Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

Well Thrace could be taken, the Black sea is still free as the Greek navy would have other priorities and the Soviets are "allied" to the Axis. Maybe even directly from the Soviets.
I honestly doubt Stalin would allow supplies to Turkey. Considering the amount of Naval assets the Allies have, unless Stalin literally decides to fight the Allies, there's not going to be any material support to Turkey till Constantine/East Thrace is taken at the very least.

Plus, Im pretty sure Turkey would be stuck in a two-front war too.
 
Absolutely. What I mean it the german credit has limits, more restricted limits than french or british credit.
Oh certainly. The last German credit as mentioned in part 48 was 150 million marks offered (and accepted) in August 1938, 40% of it for military equipment. At 1938 exchange rates that's 11 million pounds, 4.4 million of it for arms. By comparison the British credits in 1938 had been 16 million, 6 million of it for armaments.

I did not doubt the ability of Turey to import the needed arms from Germany. Due to the smaller economy and Germany taking a a greater percentage of turish imports, I doubt the turkish ability to import e.g. significant amounts of US machinery, tractors and automobiles during the Interwar. At the same time, they needed to invest more money in settling more refugees compared to OTL.

I think it is mentioned before, that Turkey needs somewhat greater quantities of military supplies compared to OTL, as more artillery and machine guns were lost in the ATL Greco-Turkish War, while they didn't capture greek equipment.
Lets put it in this way. In OTL 1941 Turkey was able to mobilize 1.3 million men, that had ehm severe gaps in equipment, as far as I can tell after French arms deliveries in 1939-40 the Turkish army had at hand ~755,000 rifles, 6,250 machine guns (half lacking spares), 24,000 LMGs and 200 mortars in addition to 1736 guns in field artillery. TTL Turkey is not in position to match this at the moment and mobilizing unarmed men makes mostly no sense.

This is of major economic significance. It means that the chromite ore of Elazig cannot be exploited. In OTL, during the late 30s, the Guleman Company produced 60-70k tons of chromite ore in Elazig. The total production was estimated at 170-220k tons. It seems to me that the total chromite production will be 1/3 smaller than OTL.
The line had been primary built to serve the Ergani copper mines in Diyarbakir. Post that I'll note again that, the railroad network can be expanded with sufficient labour around and I don't see why Turkey wouldn't be doing so. After all if the Turkish army in 1941 is notably smaller it also means that quite a few of the reservists can be used for construction work instead. How fast could a railway be built? Construction of the transcontinental railroad averaged about 1.5 km a day I believe. For a different example the Japanese built the Burma railroad in 397 days in 1942-43. That's 1.045 km a day over problematic terrain, Eastern Anatolia wouldn't be much more difficult than Burma...

So, it begins!

I still feel a bit weird that Greece didn't join the Yugoslav defense earlier and they joined only after Monastir was ceded. It doesn't feel like an ally but an opportunist. I see though why they didn't involve themselves earlier.
Truth to tell, by this point they would had jumped even if the Yugoslavs had not ceded Monastir. But Monastir always loomed very big on Dragoumis (and the rest of the family) mind, probably clouding his judgement. And he was not the only one. Frex on the Liberal side you had people like Georgios Modis himself a native of Monastir, while the thing was also part of public consciousness, Myrivilis in his "Life in the Tomb" has a scene where soldiers of the Archipelago Division, all Venizelists volunteers that march to Monastir to fight the Germans and Bulgarians are shocked when the local Greeks are asking to save them... from their Serb oppressors. With a "but haven't we volunteers to stand by the side of our Serb allies?"

