rumsfeld-threatened-to-fire-anyone-who-tried-to-plan-ahead-on-Iraq

The problem is many others in the administration including the President after the war wanted to establish democracy in Iraq and they weren't about to support a total pull out.

Iran and al-Qaeda certainly took advantage of security vacuum provided by the lack of Iraqi and U.S. troops in 2003 and 2004 as well as the lack of a post war plan by the Pentagon. Their militias were defeated, but only after Rumsfeld and the generals he put in place were replaced in 2006.

Lets say Rumsfeld did get his way and all U.S. troops except perhaps a very small handful were out by 2004.
 
I don't know that Rummy wanted to pull out at all but if that was the case and he got his way, I'm guessing a civil war, like what we saw in 2006-07 but much much worse, Iran in 2004 was under reformist Khatami who wouldn't want to be a part of the war in Iraq, but a hawk (maybe Ahmadinejad himself) will likely win the election in 2005 and take a more active role, Kurdistan would likely go its own way, though if they go to far Turkey will ride over the border and crush them which would piss off the USA greatly.
 
I don't know that Rummy wanted to pull out

He did big time, he had no interest in bringing democracy or stabilizing Iraq. He wanted to take out Saddam and then leave. He fought contantly up until he was fired in 2006 to lower troop levels.
 
He did big time, he had no interest in bringing democracy or stabilizing Iraq. He wanted to take out Saddam and then leave. He fought contantly up until he was fired in 2006 to lower troop levels.

there was a reason I didn't go into it, I didn't want to drag the thread into a fight over Rummy, see above for my thoughts on the POD.
 
Major civil war, with no Coalition forces to try to maintain order. Sunni and Shi'as go for each other's throats, the ex-Baathist forces splitting up along religious/ethnic lines.

As the situation turns into a full-fledged civil war, with oil prices skyrocketing amidst fears of either the trouble oozing over Saudi/Kuwaiti borders or Iran intervening, the White House is forced to dust off the occupation plans that Rumsfeld managed to shelve.
 
I think Black Angel was proposing that the "civil war" in Iraq would lead to another attempt to attack America by a disparate group (known or a known unknown or an unkown unknown :confused:) not that Iraq was in any way responsible for 9/11 in the first place.
 
The Sunni population of Iraq would be on the verge of destruction, probably pushing them towards foreign jihadis like Al Qaeda. A long-term civil war, possibly spilling into neighbouring countries like Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
 
I don't know if there would be a serious civil war. If you are following the Rumsfeld model, you pick some competent authoritarian and group of authoritarians and you put them in charge. Of course, this could always be bungled . . .

If there is a civil war, I expect lots of horrors on the nightly news as the grisly Iraq war plays out in real time -- but this makes surprisingly little difference to the American people--the 2006 election is still a Democratic lean but significantly less so than in OTL.

In TTL, Democrats are in favor of nation-building and Republicans spin scenarios about how staying in Iraq would have been even worse, and, anyway, no one could have predicted the civil war that happened.

The current revolutionary wave around the Middle East may not have happened.
 
I wasn't aware that Iraq had attacked America or are you suggesting that Iraq was responsible for 11 September?

no I wasn't, I was saying that a bloody civil war in Iraq (like in OTL) would lead to a lot of anti-American feeling and unlike in OTL there are no Americans in Iraq to take that anger out on, so we might see Al-Qaeda in Iraq working on Attacking Americans in the middle east maybe they attack the US mainland.
 
no I wasn't, I was saying that a bloody civil war in Iraq (like in OTL) would lead to a lot of anti-American feeling and unlike in OTL there are no Americans in Iraq to take that anger out on, so we might see Al-Qaeda in Iraq working on Attacking Americans in the middle east maybe they attack the US mainland.

So, you think no American involvement in Iraq would lead to even greater anti-American feelings amongst Muslims, particularly supporters of al Q'aeda?

You don't think that the lack of US presence might have prevented al Q'aeda in Iraq from becoming as strong as it did?

You also don't think that the lack of an ongoing US presence might have made resentment against the US and its policies less focused rather than more?
 
