Planning my first TL, hoping you guys can answer some questions!

[Bastiram]

Hello, been checking this forum regularly for 7-8 years now, even posted a little bit! And finally found the time, and to some degree the courage to start my own timeline.
But I have some reservations towards some of the problems I have discovered.
To avoid giving too much away, the timelines pod will make sure that the "age of decay" does not happen to Denmark, basically it was 100 years of different civil wars and then later a few years with interregnum which resulted in nearly the entire kingdom being pawned off to greedy German counts.

One of my troubles are the government form in Denmark in the period, which were elective. In OTL the elective nature wwas curbed by the Danish-Norwegian union (Norway being hereditary) and were first removed when absolutism were introduced in 1660, after Denmark lost a third of the country to Sweden. However the pod I am using will butterfly the Norwegian union, and since one of the points of this Tl is to have Denmark prosper I would like to avoid having Denmark loosing a third of the nation to introduce a... more suitable government form. So somehow I have to get the nobles to agree to limiting their power, certainly a civil war could fix this, the problem is that the pod used will ensure, that there are some pretty formidable nobles in the kingdom in the early years.

Another thought I have is that Hamburg and Lübeck will be part of the Kingdom, and to avoid having them part of the duchies, I would like to keep them as "free cities", do you think the inclusion of this concept would open up for more free cities in the further? or would this just be another unruly piece of land that the king will have to wrestle with? Another worry, I have is if free cities potentially pose too much a threat to cities inside the duchies and the kingdom, for example Copenhagen. Say I introduce more free cities along the line, but keep Copenhagen inside the Danish Kingdom because it is so close and vital to the center of power?

Obviously this is my TL so I can to a degree do what I want, but I would like it to be realistic.

Any pointers would be appreciated.

And have a good new year !

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

If a particular noble is giving you a lot of trouble, just make him die an "accidental" death. As long as you don't commit genocide to important people, it will be perfectly fine. There were enough diseases around to blame it on.

'Elective' means what it does in CK2, right? (ie. a bunch of nobility vote) If your "more suitable government" is a hereditary monarchy, you can just have the king do something really good for the country (such as beating Sweden in a war) and then call a popular vote of "should I rule for life?". Equally you can just have him pull a Caesar and just fight his way into power.

IIRC, the free cities around that time were mostly because it is easier for a small place to trade than a large one, and the HRE wanted its members to be rich and powerful. I don't think any of them were aggressive, so they might steal Danish gold but I don't think they would be able to attack Copenhagen.

Obviously this is my TL so I can to a degree do what I want, but I would like it to be realistic.

I'll quote a post I made yesterday about this:

There is the old debate of how many butterflies would affect a TL. I think this has the largest part of deciding in which direction a TL will head. Plus there is the "Rule of Cool", which is perfectly acceptable as long as you make some sort of attempt to stick with the TL and not head into a 40k-style "this is awesome so who cares about logic!"

For me, I think that butterflies become quite chaotic quite quickly, and am absolutely fine with a rapidly divergent world after only a few months. Even for things that probably wouldn't be in any way directly tied to the PoD. Many events in history were very heavily tied to utter chance happenings, such as Russia's withdrawal from the 7 years war or the pro-war Japanese people being unable to find the surrender message at the end of ww2. Because of this, a TL that follows things absolutely "logically" probably isn't the most accurate. At the same time though, having too many chance events occur makes it just seem ridiculous or even ASB. For different people, the balance between chance and 'most likely' is different.

For instance, some would say that a Nazi victory can only give Germany territories in Europe. Others will believe it fine to include Britain. Still others will think that it should include North America as well. It is up to the author to decide what rules they will play by in their TL.

Also, as long as you don't have ASBs, then the only factor you really should worry about is luck. For each event, you should try to keep a reasonable balance of good and bad luck so that nothing ever gets so many good things happen to it that it just becomes an obvious "wanking" TL. Unless of course, you just want to have one that does exactly that.

- BNC

 

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

7-8 years and you didn't make a TL yet? Wow I literally made my account for the sake of posting a TL, to each their own I guess and I wish you luck in your endeavor and will give you a few tips:

1. Make it somewhat realistic, even if it sounds unrealistic try and make an assortment of contributing factors that make an unrealistic scenario more realistic.

2. Make it entertaining, how you do this can vary. I would recommend doing things that makes the reader think as well as think about things and aspects they haven't really thought of before.