How much Yugoslavia is left unoccupied? I got the idea that Kosovo, North Macedonia (hmmm) and Montenegro are still free.
Not much and the Serbs, by now it's definitely the Serbs in all but name, are in headlong retreat.
So this WW2 is vastly different. The Italians used way less units OTL in the invasion of Greece and now they have a million men and if you count the Bulgarians and Hungarians that goes even higher. I can't see the Italian positions in Albania hold but on the other hand maybe that front is a secondary to the Macedonian one.
Closer to three quarters of a million for the Italians but they are not committing men and divisions piecemeal, by March 1941 in OTL their army in Albania had grown to about 550,000 men after having suffered over 100,000 casualties. The Hungarians likely will not be taking part in operations against Greece but will likely still provide occupation troops in Serbia, at least for the time being.

The Greek airforce would be a huge help and should be involved earlier, it would have helped immensely. Romania is a wildcard here. If they find a common ground with the Soviets they could turn their back and demand the lost territories back or else! Well or else Germany invades them so I don't know where I'm going with this...
German troops have already entered Romania. Romania DID fight the Soviets for Moldavia, making changing sides all the more difficult.
The Turks are in a weird situation. I mean the French are on their border and a two front war seems inevitable if they attack Greece and they would need maybe 75% of their Army to take the Smyrna fortress. They would have Aerial superiority if the Greeks focus on Macedonia or if they take damage there. The British might be a help as OTL they sent almost 300K troops, I think, and ITTL they have French help in both naval and aerial fronts. Maybe the focus is shifted away from Egypt as OTL and more to the Balkans and Middle East , with the Iraqi coup down the line as well.
Te Turks have... many risks and just as many opportunities. They have territorial demands on checks, Greece, Syria, Iraq and the Soviet Union. In all four there are people who hate them but also people who would receive them as liberators. Then enter into the play Arab nationalists. Who have reasons to be suspicious of Sivas but also reasons to cooperate with it, the Great Syrian revolt for example did have some Turkish support already...

If Greece is fighting how would any material support by the Germans and Italians reach Turkey? The Black Sea?
To Costanza or Burgas and from there by ship to Samsun.
I honestly doubt Stalin would allow supplies to Turkey. Considering the amount of Naval assets the Allies have, unless Stalin literally decides to fight the Allies, there's not going to be any material support to Turkey till Constantine/East Thrace is taken at the very least.

Plus, Im pretty sure Turkey would be stuck in a two-front war too.
Bringing in allied warships in the Black sea runs the danger of being cut off there of course. The Turkish army already holds Uskudar after all. Stalin... Stalin is at this point technically on the side of the Axis and doing everything he can to avoid antagonizing them. Blockading the Black sea certainly comes under the antagonizing part...
 
Bringing in allied warships in the Black sea runs the danger of being cut off there of course. The Turkish army already holds Uskudar after all. Stalin... Stalin is at this point technically on the side of the Axis and doing everything he can to avoid antagonizing them. Blockading the Black sea certainly comes under the antagonizing part...
How does Stalin see Axis Turkey and an axis sphere of influence stretching all the way into eastern Anatolia as anything but a provocation? Once Greece is crushed, it's a dagger aimed at the Soviet Union. I'd argue that Stalin has been too passive in all of this if anything.
 
How does Stalin see Axis Turkey and an axis sphere of influence stretching all the way into eastern Anatolia as anything but a provocation? Once Greece is crushed, it's a dagger aimed at the Soviet Union. I'd argue that Stalin has been too passive in all of this if anything.
Stalin was too passive in otl
 
