Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

Serpent

Banned
One could really argue that the French wanted territory for their colonial mandate and the Turks just kept control of their own territory. I mean even before 1914 the Turks were a majority in Cilicia. I can't see why Turkey would lose that territory.


I think it is already stated by the author that Turkey is at 60-70%5 of OTL GDP at the moment. With the loss of Kurdistan and some eastern provinces besides some agriculture based economy, it won't be such a big loss. Losing some mountains is great at minimizing expenses on infrastructure. I agree on the whole industrialization with state oversight for Turkey as its main economic push, although that would require some fuel for said industry to run and that could get complicated quickly.

On the general discussion about the Greek borders post war I believe that Halicarnassus should 1000% be Greek or else we riot! :p That's all

That, the belief that this was a mutilated victory will be a HUGE thing in the aftermath of WWII in Greece, without Constantinople, Prusa, Chanakàle (not even Troy maybe?), and now Halicarnassus, then the Greek people are defo gonna riot lol
Hellas stood on its feet, the blood of our people must be honoured appropriately, or else their sacrifice has been for nothing!
 
That, the belief that this was a mutilated victory will be a HUGE thing in the aftermath of WWII in Greece, without Constantinople, Prusa, Chanakàle (not even Troy maybe?), and now Halicarnassus, then the Greek people are defo gonna riot lol
Hellas stood on its feet, the blood of our people must be honoured appropriately, or else their sacrifice has been for nothing!

France, a major power, also gained nothing from the war despite being occupied (like, they had Saar, temporarily, and an occupation zone in Germany).

If France lived with that Greece can also go suck it up and tolerate not gaining much.
 
France, a major power, also gained nothing from the war despite being occupied (like, they had Saar, temporarily, and an occupation zone in Germany).

If France lived with that Greece can also go suck it up and tolerate not gaining much.
We won Tende and La Brigue !
More importantly, we didn't let Roosevelt treat us as a loser or hand out Nord-Pas-de-Calais and Alsace-Lorraine to Belgium.
 
One could really argue that the French wanted territory for their colonial mandate and the Turks just kept control of their own territory. I mean even before 1914 the Turks were a majority in Cilicia. I can't see why Turkey would lose that territory.
I can see that point of view, and honestly it might end up that way. But seeing as how no axis member was able to keep any gains made between the two wars it feels like losing Cilicia would’ve been consistent with Allied actions in OTL. Not that the allies always acted consistently obviously, which is why if it ended up Turkish I wouldn’t be surprised. They are losing lots of land elsewhere as well so that could be argued as a balance. But the Germans lost plenty of German territory and everything German they gain during the interwar period as well. So I could see Cilicia being taken away as well, I’m just not sure what would be done with it.
France, a major power, also gained nothing from the war despite being occupied (like, they had Saar, temporarily, and an occupation zone in Germany).

If France lived with that Greece can also go suck it up and tolerate not gaining much.

Arguably free France in OTL did significantly less than she or Greece did TTL. That argument aside did the French even want any land post WW2 besides Saarland? That’s a legitimate question, because I’ve never heard of any French claims in Germany like I heard about the crazy Dutch ones.
 
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That, the belief that this was a mutilated victory will be a HUGE thing in the aftermath of WWII in Greece, without Constantinople, Prusa, Chanakàle (not even Troy maybe?), and now Halicarnassus, then the Greek people are defo gonna riot lol
Hellas stood on its feet, the blood of our people must be honoured appropriately, or else their sacrifice has been for nothing!
Considering who is Prime Minister, and Venizelos OTL stance on Bursa, you are not going to see a Greek demand for it.

IMHO absent the catastrophe the only territories that will pluck the chords of Greece are The City, Pontus, and Cyprus. And unfortunately none of those three are Turkey's to give. No Hallicarnasus, is going to make up for the loss of even one.

So yeah the average greek will consider it a mutilated victory, but the wrath is not going yo be on Turkey, but on the USSR or the UK or the US or all three. Greek politics are going to be producing some very unwise political ideas and people in the Cold War years. Hell, Ismet is betting on that.
 
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I can see that point of view, and honestly it might end up that way. But seeing as how no axis member was able to keep any gains made between the two wars it feels like losing Cilicia would’ve been consistent with Allied actions in OTL. Not that the allies always acted consistently obviously, which is why if it ended up Turkish I wouldn’t be surprised. They are losing lots of land elsewhere as well so that could be argued as a balance. But the Germans lost plenty of German territory and everything German they gain during the interwar period as well. So I could see Cilicia being taken away as well, I’m just not sure what would be done with it.


