Propensity of "third world populism" in the CSA.

[Gukpard]

So, Otl the US south had many figures that were populists, like E. H. Crump, Huey Long, Big Jim Folsom, among many others. The CSA itself was pretty close to Brazil in its social structure as it was a country built with its major objective being to protect a slaveholding elite, while its social structure was highly aristocratic and oligarchic.

This basically guarantees that if the CSA arrives in the 20th century it will be affected by the populist wave. I was wondering what are your takes on that.

 

[PobreCesar]

It seems probable, but we have to be careful about mapping too much of Brazilian history onto the CSA. There is an economic similarity but the CSA was different ideologically and also has nothing comparable to the Amazon in its borders. It was also much more urbanized I think.

 

[Domrémy-Scorniçesti Axis]

So, Otl the US south had many figures that were populists, like E. H. Crump, Huey Long, Big Jim Folsom, among many others. The CSA itself was pretty close to Brazil in its social structure as it was a country built with its major objective being to protect a slaveholding elite, while its social structure was highly aristocratic and oligarchic.

This basically guarantees that if the CSA arrives in the 20th century it will be affected by the populist wave. I was wondering what are your takes on that.

I can see Long becoming a Franco-style dictator of the CSA, with Eugene Talmadge as his right-hand man. Assuming the country followed the Manchukuo (slave labor in factories) path to industrialisation and remained neutral in WWI, the CSA would side with the Axis and lose, and Long would be executed.

 

[Gukpard]

I can see Long becoming a Franco-style dictator of the CSA, with Eugene Talmadge as his right-hand man. Assuming the country followed the Manchukuo (slave labor in factories) path to industrialisation and remained neutral in WWI, the CSA would side with the Axis and lose, and Long would be executed.

Uh, Long hated Talmadge and the Dixiecrats... And he was not a military man like Franco.

Tbh the closest we can get to a Long comparison is Vargas.

It seems probable, but we have to be careful about mapping too much of Brazilian history onto the CSA. There is an economic similarity but the CSA was different ideologically and also has nothing comparable to the Amazon in its borders. It was also much more urbanized I think.

Yes, and slavery in the CSA wasnt as bad as in Brazil, the CSA also had a higher standard of living and higher literacy rates. They would get a better start than Brazil.

 

[Domrémy-Scorniçesti Axis]

Uh, Long hated Talmadge

The butterfly effect likely changes this and puts them on the same page.

 

[Karl der Große]

The butterfly effect likely changes this and puts them on the same page.

The butterfly effect means Long isn't even born.

 

[Domrémy-Scorniçesti Axis]

The butterfly effect means Long isn't even born.

This means Talmadge would fill his role.

 

[The Icebreaker]

The butterfly effect means Long isn't even born.

The butterfly effect to be honest means that causations always radically change consequences,never going in between

Uh, Long hated Talmadge and the Dixiecrats... And he was not a military man like Franco.

Tbh the closest we can get to a Long comparison is Vargas.



Yes, and slavery in the CSA wasnt as bad as in Brazil, the CSA also had a higher standard of living and higher literacy rates. They would get a better start than Brazil.

also yes,and I think the real fun with them will begin in the 1950-1960s,when they will be suddenly struck by the baton of consequenc of racism and long retreat form slave-driven economy to the back of their heads,meaning that well,there will be even more enmity and powerstruggle(considering Talamage and Long lasting into that time hypothetically)

 

[Gukpard]

The butterfly effect means Long isn't even born.

Eh, no. This is a christian forum so we do not butterfly Huey Long away here, good sir.

also yes,and I think the real fun with them will begin in the 1950-1960s,when they will be suddenly struck by the baton of consequenc of racism and long retreat form slave-driven economy to the back of their heads,meaning that well,there will be even more enmity and powerstruggle(considering Talamage and Long lasting into that time hypothetically)

Tbh I think that E. H. Crump would end taking power. Long was too friendly to blacks to rise in the CSA and he was dependent on increasing black turnout, while Crump was still a racist and would better fit the south in that scenario.

 

[The Icebreaker]

Eh, no. This is a christian forum so we do not butterfly Huey Long away here, good sir.


Tbh I think that E. H. Crump would end taking power. Long was too friendly to blacks to rise in the CSA and he was dependent on increasing black turnout, while Crump was still a racist and would better fit the south in that scenario.