Interlude Evolution of the Greek army 1922-1940
1921-22

At the time of the final armistice between the Entente powers and the Turkish Grand National Assembly in late 1921 the Greek army had reached 15 infantry and 1 cavalry divisions, with roughly 353,000 men under arms. Of these 12 infantry as well as the single cavalry division, organized under the A, B and Smyrna Army Corps, where serving with the Army of Asia Minor. In Europe the Army of Thrace, controlled the Serres and XIV Infantry divisions, covering the extensive border between Greece and Bulgaria while a single division the VIII Infantry served in Epirus and would briefly see action against Albanian militias when the League of Nations ceded North Epirus to Greece. Peacetime and the demobilization would see the A and B Army Corps returning to their peacetime bases in Old Greece leaving the Smyrna Army Corps, augmented by the Crete Division in wartime, in Asia Minor. The Army of Thrace was renamed the D Army Corps and C Army Corps was reconstituted in Thessaloniki initially controlling the IX infantry division, also in Thessaloniki, and the VIII infantry division in Argyrokastron. In case of war with either Turkey or Bulgaria the 6 infantry divisions of the A and B Army Corps following mobilization would reinforce either Asia Minor or Macedonia and Thrace. The Cavalry division while retained was effectively split with one of its brigades in Smyrna and one in Thessaloniki.

Evolution in the 1923-28 period

With increasing numbers of trained manpower becoming gradually available, as the newly liberated Greek populations passed through conscription, by 1928 the army would expand to 18 infantry and 2 cavalry divisions. One more army corps, the E would be formed in Panormos (Bandirma) in Asia Minor covering the north of Asiatic Greece, with the size of each army corps normalized to 3 infantry divisions. In the case of the cavalry each of the two cavalry brigades was expanded to division size with one division in Thessaloniki and one in Smyrna. Notably for the cavalry, special arrangements had been made with the Circassian community for Circassians to serve preferentially in the cavalry, the 4th Cavalry brigade in Asia Minor would remain majority Circassian all the way to 1940. In view of the Corfu incident in 1923, Corfu was permanently garrisoned by an independent regimental combat team, formed by the 10th infantry regiment.

Evolution in the 1929-32 period


The brief Stratos interlude in government is usually remembered for its effect on the navy, with the construction of Salamis, but also saw changes for the army. The most notable was what was called "the great renaming", with nearly all "Venizelist" names purged from army formations. The Serres, Xanthi, Kydonies, Smyrna and Magnesia divisions would be all renamed and only extreme reaction both within and outside the army would same the Crete and Archipelago divisions and their constituent regiments as well as the Smyrna Army Corps from renaming. Otherwise under assistant minister Gouvelis the four Euzone regiments of the army were paired into two mountain brigades mimicking French practice with Chasseur Alpins units and the 1st tank regiment, soon to be renamed armoured regiment was formed as part of the cavalry.

Evolution to 1940

With Greece, like every other European country preparing for war, in the years between 1935 and 1940, 6 more infantry divisions are formed with each of the 6 corps of the army controlling 4 divisions, proposals to form two more Army Corps remain still in the planning stage in 1940 not least due to the need to provide a core of trained staff officers in addition to support assets from heavy artillery to engineers and signal units which are not yet available. By November 1940 the II Cavalry division is the sole mechanized formation of the Greek army, following French practice it consists of an armoured brigade massing R35, MkVI and Vickers 6t tanks available to Greece, and a cavalry brigade that has been motorized. With both cavalry divisions in Europe, two horse cavalry brigades are serving with the army of Asia Minor. Potential Turkish and Italian hostility mean, a need to garrison in addition to Corfu several of the Eastern Aegean islands. A regiment sized forces are in Lesvos and Samos, battalion sized forces hold Lemnos, Tenedos and Chios.

