Probability of nukes

What is the probability of nukes either:
1) Existing as physical objects, or
2) Existing as correct designs
and this existence being common knowledge (alright if a minority think they are a hoax...there are people in OTL who think they are a hoax)
starting with PoDs in
1900
1800
1700
1600
1500 and
1400?
 
No possibility at all prior to the 20th Century. Just too many interrelated advances in metallurgy, engineering, chemistry, and physics needed for it to happen much earlier than it did.
 
What is the probability of nukes either:
1) Existing as physical objects, or
2) Existing as correct designs
and this existence being common knowledge (alright if a minority think they are a hoax...there are people in OTL who think they are a hoax)
starting with PoDs in
1900
1800
1700
1600
1500 and
1400?
A PoD in any of those centuries could still lead to nukes eventually.

Say Henry V of England survives long enough to stabilise the union of English and French crowns, and one of his successors merges the two kingdoms into one. A United Kingdom of France and England then causes technology to advance at a faster pace, and nuclear weapons are developed in the 1800s (probably by another nation fearful of them).
 
No, those are the PoDs. I used present tense to indicate Nov 2019.
Those are not PoDs. That is a listing of years a century apart from each other. A PoD has to be a changed event, not just the year it happens.

Point of Divergence or POD, is the moment when the fictional world's history stops following the same course of events as our timeline.


If you are indicating Nov 2019, then both 1) and 2) are 100% probability of nukes, nuclear weapons have already existed for decades.
 
I will try it again.
Take 1,000,000 TLs starting from 1900, each varying in minute details from each other that butterfly up. In 2019 how many have common knowledge of nuclear weapons?
Then do the same for 1800, then 1700, and so on until 1400.
 

Deleted member 114175

Take 1,000,000 TLs starting from 1900, each varying in minute details from each other that butterfly up. In 2019 how many have common knowledge of nuclear weapons?
99-100%. By 1900 the industrial revolution and scientific momentum were in full swing. Study of EM radiation, the periodic table, material properties, etc. were increasing at the time and lend themselves to later fields and later discoveries that would lead to nuclear power and nuclear weapons.

In general, most discoveries have been made simultaneously by multiple people working on the same problem or field.
 
That’s about what I figured for 1900.
But what about earlier in the Scientific Revolution, or even before it started?
 
99-100%. By 1900 the industrial revolution and scientific momentum were in full swing. Study of EM radiation, the periodic table, material properties, etc. were increasing at the time and lend themselves to later fields and later discoveries that would lead to nuclear power and nuclear weapons.

In general, most discoveries have been made simultaneously by multiple people working on the same problem or field.

But not nuclear arms.
Developing nuclear arms is EXPENSIVE. Even with proof of concept in place. Germany failed, Britain needed till 1952...

Easy PoD. Gavrilo Princip misses. Franz Ferdinand dies natural causes in 1950, aged 86 like Franz Joseph - and Emperor of Austria-Hungary. His funeral in Vienna is attended by Empoeror Wilhelm III (Wilhelm II died natural causes in 1941 as OTL) and Emperor Alexis of Russia.
With military budgets as percentage of GDP never exceeding the 1913 levels through 20th century, how much would Wilhelm III-s Germany invest into checking the speculations of German nuclear physicists and science fiction writers about theoretical possibility of nuclear explosion?
Even people deep into the topic can reasonably discuss the possibility of a reactor meltdown due to runaway chain reaction (uranium ores in Bohemia are in Austria), but conclude that a bomb is impractical because it would predetonate and fizzle at a small yield. The theoretical possibility of enriching a critical mass of uranium... with no war expected and elected Reichstag keeping Reichswehr at short budget, no one will invest in checking and those who are aware of speculations can suspect it would fizzle anyway.
 
But not nuclear arms.
Developing nuclear arms is EXPENSIVE. Even with proof of concept in place. Germany failed, Britain needed till 1952...