So, you think no American involvement in Iraq would lead to even greater anti-American feelings amongst Muslims, particularly supporters of al Q'aeda?

I do, you purposely destabilize a nation by destroying its infrastructure and toppling a government; you are asking for a massive power vacuum that anyone who can speak loud enough and have the balls to back it up will be in charge. I would predict a balkanized Iraq, with a number of religious and ethnic borders. Say what you will about Saddam, he might have been a dictator that brutilized his people, but he did prevent ethnic strife.

You don't think that the lack of US presence might have prevented al Q'aeda in Iraq from becoming as strong as it did?

I believe if the U.S. government went in made a mess and then left, based on my above reply, if Al Qaeda is imbedded in certain towns, they could esily recruit citizens who are upset at the fact that U.S. troops demolished their home, village, school etc.

You also don't think that the lack of an ongoing US presence might have made resentment against the US and its policies less focused rather than more?

You have two extremes, doing nothing would have caused middle eastern turmoil that would have made Bosnia look pleasant however the other extreme is what we're doing right now. You have the U.S. military so deeply involved in the redevelopment of Iraq that when we pull out and if the Iraqi government falls twenty years later, they will be writing defeat/loss under the war's name for the outcome.

What we should have done is find a happy medium and have a true coalition invade Iraq, not just the U.S./Britain with international cheerleaders. We needed equal involvement and equal claim. Then once the invasion was complete, have the United Nations take over and start with the nation building. U.S. troops are not meant to be acting as teachers, lawyers, construction workers; it is a serious misallocation of military resources.
 
Rumsfeld may have sincerely believed that the USA could rush in, take out Hussein, and then leave immediately. We certainly could have done that. The question is, would that have been an even worse situation than OTL?

And the major reason to consider that it might not be, is the supremely counterproductive way Bush mandated the early occupation--and the later occupation--and the whole Iraq mess from beginning to end on his watch--should be bungled.

Just because Rumsfeld may have sincerely believed something doesn't make it right and true. From the point of view of professed goals--to bring democracy to Iraq, to check the rise of anti-American and general anti-Western terrorism, to stop an alleged thread of WMDs, and to eliminate Hussein himself--they achieved only the latter, and belatedly. There never was a serious WMD threat in the first place in Iraq (not saying Hussein might not have posed one if left completely alone, but he wasn't left alone and the isolation and interference he was under left him no effective capacity to develop one) whereas it continues to grow apace elsewhere. Nothing dealt the USA so severe a blow to our prestige globally as the way we handled Iraq. Nothing could have been more provocative than the actual approach we took.

Compared to that clusterfrack, I suppose Rumsfeld's quick-in-and-out notion might hardly have been worse. But only in that light; as a policy it was criminally irresponsible. Even if we had, in the course of a massive bombardment and military curbstomp, also by sheer good luck managed to kill Hussein himself and all his personal offspring, that kind of smash-grab-run would surely have left a somewhat wrecked Iraq seething and liable to fall right back in line behind someone indistinguishable from Hussein. If it were true that there were pro-USA Iraqis waiting patiently for some thunderbolt to take out Hussein, we'd surely have needed to stay to ensure their chances at being the ones to take over. In fact, it is part of the moral and legal (by international law) obligation of a conqueror to hang around to ensure order.

What we did was the worst case; we did hang around, leaving our soldiers in a buzzsaw, but without any planning, preparation, or means available to properly implement our minimal duties as occupying powers, thanks to Rummie's vetos on said planning and in fact the force levels necessary to carry out a reasonable occupation plan. That left not only the Iraqis themselves in the lurch but our own soldiers, as failure to deploy adequate troops to secure what we dislodged the prior regime from meant that massive stocks of weapons of various kinds fell easily into the hands both of disgruntled former supporters of Hussein and his numerous underground opponents.

Now, if we'd done it by the book--the book that American generals who were fired by Rumsfeld were trying to follow, our own doctrines on how to handle an occupation that our own experience has led us to compile--I still think it would have been a mess. We'd have had to initially deploy something like twice as many people and plan to stay for years. To be sure, we might, if all this were intelligently managed, perhaps have made more friends than enemies in Iraq and managed to leave some years before say 2008. But I wouldn't bet much on the Bush Administration being able to approach intelligent management; what they did initially was dead opposite the right approach--well, what the actual invading military forces tried to do, with inadequate resources to be sure, was not entirely wrongheaded, but they were countermanded in short order by Bush's appointed proconsuls.