Greek army Order of Battle, November 7th, 1940

GHQ, Athens (Theodore Pangalos, deputy chief Alexandros Othonaios)
  • 1st Army, Thessaloniki (Dimitrios Katheniotis)
    • B Corps (Alexandros Merenditis)
      • III Infantry Division, Patras (Georgios Tsolakoglou)
      • IV Infantry Division, Nauplion (Emmanuel Mantakas)
      • VIII Infantry Division, Argyrokastron (Nikolaos Plastiras)
      • XIV Infantry Division, Kalamata (Napoleon Zervas)
      • 10th Infantry Regiment, Corfu (Thasymboulos Tsakalotos)
    • C Corps (Theodore Manetas)
      • IX Infantry Division, Thessaloniki (Georgios Papastergiou)
      • XV Infantry Division, Serres (Demetrios Giantzis)
      • XIX Infantry Division, Veroia (Christos Karassos)
      • XXII Infantry Division, Drama (Sergios Gyalistras)
    • D Corps (Demetrios Kammenos)
      • VI Infantry Division, Adrianople (Emmanuel Tzanakakis)
      • XII Infantry Division, Xanthi (Konstantinos Bakopoulos)
      • XX Infantry Division, Raidestos (Ioannis Kotoulas)
      • XXI Infantry Division, Alexandroupolis (Markos Drakos)
    • 1st Cavalry Division (Ioannis Tsaggaridis)
    • 2nd Cavalry Division (Sokratis Demaratos)
    • 1st Mountain Brigade (Demetrios Psarros)
    • 2nd Mountain Brigade (Sotirios Moutousis)
  • Army of Asia Minor (Ptolemaios Sarigiannis)
    • Smyrna Army Corps, Smyrna (Euthymios Tsimikalis)
      • VII Infantry Division, Philadelpheia (Ignatios Kallergis)
      • X Infantry Division, Magnesia (Panagiotis Spiliotopoulos)
      • XI Infantry Division, Smyrna (Ioannis Alexakis)
      • XVII Infantry Division, Aidini (Georgios Kosmas)
      • 4th Cavalry brigade (Leonidas Spaes)
    • E Army Corps, Panormos (Ioannis Pitsikas)
      • V Infantry division, Panormos (Konstantinos Ventiris)
      • XVI Infantry division, Kydoniai (Georgios Stanotas)
      • XVIII Infantry division, Palaiokastron (Efstathios Liosis)
      • Archipelago division, Lesvos (Charalambos Katsimitros)
      • 5th Cavalry brigade (Amdreas Kallinskis)
    • 10th Archipelago Infantry Regiment, Samos
    • 75th Infantry Regiment, Lesvos
  • A Corps (Alexandros Papagos)
    • I Infantry Division, Larisa (Basileios Brachnos)
    • II Infantry Division, Athens (Euripidis Bakirtzis)
    • XIII Infantry Division, Chalkis (Stefanos Sarafis)
    • Crete Division, Khanea (Georgios Dromazos)
 
The line had been primary built to serve the Ergani copper mines in Diyarbakir. Post that I'll note again that, the railroad network can be expanded with sufficient labour around and I don't see why Turkey wouldn't be doing so. After all if the Turkish army in 1941 is notably smaller it also means that quite a few of the reservists can be used for construction work instead. How fast could a railway be built? Construction of the transcontinental railroad averaged about 1.5 km a day I believe. For a different example the Japanese built the Burma railroad in 397 days in 1942-43. That's 1.045 km a day over problematic terrain, Eastern Anatolia wouldn't be much more difficult than Burma...

As I see it, the major butterfly is the lost income in the 1936-1941 period. The Elazig railway was finished at 1934 and the mines started producing major quantities of ore at 1936. Thus I think the lost exports are significant. Moreover, the Makri mines will be controlled by Italy. The Italians would want to provide their industry with chromite and stockpile ore. I am under the impression that if the consumption rates in the source I provided are correct, then the Axis may have an issue with chrome regardless of the Elazig mines production. By the time they will start full scale production, the Allies will enjoy air superiority and they could bomb the turkish transport network. The railway itself can be built in months, but I cannot see the mines to start producing significant amounts before early 1942.

Thank you for the detailed presentation of the development of the Greek Army and the list of commanders. Both Republican and Royalist talent is included. I have so many comments on the officers, but I think it would be tiring for most readers. In short: well done!
 
Wait. Did I count 26 full divisions? and 2-3 more division as brigades and regiments splashed around? I think that is pretty impressive. Are all of those well equipped? Or at least have minimal deficiencies.
 