3. Try and update somewhat frequently, people enjoy more then less. Even if it near kills you and gives you writers bloc for ten years you should at least get a handful of updates out relatively soon after each other. I take a more easy route and write down a couple of updates before I even post the TL and instead of having to work super fast I just release updates at fixed intervals in the beginning if I wish.

There are many others but these are my points, hope they help you out.

 

[arctic warrior]

Sounds like you're going with another outcome of the three party civil war ending 1157 - not impossible but of course the nobility certainly the Hvide were a block to hereditary rule; possisbly would like that deal for themselves.
Then you have the Jutland nobility - having read the Danmarks Krigshistorie some years ago it seems the Jutland nobility were the ever unruly sort so perhaps if basing your power upon them and finding a way later to curb them may make your plans work and relieve you of nobility rebellions popping up every now and then except those may happen in Sjælland instead.
Looking at genealogy it seems the Hvide family bled during the civil war years so perhaps something worse like more of the adult males getting killed off leaving you as the caretaker of their offspring. That could make for impressing upon them in reverence of their fathers the heavenly mandate their fathers died to achieve and thus them when coming of age consenting to inheritance. Could then too be used if basing power on the Jutland nobility too.

Free cities - this is early and during the time when cities would still be fighting for their rights ie. freedom of nobility meddling so that would be a possible though you'll have your Danish cities and Copenhagen as well - unless you present some special priviliges to it wanting it too. Could be quite entertaining spically with Copenhagen joining the Hanse as Bergen did...

Now on you go - remember planning ahead is a good thing which may pay off though usually I experience history taking a turn of its own when I do a TL! Your updates don't need to be extensive so keep the audience on the brink though also try rounding things out. Don't be too obsessed with a high frequency - peoples sometimes need to think about what to reply to your writings. Silence isn't alway a bad sign.

And do use your Danish sense of humor when possible - Redbeard did it so good in his TL and the Brits certainly like it! BTW the peoples around here aren't ignorant of Danish subject matter so don't be afraid of not getting an audience.
And don't be afraid to ask for help.

 

[Bastiram]

Sounds like you're going with another outcome of the three party civil war ending 1157 - not impossible but of course the nobility certainly the Hvide were a block to hereditary rule; possisbly would like that deal for themselves.
Then you have the Jutland nobility - having read the Danmarks Krigshistorie some years ago it seems the Jutland nobility were the ever unruly sort so perhaps if basing your power upon them and finding a way later to curb them may make your plans work and relieve you of nobility rebellions popping up every now and then except those may happen in Sjælland instead.
Looking at genealogy it seems the Hvide family bled during the civil war years so perhaps something worse like more of the adult males getting killed off leaving you as the caretaker of their offspring. That could make for impressing upon them in reverence of their fathers the heavenly mandate their fathers died to achieve and thus them when coming of age consenting to inheritance. Could then too be used if basing power on the Jutland nobility too.

Free cities - this is early and during the time when cities would still be fighting for their rights ie. freedom of nobility meddling so that would be a possible though you'll have your Danish cities and Copenhagen as well - unless you present some special priviliges to it wanting it too. Could be quite entertaining spically with Copenhagen joining the Hanse as Bergen did...

Now on you go - remember planning ahead is a good thing which may pay off though usually I experience history taking a turn of its own when I do a TL! Your updates don't need to be extensive so keep the audience on the brink though also try rounding things out. Don't be too obsessed with a high frequency - peoples sometimes need to think about what to reply to your writings. Silence isn't alway a bad sign.

And do use your Danish sense of humor when possible - Redbeard did it so good in his TL and the Brits certainly like it! BTW the peoples around here aren't ignorant of Danish subject matter so don't be afraid of not getting an audience.
And don't be afraid to ask for help.

You're about 60 years too early

 

[arctic warrior]

If you want something useable post some more information!
If the stuff given been of help then fine.

 

[Bastiram]

If you want something useable post some more information!
If the stuff given been of help then fine.

Haha, thought my hints would be obvious, but I have also been reading up on it for the past weeks.

Thinking of a pod with a different outcome to Valdemar II and his son Valdemars capture by the count of Schwerin while hunting, to avoid the collapse of the danish state that followed the next decades. Valdemar have conveniently expanded for me, so I just have to make sure it is kept!

