Questions about the Japanese religious situation during the Azuchi-Momoyama period

[WotanArgead]

The question concerns the timeline, where there is no Christianity and Islam. At the same time, the modernization of Japan requires a solution to the problem of Buddhist land tenure. UTL - Oda Nobunaga adopted Christianity, for the sake of mobilizing the trade and craft class, and the supply of European weapons. Since it is about the absence of Christianity as such, it becomes necessary to clarify some moments of religious history. There is a popular movement known as Ikkō-ikki. Namely, what religious movements were popular among traders and artisans?

 

[Lord High Executioner]

The question concerns the timeline, where there is no Christianity and Islam. At the same time, the modernization of Japan requires a solution to the problem of Buddhist land tenure. UTL - Oda Nobunaga adopted Christianity, for the sake of mobilizing the trade and craft class, and the supply of European weapons. Since it is about the absence of Christianity as such, it becomes necessary to clarify some moments of religious history. There is a popular movement known as Ikkō-ikki. Namely, what religious movements were popular among traders and artisans?

Not my period, but I've been lead to belive that the standard answer is "None, really" - received wisdom is that even then,
the Japanese (urban dwellers) weren't particularly religious.
(Especially when compared to the received wisdom regarding the Christian and Muslim world.)

There is Pure Land Buddhism, but that is basically what the Ikkō-ikki came from.
There is/was/will be Shingaku, but that is during Tokugawa. (There also appears to be some,
possibly semantic, disagreements on where if falls on the religious-secular phikosophy spectrum.)
Then again, something like Shingaku, or at least that can be characterised in a similar way -
"Neo-Confucian basis with elements of Zen Buddhism and Shinto" - does not seem impossible.

 

[WotanArgead]

Then again, something like Shingaku, or at least that can be characterised in a similar way -
"Neo-Confucian basis with elements of Zen Buddhism and Shinto" - does not seem impossible.

Curious enough, but I can't find detailed information yet.

 

[GameBawesome]

Actually, Oda Nobunaga never adopted Christianity himself, and used Christians to get get better relations with the Portuguese. However, he may have genuinely admire the courage and conviction for the Jesuits coming all the way, to spread their religion. He also used Christianity to counter Buddhism, especially those Ikko Ikki monks.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi did not like Christians. Once a incident where a European Sailor said that the Spanish spread Christianity to prepare for an conquest, Hideyoshi started persecuting Christians. However, it didn’t stop many Daimyo, including one of Hideyoshi’s generals during the Imjin War to convert.

Tokugawa Ieyasu I am unsure. He probably didn’t care about Christians, but fear Christian rebellion. But once he found out Protestants thanks to William Adams, this gave him to opportunity to restrict Portuguese Jesuits, and eventually after an rebellion, his successors would ban Catholicism from Japan

 

[Lord High Executioner]

Curious enough, but I can't find detailed information yet.

Yeah, the (English) Wikipedia article is a bit stubby...

 

[WotanArgead]

Actually, Oda Nobunaga never adopted Christianity himself, and used Christians to get get better relations with the Portuguese. However, he may have genuinely admire the courage and conviction for the Jesuits coming all the way, to spread their religion. He also used Christianity to counter Buddhism, especially those Ikko Ikki monks.

Nevertheless, his activities contributed to Christianization. In fact, if the trend continued, then Japan could become a Catholic country. Here religion plays ideology - Oda Nobunaga sought to limit the power of daimyo and the privileges of monks, and Christianity became the banner of peasants and merchants. So I'm thinking about what to replace.

 

[Nivek]

Nevertheless, his activities contributed to Christianization. In fact, if the trend continued, then Japan could become a Catholic country. Here religion plays ideology - Oda Nobunaga sought to limit the power of daimyo and the privileges of monks, and Christianity became the banner of peasants and merchants. So I'm thinking about what to replace.

Japan power come from the emperor, monotheistic Faith goes against Shinto, I'd anything oda was using the Catholics to get know-how and have people to beat Buddhist, once he becomes high regent( he is not relayed to the Fujiwara he can't be shogun) he is going to keep Catholics at bay

 

[WotanArgead]

Japan power come from the emperor, monotheistic Faith goes against Shinto, I'd anything oda was using the Catholics to get know-how and have people to beat Buddhist, once he becomes high regent( he is not relayed to the Fujiwara he can't be shogun) he is going to keep Catholics at bay

However, Christians will be loyal to the Oda clan as a guarantor against persecution. Christians play a key role in relations with Europe. Even the sacred status of the Emperor does not prevent him from adopting Christianity. So there is such a possibility.

 

[rfmcdonald]

Nevertheless, his activities contributed to Christianization. In fact, if the trend continued, then Japan could become a Catholic country. Here religion plays ideology - Oda Nobunaga sought to limit the power of daimyo and the privileges of monks, and Christianity became the banner of peasants and merchants. So I'm thinking about what to replace.

Would that trend have continued? Was there even a trend towards national Christianization as opposed to, say, the creation of a Catholic minority of some size concentrated in some regions and some social classes?