The big mistake, in my view, was invading at all. I don't think it was ever strictly necessary, and certainly shouldn't have been allowed to happen on Bush's watch.

A bigger mistake was supporting guys like Hussein on their rise to power in the first place; that goes back a long way, to the early 80s in his personal case and to the early '60s in the history of US support for thuggish military coups in Iraq in general. The thing about guys like Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, and their brain trust in general rolling their eyes at me about spilt milk and waters under the bridge is, these people were the ones who, in the 1980s, spilt that milk under the bridge personally; they were the ones who aided Hussein's rise to the top in Iraq and supported him in his war on the Iranians, with everything from satellite intelligence to helping him develop and deploy the same chemical WMDs that we later used to rhetorically hang him.

So who knows what Donald Rumsfeld thinks in his doublethinkful, Bigbrotherful little mind. As a functioning part of the team he had served for decades before and continued to serve for years after being allegedly overruled on the matter of staying in force in Iraq, the systematic effect of his actions is quite different from the idealistic professions of the various members of that crew. Call my cynical and crazy but I think they achieved what they set out to achieve, and a lot of that had to do with setting the potential for democracy as far back as they could manage, overseas and abroad, and advancing the interest of global plutocracy both here and abroad.
 
TheMilitantOne and Shevek23 have some good points, IMHO. When a force moves in and gives the reigns to, as Alexander said on his deathbed, "the strongest" one leaves the ethnic and cultural byways to the winds. The result is vaguely familiar to those who predicted the same in 1920.

It is a dilemma in that the way to deal with a dictatorship/or dinosaur is usually kill it by chopping off the head, but this leaves a power vacuum. The large raid or incursion, the recent thread on the invasion of North Vietnam aside, all too often only stokes the fires.

If you have not figured it out yet, historically many a dictator gets his jollies by provoking the US, seeming to be David against the giant. It is instant acceptance with nativism around the world, and dictators hunger for world wide acceptance.

But to invade, temporarily occupy, then ditch in the state so many countries are in, with years of one sorry type of repression leading to another, a status quo and regression to the mean exists.

To break the chain requires a bit of luck and/or nearly over whelming force. Shock and awe at first helps, too. All of which would explain why Bush #1 was talked out of occupying all of Iraq.
 
The Militant One;4260605 What we should have done is find a happy medium and have a true coalition invade Iraq said:
Thats an interesting claim. Why is the US Army unsuited to this role whereas other national armies are? The role of the military is to achieve a political objective. Part and parcel of any successful counter-insurgency is the effort at gaining the "hearts and minds" of the population so that they choose to support your side rather than that of the insurgents. The US military, at times been quite successful at this - the Philippines, Cuba are two examples which spring immediately to mind while the military effort against the Native Americans is another more controversial one, perhaps. Yet it continually tries to downplay that experience and to instead promote itself as a player in the game of the "big battalions" as if it prefers that role and sees it as the only real one which a real military force should consider. If I was an American, I'd be asking hard questions of my military leaders about their willingness to not think about this aspect of warfare. Rumsfield also failed to address it with his "revolution in military affairs". It like the traditional US military leadership focused exclusively on defeating formal military forces in the field. The only difference was the means by it was to be achieved, not what sort of campaign or objectives were to be captured/destroyed/etc.
 
QUOTE=The Militant One;4260605
What we should have done is find a happy medium and have a true coalition invade Iraq, not just the U.S./Britain with international cheerleaders. We needed equal involvement and equal claim. .[/QUOTE]


but what does a large coalition acutely get you out side of the political ability to spread blame around (not that that is nesacarly a small thing)?


The Militant One;4260605 Then once the invasion was complete said:

the problem with this is that US troops almost certainly would be acting as teachers ect, ect, given the size of the commitment called for they would just be under UN commanded.
 
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