Easy PoD. Gavrilo Princip misses. Franz Ferdinand dies natural causes in 1950, aged 86 like Franz Joseph - and Emperor of Austria-Hungary. His funeral in Vienna is attended by Empoeror Wilhelm III (Wilhelm II died natural causes in 1941 as OTL) and Emperor Alexis of Russia.
With military budgets as percentage of GDP never exceeding the 1913 levels through 20th century, how much would Wilhelm III-s Germany invest into checking the speculations of German nuclear physicists and science fiction writers about theoretical possibility of nuclear explosion?
Even people deep into the topic can reasonably discuss the possibility of a reactor meltdown due to runaway chain reaction (uranium ores in Bohemia are in Austria), but conclude that a bomb is impractical because it would predetonate and fizzle at a small yield. The theoretical possibility of enriching a critical mass of uranium... with no war expected and elected Reichstag keeping Reichswehr at short budget, no one will invest in checking and those who are aware of speculations can suspect it would fizzle anyway.


Yeah, although I think you need to provide an alternative to prevent anyone from developing them in the long term... if chemical and biological weapons become efficient and reliable enough, along with adequate delivery methods, I think you could keep nukes as a weapon idea that just come up from time to time in universities, military think tanks and Sci-fi communities

Although the big risk is that a rogue state develop one, one who couldn’t have access to the highest grade biological chemical and weapons and would attempt to get nukes as an alternative, they may very well fail, but the research they would do would bring the world closer to a nuclear weapon
 
There is also a thing that nuclear weapons may well NOT get the OTL rep and become regarded as "curiosity weapon". If the first nuke used in military conflict TTL is used not to bomb a city but to bomb a group of troops in the field/camp, the results would be less "holy shit wow" but more "we could have achieved the same result with much more cheaper methods".
 
But not nuclear arms.
Developing nuclear arms is EXPENSIVE. Even with proof of concept in place. Germany failed, Britain needed till 1952...

Easy PoD. Gavrilo Princip misses. Franz Ferdinand dies natural causes in 1950, aged 86 like Franz Joseph - and Emperor of Austria-Hungary. His funeral in Vienna is attended by Empoeror Wilhelm III (Wilhelm II died natural causes in 1941 as OTL) and Emperor Alexis of Russia.
With military budgets as percentage of GDP never exceeding the 1913 levels through 20th century, how much would Wilhelm III-s Germany invest into checking the speculations of German nuclear physicists and science fiction writers about theoretical possibility of nuclear explosion?
Even people deep into the topic can reasonably discuss the possibility of a reactor meltdown due to runaway chain reaction (uranium ores in Bohemia are in Austria), but conclude that a bomb is impractical because it would predetonate and fizzle at a small yield. The theoretical possibility of enriching a critical mass of uranium... with no war expected and elected Reichstag keeping Reichswehr at short budget, no one will invest in checking and those who are aware of speculations can suspect it would fizzle anyway.
Nuclear power for other purposes. I could see the military of any nation spearheading its development due to its uses for naval propulsion and maybe even airships or strategic bombers or other large nuclear-powered aircraft (to keep a few Army/Air Force guys interested), in addition to the prospect of an atomic bomb. Use as a civilian power source might also interest government funding. And once you have working reactors, you'll eventually want to see what the whole "nuclear bomb" thing is all about.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Science is not an absolute. It is an amalgam of best understanding, forced into an iron collar to make a set of laws. Every now and then a new paradigm comes along and shifts the entire understanding - think E=MC2 or chaos theory.

Arriving at nuclear fission when we did was because the track that science ran on in our world led there. But you can see numerous side-tracks that at the time seemed promising, and then didn't result in anything, until much later. IIRC a lot of Tesla's patents sat there doing nothing for decades until the invention of the computer.

It is perfectly feasible that a series of different events on a macro scale could have resulted in a different amalgam we call science at a later point of view. Maybe we understand television better in 1940 but not nuclear physics. Maybe we have transistors but don't have atomic theory.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
But not nuclear arms.
Developing nuclear arms is EXPENSIVE. Even with proof of concept in place. Germany failed, Britain needed till 1952...