Arguably free France in OTL did significantly less than she or Greece did OTL. That argument aside did the French even want any land post WW2 besides Saarland? That’s a legitimate question, because I’ve never heard of any French claims in Germany like I heard about the crazy Dutch ones.
Yeah, outside of Kehl and the Sarre, there isn't much of Germany France would want to outright eat.
France is more interested in chunks of Italy like Aoste, the OTL adjustments in the Alpes, and maybe Tripolitania.
 
So yeah the average greek will consider it a mutilated victory, but the wrath is not going yo be on Turkey, but on the USSR or the UK or the US or all three. Greek politics are going to be producing some very unwise political ideas and people in the Cold War years. Hell, Ismet is betting on that.
The thing that no one on either side is betting on is the post-war nuke ossification of borders and factions. It’s going to be much harder for either Turkey or Greece to go to war with the other if nuclear annihilation is on the table. The Soviets are very, very likely to plop down nukes inside Turkish territory, and while I suspect Greece won’t be so lucky they’ll still almost certainly be part of NATO and still be protected by the nuclear umbrella.
 
That, the belief that this was a mutilated victory will be a HUGE thing in the aftermath of WWII in Greece, without Constantinople, Prusa, Chanakàle (not even Troy maybe?), and now Halicarnassus, then the Greek people are defo gonna riot lol
Hellas stood on its feet, the blood of our people must be honoured appropriately, or else their sacrifice has been for nothing!
"The blood will be exchanged with lebensraum? What are we Germans?" :openedeyewink:
France, a major power, also gained nothing from the war despite being occupied (like, they had Saar, temporarily, and an occupation zone in Germany).

If France lived with that Greece can also go suck it up and tolerate not gaining much.
Greece in 1945 wanted the Dodecanese, North Epirus, and parts of Bulgaria, hoped to get Cyprus. Some few, hoped for parts of Yugoslavia, East Thrace and... Cyrenaica. Well guess what, Greece got only the Dodecanese. It did not create much of a bother mid to long term. Well some over North Epirus, it had a Greek minority being maltreated after all, but the rest the average Greek didn't even remember they were ever claimed.
Arguably free France in OTL did significantly less than she or Greece did OTL. That argument aside did the French even want any land post WW2 besides Saarland? That’s a legitimate question, because I’ve never heard of any French claims in Germany like I heard about the crazy Dutch ones.
I actually wonder about that TTL. Free France did MUCH more robustly TTL. Does it potentially mean it actually gets Saar? What do people think? @jeandebueil ?
 
The thing that no one on either side is betting on is the post-war nuke ossification of borders and factions. It’s going to be much harder for either Turkey or Greece to go to war with the other if nuclear annihilation is on the table. The Soviets are very, very likely to plop down nukes inside Turkish territory, and while I suspect Greece won’t be so lucky they’ll still almost certainly be part of NATO and still be protected by the nuclear umbrella.
Long term TTL I would hardly be surprised to see nuclear prolifiteration here. Perhaps on the Israeli model, "no we don't have nukes, don't look so hard at these missiles hiding in the mountains" but both countries have plausible reasons to seek a nuclear deterrent and if one gets ukes the other is likely to follow.
 
So yeah the average greek will consider it a mutilated victory, but the wrath is not going yo be on Turkey, but on the USSR or the UK or the US or all three. Greek politics are going to be producing some very unwise political ideas and people in the Cold War years. Hell, Ismet is betting on that.
While I doubt there will be a mutilated victory case per se, I can see Greeks viewing their security from a different POV. I believe France will go on a similar path when it comes to "strategic autonomy" and it would make sense for Greece to develop close ties with France. Especially a France with less trauma than in OTL. I can see Greece to be strongly integrated to western institutions but at the same time be a party in a sub-bloc under french leadership.

Greece won't just inherit the role of OTL NATO Turkey, but it will have an elevated position since the Soviets will be an actor in the Straits themselves - in contrast to OTL. That allows a wiggle room somewhat similar to that of Egypt.

Lastly, I think a lot will depend whether we will have a Suez Crisis and how it will unravel.
 
"The blood will be exchanged with lebensraum? What are we Germans?" :openedeyewink:

Greece in 1945 wanted the Dodecanese, North Epirus, and parts of Bulgaria, hoped to get Cyprus. Some few, hoped for parts of Yugoslavia, East Thrace and... Cyrenaica. Well guess what, Greece got only the Dodecanese. It did not create much of a bother mid to long term. Well some over North Epirus, it had a Greek minority being maltreated after all, but the rest the average Greek didn't even remember they were ever claimed.

