Peaceful, multi-racial South Africa
- Thread starter Marius
- Start date
The Sandman
Banned
Smash the Boers more thoroughly in the Boer War. With the Boers still in control in South Africa, I don't really see how you can avoid the specter of apartheid.
I read a scenario in Changing the Times where Lower Rhodesia narrowly votes to join the Union of South Africa in 1922 (the referendum narrowly failed in OTL)....this adds a huge influx of English colonists to the South Africa, and greatly strengthens Jan Smutts.
Upper Rhodesia eventually joins as well....this turns the National Party into a completely fringe group....Herzog never gains power. In WWII, the idea of staying neutral and/or joining the Axis is never even considered. South Africa contributes even more heavily to the Allies than in OTL, and helps to end the North African campaign more quickly.
After the war, South Africa becomes a staunch ally of the USA in the Cold War....the native groups in South Africa gain the francise as the decades pass....in this TL, South Africa is no more racist than the other British African colonies. After WWII, more British immigrants go to South Africa, rather to Australia or Canada. I forget wether South Africa ever absorbs Mozambique and/or Angola when they break with Portugal.
By the present day, South Africa is by far the wealthiest nation in Africa. With no Apartheid-era embargo, full economic development of the vast mineral resources is allowed to occur. South Africa remains a model of democracy in Africa, and has an increasingly bright future ahead of it.
That's the gist of the scenario as I remember it.
Upper Rhodesia eventually joins as well....this turns the National Party into a completely fringe group....Herzog never gains power. In WWII, the idea of staying neutral and/or joining the Axis is never even considered. South Africa contributes even more heavily to the Allies than in OTL, and helps to end the North African campaign more quickly.
After the war, South Africa becomes a staunch ally of the USA in the Cold War....the native groups in South Africa gain the francise as the decades pass....in this TL, South Africa is no more racist than the other British African colonies. After WWII, more British immigrants go to South Africa, rather to Australia or Canada. I forget wether South Africa ever absorbs Mozambique and/or Angola when they break with Portugal.
By the present day, South Africa is by far the wealthiest nation in Africa. With no Apartheid-era embargo, full economic development of the vast mineral resources is allowed to occur. South Africa remains a model of democracy in Africa, and has an increasingly bright future ahead of it.
That's the gist of the scenario as I remember it.
srv fan said:
Yes, but IIRC there's a tremendous amount of violent crime and white people are leaving the country in large numbers.
Plus there are kooks who are saying "when Mandela dies, we will kill you whites like flies."
Marius said:
I take it you saw my recent TL on the Calvinistic superpower in SA.
You're welcome to comment on it. As a real live South African, your opinions on how such a state (essentially a much earlier, much larger Boer settlement) would be valuable.
MerryPrankster said:
Thanks.....
Like I said, it's not mine, (I found it on Changing the Times)....but it seemed to worth bringing up....The Sandman
Banned
Yes, but the British eventually got tired of it and left. The Boers stuck with it until they were forced to change.
Of course, multi-racial doesn't necessarily imply any significant number of whites...so what if the British do some form of population exchange following the Boer War? Send the troublesome Boers somewhere else in the Empire, and move in other restless natives: Australian Aborigines, any rebellious elements in India, and so on. It's fairly unpleasant as solutions go, but we are talking the Britain of 1900, not the Britain of 2000.
Of course, multi-racial doesn't necessarily imply any significant number of whites...so what if the British do some form of population exchange following the Boer War? Send the troublesome Boers somewhere else in the Empire, and move in other restless natives: Australian Aborigines, any rebellious elements in India, and so on. It's fairly unpleasant as solutions go, but we are talking the Britain of 1900, not the Britain of 2000.
The Sandman
Banned
Yes, but it would be an anti-English morass, especially since there simply wouldn't be enough whites to do any level of effective oppression once the British began their great pullback from the colonies. And how willing would the British be to tolerate a more thoroughly English South Africa going the way of the OTL one?
Hell, you could make it a dumping ground for the various troublesome minorities of other European nations too; I'm sure the British would be willing to take the Herero, or the Algerians, or the Javans, for a reasonable fee of course. And if you make sure that no one population can ever dominate the others, you can keep the area relatively placid.
Hell, you could make it a dumping ground for the various troublesome minorities of other European nations too; I'm sure the British would be willing to take the Herero, or the Algerians, or the Javans, for a reasonable fee of course. And if you make sure that no one population can ever dominate the others, you can keep the area relatively placid.
Shift the balance of the white electorate by having a bigger Jewish influx (There having been no Balfour declaration and far fewer Jews going to Palestine)
The Nationalists are defeated in 1948. A move is made to change the franchise to one based on education and beter education offered to Black AFricans
By 1980 a more equal society introduces adult suffrage
The Nationalists are defeated in 1948. A move is made to change the franchise to one based on education and beter education offered to Black AFricans
By 1980 a more equal society introduces adult suffrage
HueyLong
Banned
Why would more Jews come to South Africa, even if there is no Balfour Declaration? A harsh, Calvinist environment (not at all welcoming to even secular or Christian Jews), with educated positions already filled by Boers and Anglos and unskilled filled with Indians, Malays and Africans.