Easy PoD. Gavrilo Princip misses. Franz Ferdinand dies natural causes in 1950, aged 86 like Franz Joseph - and Emperor of Austria-Hungary. His funeral in Vienna is attended by Empoeror Wilhelm III (Wilhelm II died natural causes in 1941 as OTL) and Emperor Alexis of Russia.
With military budgets as percentage of GDP never exceeding the 1913 levels through 20th century, how much would Wilhelm III-s Germany invest into checking the speculations of German nuclear physicists and science fiction writers about theoretical possibility of nuclear explosion?
Even people deep into the topic can reasonably discuss the possibility of a reactor meltdown due to runaway chain reaction (uranium ores in Bohemia are in Austria), but conclude that a bomb is impractical because it would predetonate and fizzle at a small yield. The theoretical possibility of enriching a critical mass of uranium... with no war expected and elected Reichstag keeping Reichswehr at short budget, no one will invest in checking and those who are aware of speculations can suspect it would fizzle anyway.
Developing nuclear weapons is expensive (approximately what an aircraft carrier costs to develop and build), when you are in a hurry with your economy drained by WW I and WW II. A more modest amount of funding (such as what was spent on a battleship) from a national economy that hasn't been crippled would manage it in a decade.
Nations would invest in nuclear weapon research even when at peace, military budgets would be smaller but with a higher percentage on R&D.

One big delay for Britain was they provided the Manhattan Project with their nuclear research, scientists and uranium while anticipating that America would reciprocate by giving Britain the results of the project. If the British had done it on their own, it was expected they would have managed by 1947 (Churchill knew that would be too late, which is why he turned to America). If the United States had provided Britain with the results, then they would have had it the same year as America.
Germany failed because a lack of uranium, the belief in "German physics" , the loss of the majority of their best scientists, and other WW related issues. No WW I or WWII, then they would have not had those problems.

The Frisch–Peierls memorandum was the first technical exposition of a practical nuclear weapon in 1940, but many scientists were capable of calculating the theoretical effects of fission on pure uranium. Once the basic model of the atom (Rutherford model 1911 (later replaced by other models)) was developed, then it became inevitable that someone would eventually think of calculating those fission results. No one who calculated fission on pure uranium had the result of the bomb fizzling, many calculations were too high or too low but all gave the result of a successful nuclear detonation of kilograms of pure uranium. Once it is known that a pure uranium bomb will work, then it is a matter of costly experimentation to purify uranium (aka enrichment) and successfully engineer a viable design.
Many scientists (including the notable Niels Bohr) concluded a fizzle would result, but they were calculating the effects of unrefined (or limited refinement) uranium, not pure uranium.

Nuclear reactors can be used to enrich uranium, and some of the early designs did it unintentionally. Any use of nuclear power will result in the realisation that bombs are perfectly possible. Opposition to nuclear power began when civilians saw photographs of Japanese who suffered irradiation, and grew with disasters like Chernobyl. Without those two events, nuclear power would be more widely used.


British and German progress was crippled by WW I, research into pure science (e.g. nuclear physics) had it's funding massively cut and scientists were recruited/conscripted into the military. Wartime secrecy, censorship and restrictions on international cooperation also significantly slowed research.
Without WW I, both nations could have developed the nuclear bomb in the 1930s. Whether they would have built and tested one depends on the international scene, but they would have had the design.
Henry Moseley (killed in WW I battle of Gallipoli) empirically produced important information about atoms (including heavier ones like uranium) by hitting them with electrons and x-rays. With the discovery of protons (1920) , if he had lived then it is highly likely that he would have continued his experiments but with protons.

One major risk is the lack of war-related secrecy would mean that a substitutional amount of the nuclear physics behind the bomb would be public. At first details were hidden to keep the advantage of being the only one with the weapon, and then it was because of the destructive nature of the weapon. No war means the technology becomes classified at a later point in development.
 
Starting with a POD of 1900 or later, it would seem that detailed knowledge of nuclear physics would exist by now, unless there was a major disaster. Given the likelihood of war, it is probable some country would have developed nuclear weapons by now. However, because nuclear physics requires a lot of concepts unavailable at 1900, it is very difficult to get nuclear weapons much earlier.

Nevertheless, Leo Szilard told the story that when the neutron was first discovered in 1932, he put in a proposal to examine the effect of neutrons on every element in the periodic table. It was rejected as a waste of money by some bureaucrat. If the project went ahead, he felt he would have been discovered fission by 1935 - three years early - and he would have got the Nobel prize, but the impact on world history, well, you can imagine.

Starting with a POD of 1800 or later, there are ways to accelerate such technical advances, at least a little. For instance, if Ernst Mach (of Mach speed fame) wasn't so influential or dead-set against the existence of atoms, more physicists could have been encouraged to research atomic physics in the 1890's - early 1900's.

I like the concept of having an ensemble of time lines and I think the implied question of whether or not OTL is typical or exceptional in its technical development interesting.
 
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