As I see it, the major butterfly is the lost income in the 1936-1941 period. The Elazig railway was finished at 1934 and the mines started producing major quantities of ore at 1936. Thus I think the lost exports are significant. Moreover, the Makri mines will be controlled by Italy. The Italians would want to provide their industry with chromite and stockpile ore. I am under the impression that if the consumption rates in the source I provided are correct, then the Axis may have an issue with chrome regardless of the Elazig mines production. By the time they will start full scale production, the Allies will enjoy air superiority and they could bomb the turkish transport network. The railway itself can be built in months, but I cannot see the mines to start producing significant amounts before early 1942.

Thank you for the detailed presentation of the development of the Greek Army and the list of commanders. Both Republican and Royalist talent is included. I have so many comments on the officers, but I think it would be tiring for most readers. In short: well done!
Especially if Turkey uses "free" labor
 
The question is:
Would the Greeks (after saving whatever possible of the Serbian Army) turn first against Bulgaria, or Italian Albania in order to obstruct the Italian plans?
What about the Allied troops of Constantinople? 175000 can potentially swiftly move in Thrace towards Burgas and/or Plovdiv while the Greeks move towards Sofia. Even if (inevitably) with the German Intervention and the Italians holding Yugoslavia north of Macedonia, it would be almost impossible to hold Bulgaria, the destruction of a large portion of the Bulgarian Army would be a great plus for the war effort.

Now, aside from all aspirations (and hopes) for a sustainable Balkan Front, even if mainland Greece is eventually overrun by the Axis, the final outcome of WWII for the Greeks would be good, if not great:

1. Turkey is sooner or later going down and the stain for the collaboration with the Axis will determine the international community's attitude towards her for decades.
2. Cyprus is definatelly and unconditionally (apart from British bases) going to be ceded to Greece.
3. Even if it's overrun, Greece will fight on. The political system is also not scorned for the Greeks, so if resistance rises, the KKE will have only a small part of it. Political turmoil after the liberation would be more like a small irritation, and Civil War is out of question.
4. All in all, Greece's position in the post-war/Cold War Era will be much, much improved and prosperity for all the Greeks ensured.
 
As I see it, the major butterfly is the lost income in the 1936-1941 period. The Elazig railway was finished at 1934 and the mines started producing major quantities of ore at 1936. Thus I think the lost exports are significant. Moreover, the Makri mines will be controlled by Italy. The Italians would want to provide their industry with chromite and stockpile ore.

I'll stick by my notes here https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-broken-vehicles.494608/page-34#post-21840231 Makri is producing just too much for the Italian industry to use. With Italian chrome needs around 20,000t a year it's producing something in the order of 70-80,000t per year. Even with stockpiling, you go to the 32,000t the Italians imported in 1938. The rest has to go elsewhere. Actually if someone looks where the Turkish exports went in 1937-38 and assuming Italy and Germany have priority on exports between politics and clearing agreements who's affected the most?

In TTL 1937 we reduced Turkish exports from 198,000t to 132,000t. US imports were 45,639t, French imports 19,899t, Swedish imports 45,389t, Norway 8,061t (what the heck were the Norwegians doing with that much chrome? Nevermind), total 119,000. Assuming the lack of French exports was covered from Greece and Yugoslavia, and in turn Germany had to import an additional 20,000t from Turkey instead... why the exports to US, Sweden and Norway hust dropped by two thirds from 99,000t to 33,000t. Similarly in TTL 1938 say we've reduced Turkish exports by 69,000t. Exports to USA, Sweden and Norway amounted to 72,000t. Where I Sweden I would be very concerned...

Further into the war it raises some interesting inter-axis diplomacy questions of course. Yugoslavia has been conquered by Italy and the Yugoslav chrome mines are around Skopje which would be getting annexed by Bulgaria. So the mines are Bulgarian with Italian compamies running the show instead of the Germans keeping them for themselves. Coupled with Makri it much improves the Italian, Turkish and Bulgarian bargaining position with Germany for arms and supplies...