Oh,that’s a certain possibility.Also saw the video,that’s a cool one.Crump,though,is not cool.However TL-wise…It would be interesting to do something ab him.

 

[Rising Steel Warrior]

As KingSweden24 said, the CSA does have a planter oligarchy and borders the Latin American country of Mexico so some Third World populism isn't out of the question given that it wasn't as industrialized as the USA/North and was more agricultural though slightly more developed than it's Latin American counterparts. He's even included Huey Long as an important character in his story.

 

[Enigmajones]

I can see Long becoming a Franco-style dictator of the CSA, with Eugene Talmadge as his right-hand man. Assuming the country followed the Manchukuo (slave labor in factories) path to industrialisation and remained neutral in WWI, the CSA would side with the Axis and lose, and Long would be executed.

I’ve said this before about different scenarios but with a POD in the 1860’s Huey Long would not be born, or if they were they would be a very different person from OTL.

 

[Rising Steel Warrior]

I’ve said this before about different scenarios but with a POD in the 1860’s Huey Long would not be born, or if they were they would be a very different person from OTL.

Depends on the usage of the butterfly effect on OTL births that is.

 

[Domrémy-Scorniçesti Axis]

I’ve said this before about different scenarios but with a POD in the 1860’s Huey Long would not be born, or if they were they would be a very different person from OTL.

You have a point. Long's grandfather did not fight in the ACW, so with a Confederate victory, he could have done so.

 

[dcharles]

Eh, no. This is a christian forum so we do not butterfly Huey Long away here, good sir.

Set 'im straight.

 

[raharris1973]

Uh, Long hated Talmadge and the Dixiecrats... And he was not a military man like Franco.

Tbh the closest we can get to a Long comparison is Vargas.



Yes, and slavery in the CSA wasnt as bad as in Brazil, the CSA also had a higher standard of living and higher literacy rates. They would get a better start than Brazil.

Wasn’t as bad by what measure? Higher survival rates and less attrition in North America, resulting in less import/ throughput?

 

[Gukpard]

Wasn’t as bad by what measure? Higher survival rates and less attrition in North America, resulting in less import/ throughput?

Brazil was the worst slavocracy in modern history. It was similar to stuff like Draka to a level that slavery was common even in poor people's houses and government buildings used slaves for stuff. The law allowed people to refuse to give liberty to slaves so slaves would buy their own slaves if they got refused freedom and pass to their slaves what the slave master asked them.

Slavery in Brazil was way more aggressive than in the CSA. The brazilian sociologist Darcy Ribeiro describes Brazil as "If the CSA won the war so much it annexed the north".
Also in therms of living expectancy, literacy and working conditions brazilian slaves were in a way worse situation than the CSA.

 

[Thoresby]

I can see Long becoming a Franco-style dictator of the CSA, with Eugene Talmadge as his right-hand man. Assuming the country followed the Manchukuo (slave labor in factories) path to industrialisation and remained neutral in WWI, the CSA would side with the Axis and lose, and Long would be executed.

Putting the massive butterflies to one side why would the CSA join the Axis? If anything they're much more likely to join the Allies considering the deep economic ties between the South and Britain.

 

[Domrémy-Scorniçesti Axis]

Putting the massive butterflies to one side why would the CSA join the Axis? If anything they're much more likely to join the Allies considering the deep economic ties between the South and Britain.

Due to the racist ideological affinity between the two governments, but you have a point.

 

[holycookie]

Brazil was the worst slavocracy in modern history. It was similar to stuff like Draka to a level that slavery was common even in poor people's houses and government buildings used slaves for stuff.

Yes, interestingly it was the state with the most economically active slaves in the new world. Unlike the CSA, Brazil did not prevent miscegenation or government positions for black and pardo people. This prevented the culture that OTL black people in the USA have from occurring in Brazil. Not allowing black and pardo people to take government positions was one of the things that weakened Dutch Brazil.

Due to the racist ideological affinity between the two governments.

America was basically an apartist state at the time. France, England and other allied countries had large anti-Semitic populations (and after the war these anti-Semites supported the idea of Israel to get rid of Jews in Europe). Weck, the only army in the Second World War that had mixed units (with different races, white, black, etc.) was Brazil. If anyone would support a possible Axil or in this case Germany to break the current order it is the USA.