Besides, Jews have been just as racially intolerant as any other "white" race In America, where they were accepted as equals and as whites, they were just as racist as the nest American.
If the Jews not going to Palestine go anywhere, its to America.
Besides, Jews have been just as racially intolerant as any other "white" race In America, where they were accepted as equals and as whites, they were just as racist as the nest American.
If the Jews not going to Palestine go anywhere, its to America.
White doesn't go north of the Tugela, Buller arrives and drives straight into the Orange Free state as he had planned to.
Buller captures Bloemfontein and is able to advance north and capture the bulk of the Boer army before they can retreat across the Vaal.
Buller realises that defeating the Boers in the field is more important that capturing the capitals and he is able to capture the bulk of the rest of the Boer forces.
The Boers having lost the bulk of their forces surrender and Britain imposes peace terms that give Britain control over the colonies and make the franchise colour blind.
There will still be attempts to gerrymander voting and racial discrimination outside of voting but as long as the franchise starts off colour blind (and has to stay that way) then Africa will have a much smoother transition to a proper democracy.
Buller captures Bloemfontein and is able to advance north and capture the bulk of the Boer army before they can retreat across the Vaal.
Buller realises that defeating the Boers in the field is more important that capturing the capitals and he is able to capture the bulk of the rest of the Boer forces.
The Boers having lost the bulk of their forces surrender and Britain imposes peace terms that give Britain control over the colonies and make the franchise colour blind.
There will still be attempts to gerrymander voting and racial discrimination outside of voting but as long as the franchise starts off colour blind (and has to stay that way) then Africa will have a much smoother transition to a proper democracy.
HueyLong said:
In OTL significant numbers of Jews did go to South Africa and were amongst teh most prominent white opponents of Apartheid. Add to that the fact that the Nationalist party had links to Nazis...
HueyLong said:
Considering that my family is South African Jews, I must question three of your statements.
First, Jews often times went into professions that they excel at in other western countries namely the law, medical fields, and businesses. It's no different from other countries.
Secondly, America had a immigration quota until the 1960s. If Jews couldn't get to America, they would often attempt to move to other countries like Australia or South Africa.
Thirdly, most Jews were not rascist, and Jews were a large percentage of the whites working in the Civil Rights Movement. Some were even killed like Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner.
Perhaps this article on Wikipedia can help enlighten you....
Jews and the Civil Rights Movement
Actually, Helen Suzman, a famous anti-apartheid legislator, was Jewish. For many years, she was the only anti-apartheid MP in the South African Parliament.
HueyLong
Banned
Why does everyone throw all blame on the Boers? The English planted the roots of apartheid just as much as the Great Trek did. It would take a major change in their thinking to prevent the establishment of apartheid. Their tradition of limited suffrage, transplanted in a racially split environment, lent itself to white rule. After all, the whites were wealthier, better educated, and thereby, well qualified to rule. The Blacks and Coolies weren't.
The thing is, they have no reason to make suffrage color blind. In fact, it goes against their colonial policies to do so. It removes the Coolies as cheap servants, it angers the South African Anglos and Boers, and threatens the stability of their other African colonies.
The British were racist and undemocratic at the time. You can't expect their modern ideals to step in. They needed to appease the Boers, and their own settlers, because they had power and were white. They would have no reason to treat everyone as racial equals, because that idea was not yet there.
The change would have to come way before the Boer War. In English controlled territories, Africans weren't equal, and the system was not color blind.
HueyLong said:
The British were interested in imposing a colour blind franchise (and one already existed in the Cape) in the new colonies, they didn't because their victory wasn't as crushing as they would have liked to be.
Make it that crushing and a colour blind franchise is forced on the two new colonies.
There is a difference between setting the bar to keep most blacks out and just making it so no blacks could vote.
The Boer republics had the latter, the Cape colony the former.
In the Cape colony before a literacy test was introduced ¼ of the voters were non white, by 1900 there was a coloured member of parliament and so on.
If it had been a franchise based upon property and/or education then blacks would have naturally gained ground (and they would also be of a socio-economic background that they are likely to vote in a sensible manner) and eventually they would have all gotten in.
That doesn’t hold up considering that making the new colonies have a colour blind franchise was exactly what they had intended to do, eventually it was stated in the treaty that blacks would get the vote after self governance was restored (which of course would never happen).
Chamberlain said it made a mockery of one of their primary reasons for going to war (Boer treatment of the natives).
An India or Africa could move to Britain, buy a house and vote (Britain even got a few Indian MP’s around this time), the British franchise was colour blind and they were interested in ensuring it was the same within their colonies.
It doesn’t have to be equal it just doesn’t have to be a strict colour bar.