I am under the impression that if the consumption rates in the source I provided are correct, then the Axis may have an issue with chrome regardless of the Elazig mines production. By the time they will start full scale production, the Allies will enjoy air superiority and they could bomb the turkish transport network. The railway itself can be built in months, but I cannot see the mines to start producing significant amounts before early 1942.
Lets look it from a different point. Forget railroads for a moment. 70-75,000t a year mean about 200t a day. Closest railhead would be Sivas 340km away. Assume you want to move as much daily by truck. That's slightly more than the distance the Red Ball express covered (316km). Further halve capacity due to worse roads, lack of drivers et all. From an average 2t/truck per day you are down to 0.93t/truck per day. So you need oh ~220 trucks daily to exploit the mines. Even by Balkan standards of the day it is not insurmountable... as long as you have the fuel, spare parts and spare trucks to run the operation.

Thank you for the detailed presentation of the development of the Greek Army and the list of commanders. Both Republican and Royalist talent is included. I have so many comments on the officers, but I think it would be tiring for most readers. In short: well done!
The balance is tilting towards Venizelists for obvious reasons, but any royalist that avoided finding himself out of the army in 1917-23... and Pangalos is ok with him... After all they controlled the government in 1928-32 and with Dragoumis in power he will want royalists pushed ahead with the new divisions. At a quick count both army commanders are Venizelists, so are 4 corps commanders, 12 division commanders and 2 brigade commanders. Add in the neutralists like Katsimitros... But feel free to comment I don't think anyone will mind!

Wait. Did I count 26 full divisions? and 2-3 more division as brigades and regiments splashed around? I think that is pretty impressive. Are all of those well equipped? Or at least have minimal deficiencies.
In OTL the 1934 mobilization plan under Katheniotis, was mobilizing 600,000 men in 214 battalions total (I include the cavalry) with 65 infantry regiments. The 1939 plan used by Papagos mobilized mobilized ~181 battalions and 56 infantry regiments, then during the war the initial 16 divisions mobilized reached 21. In his maligning of every single predecessor of his and particularly Katheniotis err I mean in his book on the pre-war preparation of the army, Papagos claims the 1934 plan could not be applied due to lack of officers and war material. A cynic notes for the first that the officers missing match in number... the republican officers he cashiered post March 1935 which he refused to accept back to the army. As for equipment the cynic in me notes that what he ended up mobilizing by April 1941 when the Greeks had about 550,000 men under arms overall wasn't that different from Katheniotis plan... after having taken ~60,000 combat casualties

TTL the Greeks are doing a variant of the OTL Katheniotis plan taking into account their population is roughly 20% higher mobilizing ~710,000 men in 254 battalions and 82 infantry regiments.

Especially if Turkey uses "free" labor
Turkey is not in the war yet. But counting on just her own population she has something around 250-300,000 reservists she cannot actually arm. Labour battalions were a well established part of the Turkish army... and not just in order to send undesirables there.
The question is:
Would the Greeks (after saving whatever possible of the Serbian Army) turn first against Bulgaria, or Italian Albania in order to obstruct the Italian plans?
What about the Allied troops of Constantinople? 175000 can potentially swiftly move in Thrace towards Burgas and/or Plovdiv while the Greeks move towards Sofia.
Closer to 60,000... but I think we are carried a bit away here. The Italians have committed 750-800,000 men in the Yugoslav campaign. Add 350,000 Bulgarians. Forget the Hungarians for the moment. That's about 1.1 million men. The allies, not counting the Yugoslavs have about 520,000 men in Europe, roughly a third of the Greek army is in Anatolia facing of the Turks...

Even if (inevitably) with the German Intervention and the Italians holding Yugoslavia north of Macedonia, it would be almost impossible to hold Bulgaria, the destruction of a large portion of the Bulgarian Army would be a great plus for the war effort.