I actually wonder about that TTL. Free France did MUCH more robustly TTL. Does it potentially mean it actually gets Saar? What do people think? @jeandebueil ?
France OTL wanted both the Saar and the Val d'Aoste if possible. IMHO, the Saar is impossible because the population is clearly German and the Val d'Aoste was one of De Gaulle's mistakes. It basically was a land grab which led to a dubious offensive in the last days of the war, where French losses where far higher than the Germans and Italians. Ultimately, it led to nothing except pissing off the US.

If De Gaulle had been more calculating (and he proved many times he was a very capable politician), he may have asked for slightly more generous border "rectifications". It may very well worked since it was what happened in the Alps where France gained a couple of mountain passes. I even think that had De Gaulle not moved in the Val d'Aoste in April 1945, he might have gotten a bit more. Maybe not Aosta but villages and cities with a small population might have been granted east of Briançon and the Mount Blanc.
Same thing for the Saar. You cannot get Saarbrucken since it's the actual capital, but Saarlouis and Zweibrucken are possible. The latter is linked to French Marshall Maurice de Saxe and called "Deux Ponts" in the XVIIIth century and I let you guess after whom the former was named...
You might maayyybe grant a bridgehead east of the Rhine (Kehl and Brisach) on the pretext that this allows an easier "intervention" (i.e offensive) in case of a future war with Germany. In 1945, this point might pass as valid, but it will be irrelevant within a few years.

All of this to say that you may get a couple of strategic places for France, but nothing larger than a city. The overall population under French control would likely not exceed 150 000 people at the very most.

Elba might be a symbolic balm for French wounded pride. It doesn't cost much to Italy, Napoleon ruled it and if Tassigny or equivalent seized as OTL, the Wallies might be willing to give France that bone. After all, Yugoslavia got quite a lot.

NB: the Dutch plan was insane but more "reasonable" requests such as Borkum, Kleve and Emlichheim/Neuenhaus might have passed. Like with France, you would be talking about "regularising the borders", not annexions.

Long story short, anything beyond that requires a referendum from the local population. The 1955 one for the Saar clearly showed what would have happened.
 
While I doubt there will be a mutilated victory case per se, I can see Greeks viewing their security from a different POV. I believe France will go on a similar path when it comes to "strategic autonomy" and it would make sense for Greece to develop close ties with France. Especially a France with less trauma than in OTL. I can see Greece to be strongly integrated to western institutions but at the same time be a party in a sub-bloc under french leadership.

Greece won't just inherit the role of OTL NATO Turkey, but it will have an elevated position since the Soviets will be an actor in the Straits themselves - in contrast to OTL. That allows a wiggle room somewhat similar to that of Egypt.

Lastly, I think a lot will depend whether we will have a Suez Crisis and how it will unravel.
A Soviet naval presence in the straits, combined with disarming the straits, unintended result of British actions in the 1920s, means that you need to stop a breakout of the Soviet Black Sea fleet in the Aegean. Three guesses who needs to be doing said stopping...
 

Serpent

Banned
Considering who is Prime Minister, and Venizelos OTL stance on Bursa, you are not going to see a Greek demand for it.

Yeah, more than likely. But Greece could demand an extension of the Interionational zone to include Bursa, which would come with its own problems, but can be resolved if there's no unified administration for the international city, but rather two or three of we include Chanakàle separate autonomous administrations that have to cooperate on matters of foreign policy and military matters only essentially.

That could be a slap on the wrist for Turkey.
It would also create more refugee problems for Turkey without Greece having to foot the bill to resettle said territories or even take the reputation hit from forcing Turks out from their homes, as they would leave on a voluntary basis in smaller numbers in this scenario.

IMHO absent the catastrophe the only territories that will pluck the chords of Greece are The City, Pontus, and Cyprus. And unfortunately none of those three are Turkey's to give. No Hallicarnasus, is going to make up for the loss of even one.

True that, it can't really make up for the city, but at least getting something is better than getting nothing. Helps swollow the anger. Getting Troy and Halicarnassus maybe appease the Green public a bit.

So yeah the average greek will consider it a mutilated victory, but the wrath is not going yo be on Turkey, but on the USSR or the UK or the US or all three. Greek politics are going to be producing some very unwise political ideas and people in the Cold War years. Hell, Ismet is betting on that.