From what I gather the rebellion led by Adolf IV, count of Holstein was a very close run thing, and this was with a Denmark that was crippled by inaction due to hostages, but also because of the huge sums that was payed to get the king and the elected heir released

 

[arctic warrior]

I looked it up post your reply and realized it.
Though if you don't have them abducted or even better fight off the count then Valdemar II should be able to make succession secure with the elected heir opening the path for inheritance if he lives long enough.

If the Danes triumph in the Battle of Mölln they have quite another situation vis-a-vis the rebels in which they may agree to some kind of deal in return for releasing the king and elected heir though in this scenario the Danish nobility may wiev the outcome of the matter as a result of their actions and not be so inclined to support inheritance to a line needing their support in dire times!
Of course you could following the release of the king and heir have Valdemar being victorious and the nobility bleed paving the way for the kings scheme.

Or having the nobility think now this is a good time for independence and refuse payment following the defeat of Mölln then let the Pope engineer the release of the king and heir and then Valdemar taking revenge upon his return beheading the unruly lot! I actually like this last outcome.

 

[Bastiram]

I looked it up post your reply and realized it.
Though if you don't have them abducted or even better fight off the count then Valdemar II should be able to make succession secure with the elected heir opening the path for inheritance if he lives long enough.

The plan is to have them avoid the abduction, simply to avoid the mess, say with more bodyguards etc. that are capable of defeating Henry force, my thought is that the rebellion will go on, however the rebellions support is surprisingly weak. From what I gather. The principality of Rügen and the two duchies of Pommerania [Stettin and Demmin] stayed loyal, Holstein was governed by Albert of Orlamünde, likewise Lübeck kept its support until the defeat at Mölln
This only leaves Mecklenburg as the only real rebel area, Adolf IV invaded from Bremen (with their support).

I am toying with the idea about letting one of the Pommerania duchies join the rebellion, however both are minors and their regent is the Prince of Rügen I believe.

One of my big problems is that the nobility and the king in that regard seem to have to split their estate between their sons which create a rather confusing mess, I somehow have to reform this to make having Denmark avoid expanding just to give second sons etc. a piece of land for them self.

One of the reason I wanna avoid the abduction is that I want the devastation to the area to be limited, Denmarks population at this point is at an all time high. So if the population collapse can be avoided, Denmark can potentially have 100 years more growth until the black death hits.

If the Danes triumph in the Battle of Mölln they have quite another situation vis-a-vis the rebels in which they may agree to some kind of deal in return for releasing the king and elected heir though in this scenario the Danish nobility may wiev the outcome of the matter as a result of their actions and not be so inclined to support inheritance to a line needing their support in dire times!
Of course you could following the release of the king and heir have Valdemar being victorious and the nobility bleed paving the way for the kings scheme.

The Nobility will stay strong for the foreseeable future especially with Valdemar II having to delegate land to his 3 sons and two bastard sons, but they don't need that prestigious titles. and those 3 sons were one of the reason the decay happened, so they are probably gonna be trouble anyways...

Or having the nobility think now this is a good time for independence and refuse payment following the defeat of Mölln then let the Pope engineer the release of the king and heir and then Valdemar taking revenge upon his return beheading the unruly lot! I actually like this last outcome.

Valdemar II had an excellent relation with the Pope, sounds like a really interesting pod!

 

[Jammy]

7-8 years and you didn't make a TL yet? Wow I literally made my account for the sake of posting a TL, to each their own I guess and I wish you luck in your endeavor and will give you a few tips:

I joined over 10 years ago and haven't ever made a TL. I know what my strengths are for example and i don't think a TL would be one - I'm more than happy to help others and be a sounding board or a reader to help grammar and spelling etc. but the actually sitting down and getting on with it, i know i wouldn't really manage it.

Don't think it really matters that much.

 

[Bastiram]

I joined over 10 years ago and haven't ever made a TL. I know what my strengths are for example and i don't think a TL would be one - I'm more than happy to help others and be a sounding board or a reader to help grammar and spelling etc. but the actually sitting down and getting on with it, i know i wouldn't really manage it.

Don't think it really matters that much.

Yea always thought I would never do a tl because in my opinion my writing is not perfect. But on the other hand I have always wanted to do a proper tl. So since I don't have many exams in January I have time to research and write something

 

[arctic warrior]

If you avoid the abduction which seems the obvious then you still have the slow change to society to work around and the experience of the cadet branch in charge of Slesvig should be something to avoid in the future hence why not give the younger sons too much to govern.

Let the Rugians and Pommeranians stay loyal after all they are on the fringes of empire and will recognize the advantage of a strong but distant lord and hold off the onslaught till the Pope is able to do his magic; then let Valdemar loose.