Now, aside from all aspirations (and hopes) for a sustainable Balkan Front, even if mainland Greece is eventually overrun by the Axis, the final outcome of WWII for the Greeks would be good, if not great:

1. Turkey is sooner or later going down and the stain for the collaboration with the Axis will determine the international community's attitude towards her for decades.
This presumes Turkey doesn't just bring out the pop-corn and wait but it is a logical assumption if they join the war.
2. Cyprus is definatelly and unconditionally (apart from British bases) going to be ceded to Greece.
I wouldn't be entirely certain here. Granted there were people even within Britain strongly supporting this. But never discount British willingness to cling to territory. Of course even if Greece does not get Cyprus right away her position when the issue inevitably arises will be far stronger.
3. Even if it's overrun, Greece will fight on. The political system is also not scorned for the Greeks, so if resistance rises, the KKE will have only a small part of it. Political turmoil after the liberation would be more like a small irritation, and Civil War is out of question.
Most likely. After all you have an elected government with broad approval running the show here...
 
Is there a significant portion of the Turkish army Kurdish?and what about the reserves? Will turkey use the kurds as labor seeing that the kurds are not reliable?
 
Closer to 60,000... but I think we are carried a bit away here. The Italians have committed 750-800,000 men in the Yugoslav campaign. Add 350,000 Bulgarians. Forget the Hungarians for the moment. That's about 1.1 million men. The allies, not counting the Yugoslavs have about 520,000 men in Europe, roughly a third of the Greek army is in Anatolia facing of the Turks...


This presumes Turkey doesn't just bring out the pop-corn and wait but it is a logical assumption if they join the war.

I wouldn't be entirely certain here. Granted there were people even within Britain strongly supporting this. But never discount British willingness to cling to territory. Of course even if Greece does not get Cyprus right away her position when the issue inevitably arises will be far stronger.

Most likely. After all you have an elected government with broad approval running the show here...
Oops! Seems that I have an issue with the allied forces in Constantinople. Anyway, my point is that Greece might act like in OTL against Italy, ie take the initiative. The best way to do it is to try and knock out Bulgaria, while the Italian Army is disorganized. I mean, AFAIK and if I didn't miss a post, there is no significant POD to turn the Italian Army into a competent organization with great leaders. Invading a fragmented country which disintegrated from within is quite different from facing a stable and prospering opponent who also has a bunch of victorious veteran units and commanders. Moreover, I think that the Italians will need some time to establish their logistics in the new situation and consolidate their control over a large country as Yugoslavia, and therefore the Greeks and the Allies might have one chance to knock down Bulgaria. But of course, it's the author's right and privilege to choose the ways of his time line.

Concerning Turkey, yes, if they grab the popcorn it is a completely different story. But would they be content with whatever minor gains they can get from the Allies for just not entering the war?

About Cyprus, I was referring to what will happen (IMHO) but not necessarily to when.

Thank you for your remarks and yet another thrilling TL!
 
I think that the allied troops currently in Constantinople should stay in Constantinople and guard the city..is wonder if the British would station some bomers in Thessaloniki or more likely in limnos to bomb the romanian oil fields
 
I think that the allied troops currently in Constantinople should stay in Constantinople and guard the city..is wonder if the British would station some bomers in Thessaloniki or more likely in limnos to bomb the romanian oil fields
The Brits actually having somewhere that could quickly be developed into a base for bombing Romania early on would have BIG ramifications
 
Thats my thinking but Thessaloniki is to vulnerable i think most likely that lemnos is going to develop in a base and is about the same distance from ploesti as Thessaloniki
 