 

[Nivek]

Even the sacred status of the Emperor does not prevent him from adopting Christianity

That put a massive target any daimayo can exploit, if anything like OTL he might be asked to do seppuku far earlier too( his true power base is Shintoists and this just alienated them,
)

 

[WotanArgead]

Would that trend have continued? Was there even a trend towards national Christianization as opposed to, say, the creation of a Catholic minority of some size concentrated in some regions and some social classes?

Well, I know the timeline where it turned out - though the first Christian daijo-daijin got his post in 1614. But we got distracted. The empire still needs reform.

That put a massive target any daimayo can exploit, if anything like OTL he might be asked to do seppuku far earlier too( his true power base is Shintoists and this just alienated them,

The children of Odin and Perun changed religion without much remorse)

 

[Monter]

Nevertheless, his activities contributed to Christianization. In fact, if the trend continued, then Japan could become a Catholic country. Here religion plays ideology - Oda Nobunaga sought to limit the power of daimyo and the privileges of monks, and Christianity became the banner of peasants and merchants. So I'm thinking about what to replace.

Not really, the stronghold of Christianity in Japan was in Kyushu on western Japan, Nobunaga never got there before dying at Honno-ji, the scale of Christianity is really overstated and there is no evidence it was turning on something resembling a large-scale mass movement beyond regionalism, if Luis Frou's estimate (which is probably exagerated) of 200,000 is true, that might sound impressive on its own, then you realize Japan had over 20 million people at the time and that sounds pretty disappointing considering it was over 50 years of missionary activity in a highly unstable country.

 

[WotanArgead]

Not really, the stronghold of Christianity in Japan was in Kyushu on western Japan, Nobunaga never got there before dying at Honno-ji, the scale of Christianity is really overstated and there is no evidence it was turning on something resembling a large-scale mass movement beyond regionalism, if Luis Frou's estimate (which is probably exagerated) of 200,000 is true, that might sound impressive on its own, then you realize Japan had over 20 million people at the time and that sounds pretty disappointing considering it was over 50 years of missionary activity in a highly unstable country.

This does not change the central problem - for Nobunaga still needs to fight the Buddhist monasteries. In reality, he could afford Christians. But who can use its analogue in a world where there are no Christians?

 

[Monter]

This does not change the central problem - for Nobunaga still needs to fight the Buddhist monasteries. In reality, he could afford Christians. But who can use its analogue in a world where there are no Christians?

Buddhists themselves or the state properly, the Ikko-Ikki were sects of (True) Pure Land Buddhism which is often not the same doctrine the bushi had (most followed Zen or Tendai) and conflicts with monks didn't entail complete rejection of the dharma, you can look to conflicts with the Church in medieval Europe, no one renounced Christianity because they got mad at the Pope or the local bishop.
Ieyasu got rid of the Ikko-Ikki and pacified the monasteries without paying respect to the Jesuits, he simply crushed them and institutionalized the temples.

 

[Nivek]

This does not change the central problem - for Nobunaga still needs to fight the Buddhist monasteries. In reality, he could afford Christians. But who can use its analogue in a world where there are no Christians?

Shintoism itself, other sects too

 

[WotanArgead]

Ieyasu got rid of the Ikko-Ikki and pacified the monasteries without paying respect to the Jesuits, he simply crushed them and institutionalized the temples.

If you're talking about Tokugawa, then I don't need him - he led the country into isolation and imposed an archaic hierarchy on it.

Shintoism itself, other sects too

This raises the question of which sects? This is in any case different from the State Shinto of the Meiji period, or even from the post-war period.

 

[Monter]

If you're talking about Tokugawa, then I don't need him - he led the country into isolation and imposed an archaic hierarchy on it.

Ieyasu didn't isolate Japan, his grandson did, also lol at "imposed an archaic hierarchy" first off the social organization of the Edo period has its origins in the Toyotomi edicts of the 1580s so putting everything under him is really off the mark and if really believe that any other warlord wouldn't enforce some sort of social stratification and authoritarian rule you really need to look up the personalities of the Sengoku, because those were pretty much the goals of everyone involved, being either in their own domain or on the whole country, the Edo bakufu was pretty much the end goal of everyone involved, a stable, pacified country ruled by righteous warriors.
Also your question "how to deal with the annoying monks without Christianity", I gave you an easy answer.

 

[WotanArgead]

Ieyasu didn't isolate Japan, his grandson did, also lol at "imposed an archaic hierarchy" first off the social organization of the Edo period has its origins in the Toyotomi edicts of the 1580s so putting everything under him is really off the mark and if really believe that any other warlord wouldn't enforce some sort of social stratification and authoritarian rule you really need to look up the personalities of the Sengoku, because those were pretty much the goals of everyone involved, being either in their own domain or on the whole country, the Edo bakufu was pretty much the end goal of everyone involved, a stable, pacified country ruled by righteous warriors.

This hierarchy included the tightening of restrictions on marriages between members of different estates. The consequence is the emergence of the Yobai custom.
Oda-sama just advocated the elimination of the privileges of the samurai, and the formation of a civil government. Traders and artisans acted as a support. So the victory of Nobunaga is seen as a possible stimulus for the formation of capitalism. Not saying that right with him, but let's say with his grandson.