Still you have to change the inheritance customs and I don't at the moment have a clue as how to do that.

Another thing; young Valdemar would be married to Eleanor of Portugal. They had a daughter which died 6 months old. Portugal and Denmark had very good relations both kings being Vassals of St. Peter and the cousin of Eleanor/ brother of queen Berengaria being the count of Flanders; however his marriage to Joan of Flanders too produced one daughter. This of course doesn't need to happen here as young Valdemar may well outlive Eleanor and have to find another queen who will produce an heir.

However royalty being royalty Valdemar II may have to thread lightly on the inheritance of the sons of queen Berengaria (of Portugal!) who might find a way to get rid of Valdemar (III) once Valdemar II have passed away.

Does have the potential of an interesting TL. Do go on with it.

 

[Bastiram]

If you avoid the abduction which seems the obvious then you still have the slow change to society to work around and the experience of the cadet branch in charge of Slesvig should be something to avoid in the future hence why not give the younger sons too much to govern.

Let the Rugians and Pommeranians stay loyal after all they are on the fringes of empire and will recognize the advantage of a strong but distant lord and hold off the onslaught till the Pope is able to do his magic; then let Valdemar loose.

Still you have to change the inheritance customs and I don't at the moment have a clue as how to do that.

Another thing; young Valdemar would be married to Eleanor of Portugal. They had a daughter which died 6 months old. Portugal and Denmark had very good relations both kings being Vassals of St. Peter and the cousin of Eleanor/ brother of queen Berengaria being the count of Flanders; however his marriage to Joan of Flanders too produced one daughter. This of course doesn't need to happen here as young Valdemar may well outlive Eleanor and have to find another queen who will produce an heir.

However royalty being royalty Valdemar II may have to thread lightly on the inheritance of the sons of queen Berengaria (of Portugal!) who might find a way to get rid of Valdemar (III) once Valdemar II have passed away.

Does have the potential of an interesting TL. Do go on with it.

Probably gonna change the marriage it first happened after the POD, hopefully I can find something closer. Maybe a polish princess of some sort ?
I think Valdemar the youngs brothers will be very very handy in the inheritance customs, if they act as they did historical (civil war between them)

By the way, toying with one of the brothers to found a city named after their mother. Berengariaborg? Berengariaby... any suggestions ?

 

[kasumigenx]

Eleanor of Portugal is a relative of John I of England, so is Joan, the Countess of Flanders.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

Another thought I have is that Hamburg and Lübeck will be part of the Kingdom, and to avoid having them part of the duchies, I would like to keep them as "free cities", do you think the inclusion of this concept would open up for more free cities in the further?

Hamburg and Lübeck are Imperial Free Cities; it would be a major deviation for them to become part of an external kingdom. Presumably Holstein as well - it is exceeding unlikely that the cities would become (and continue as) Danish exclaves inside the HRE. Holstein was a possession of the Danish crown, but was very definitely an HRE fiefdom, not part of Denmark. Note the enormous effort expended by France over hundreds of years to acquire Lorraine and Alsace from the HRE.

 

[Bastiram]

Hamburg and Lübeck are Imperial Free Cities; it would be a major deviation for them to become part of an external kingdom. Presumably Holstein as well - it is exceeding unlikely that the cities would become (and continue as) Danish exclaves inside the HRE. Holstein was a possession of the Danish crown, but was very definitely an HRE fiefdom, not part of Denmark. Note the enormous effort expended by France over hundreds of years to acquire Lorraine and Alsace from the HRE.

In 1216 everything north of the Elbe river were given legally by the Emperor to the Danish king via a Goldenbull, both Hamburg (at this time a Free city) and Lübeck (which only got proclaimed an imperial city in 1226) is under Danish control and is recognized as such by the Emperor

 

[arctic warrior]

Probably gonna change the marriage it first happened after the POD, hopefully I can find something closer. Maybe a polish princess of some sort ?
I think Valdemar the youngs brothers will be very very handy in the inheritance customs, if they act as they did historical (civil war between them)

By the way, toying with one of the brothers to found a city named after their mother. Berengariaborg? Berengariaby... any suggestions ?

You seems to have some interesting ideas; looking forward to the timeline.

The mother was called Bengerd by the Danes; how about Bengerdsrød/Bengerndsborg/Bengerdsted/Benstrup - a late corruption/Bengerdbjerg which may corrupt to Benbjerg