I think that the allied troops currently in Constantinople should stay in Constantinople and guard the city..is wonder if the British would station some bomers in Thessaloniki or more likely in limnos to bomb the romanian oil fields
Well, I guess the allied forces will stay in Constantinople, as any participation in the operation against Italy or Bulgaria will immediately draw the German response. That's something I oversaw in my previous post, I admit.
But then, the same will happen if the British start the strategic bombing of Ploesti from Greek soil, too soon.
In my opinion Greece and the Allies need to buy some time in order to build up their forces, before Germany intervenes.
On the other hand, should Greece be able to hold against Utaly and Bulgaria for - say- five or six months (even if withdrawing on some fronts), would the British use all their available might against the Italians in Libya, especially since Italy's forces will be way more tied down in the Balkans than in OTL?
Would this mean that the African Front will close much sooner and the Allies will put much more pressure on Vichy North Africa, which will change sides earlier?
Even if that means that mainland Greece is overrun by the Axis, in the long run it may prove better for the overall war effort.
 
Now I have very little knowledge of WW2 Balkan tactics, but I do know (based on EU4 tbh) that attacking in highlands and mountains is not the best unless you have the correct equipment and conditions. As such, I would assume that TTL Greek tactics would be to hold against invading forces along the Rhodope mountains, Upper Macedonia highlands and Northern Epirus while its Navy works its magic on Rhodos and pushing the Italians out of the Eastern Med with assistance from Perfidious Albion. I just cant see a battle plan that would work against a front from Durres in the West to Burgas in the East (sorry for using 1444 terms instead of 1942 lol). Even Byzantine offenses had a coin flip chance of working when attacking over the Haemic Mtn Range in Bulgaria, and TTL Greece is essentially in the same geopolitical position as OTL Byzantium post-manzikert.
 
In TTL the Free French control French West Africa, French Equatorial Africa, the Syria-Lebanon Mandate, Madagascar and the french pacific territories.

In OTL they got 50k men from West Africa and 15k men from Equatorial Africa. These numbers make a for a very neat distribution of 2 infantry divisions of 32,500 men per "division slice". There were at least some Regulars already there: I seem to recall the men of an artillery battery that had joined de Gaulle. Not many, but a few certainly.

Also, according to "Churchill's Secret Invasion: Britain s First Large Scale Combined Offensive 1942" by the Armistice, the French planned to send to Europe 72k Malagasy. I do not doubt that most of them would have been laborers and not soldiers. In any case, between the existing garrison and the green recruits, a Malagasy Division can be formed. In "Rearming the French" it was also mentioned that Madagascar produced a surplus of food, so at least some can be sent to the Levant.

We know that French Somaliland has an 8,000 men garrison. In OTL they managed to form a british-style brigade for the Free French.

I am really not sure how many reliable men can be provided by the Levant. My guess is that two "christian" divisions can be formed by the Maronites, Armenians and orthodox. With a hostile Turkey, the Maronites and Armenians may enlist en masse since the former will remember the Great Famine and the latter the Genocide. The Alevi have also their semi-autonomous state and they don't want the return of the Sunni landlords. If de Gaulle can promise greater autonomy, the Alevi have the incentive to provide an Alevi Division. The Kurds and Circassians can provide a Cavalry Division by expanding the existing cavalry units of the Troupes Speciales.

Overall, I am under the impression that the Free French have a manpower pool that can easily provide 6 infantry and 1 cavalry divisions and 1 infantry brigade. If added to the existing 3 divisions, de Gaulle will have a field army by 1942.

In TTL Béthouart's 3 brigades along with 15k other evacuee French, joined the Free French. These men can provide the officers, NCOs, specialists and corps-level troops for the aforementioned divisions. Of course, there will be Regulars from the existing garrisons as well.

I am under the impression that these men can be armed and trained by 1942. De Gaulle has the french gold. I sincerely doubt that the majority of the shiny metal will be actually spent. I find it more plausible that the gold will be sent as collateral to Canada and the british government will do the purchases in the name of the Free French.

In the short term, a significant percentage of the ~900 75mm guns sent in OTL to Britain can find their way to Beirut and Dakar.

Last but not least, @Lascaris what happened with Martinique and Guadeloupe? There is at least a french cruiser there will a goodly amount of gold.
 
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