Exactly, same thing as with Italy, they did not put the blame on the Yugoslavians, they thought of them as lackeys and put the blame on the French primarily and also the UK, I could see Greece blaming primarily the USSR and the US and UK secondarily for giving into the USSR's demands.
 
While I doubt there will be a mutilated victory case per se, I can see Greeks viewing their security from a different POV. I believe France will go on a similar path when it comes to "strategic autonomy" and it would make sense for Greece to develop close ties with France. Especially a France with less trauma than in OTL. I can see Greece to be strongly integrated to western institutions but at the same time be a party in a sub-bloc under french leadership.

Greece won't just inherit the role of OTL NATO Turkey, but it will have an elevated position since the Soviets will be an actor in the Straits themselves - in contrast to OTL. That allows a wiggle room somewhat similar to that of Egypt.

Lastly, I think a lot will depend whether we will have a Suez Crisis and how it will unravel.

Honestly post war Europe feels like it’s going to be a very different beast from OTL. I still think there’s going to be a NATO equivalent for all the reasons there were OTL. But this Europe is much less beaten down, much less exhausted of conflict, and much more able to fight the “America did all the work” myth than OTL Europe. They’re going to see a lot less reason to kowtow to the US foreign policy, at least from those not directly bordering TTL Warsaw Pact. And that’s likely to lead to them throwing their weight around diplomatically and probably militarily as well. “Strategic Autonomy” probably won’t be a French concept in TTL but a European one in my mind.

I’ve already discussed how I could see France joining forces with Portugal and Spain in their combined fights against Decolonization. Italy as well if they keep any of their colonial possessions. Tripoli was like a third Italian at the time after all. And I think that pushing back against mass Decolonization may be the main way Western Europe as a whole attempts to assert itself post war. Europe trying to differentiate itself from the US foreign policy with her colonies and in the developing world but holding the line against the Soviets as a united front is “safe”. I don’t think they can stop decolonization from happening obviously, but I can very much see them doing their best to circumvent it where possible. I’m not thinking things like the Portuguese or French Style wars, but I can’t see the Brits giving up so many of their Pacific and Indian Ocean island possessions ITTL. I think an OTL French style “keep whatever you reasonably can” type Decolonization is likely for all major parties.

This fight against decolonization even applies to the Greeks to a certain degree. I’m sure they’re going to be trying to play all kinds of economic domination games in the newly minted Mid East nations with varying degrees of success. They won’t want to give that up once they have it.

To be clear I’m not saying European colonial empires are hear to stay. But I do expect there to be a lot more overseas territories in the European Union.
 
Part 144
Trebizond, April 30th

Twenty paratroopers begun boarding the Lisunov Li-2 transport plane. The airport was already drowned by the racket of dozens more of Shvetsov engines as more and more aircraft took off heading west.

Eski Sehir, night April 30th to May 1st.


The sergeant looked in wonder as dozens of radial-engined fighters start landing to the airport. The order had come just an hour earlier for the anti-aircraft guns to hold their fire as aircraft were coming to the airport.

"I did not know we had so many Focke-Wulfs left." he said with a whistle. "The Germans are sending reinforcements, finally?" Then he had a closer look at the aircraft, the La-5FN looked similar in the night but the sound of the engine was off. The red star roundel in an aircraft that taxied right before him clinched his suspicions. "These are Ivans. To arms!"

"Rescind that! These are friends cavus." The bitter irony in the voice of the captain would be most difficult to miss.

"Sir? These are Russians!"

The captain sighed. "And general Karabekir just signed an armistice. The orders just came in, the Russians were on their way and we were to help them in every way possible."

"The war is over? And we are to help the Russians move in as fast as possible?'

Do you prefer the giaours to occupy the place?

Channakkale, May 1st, 1944


The straits had been in the extreme range for the Li-2s and navigation at such a distance had been problematic. But the aircraft did not need to return the the airports they had taken off, at need they could land at Turkish airports much closer. Even if they failed to return at all this was a risk STAVKA had been told to accept. Some of the aircraft had indeed missed their target. Others had ventured off over the Greek or German lines and shot down. A few had crashlanded into Greek controlled territory, to the initial surprise of the Greeks. But most had managed to reach their destinations, happily for the Soviets the Luftwaffe and the Bulgarians were largely not much of a concern in the area and Greek night fighter squadrons operating further west for the most part.

The Greek major was starting to get pissed off. The guns had fallen silent at 07:00 as agreed, both sides had kept fighting to the last moment. But now his Turkish counterpart was refusing to allow his men to move forward.

"The armistice agreement is clear. Your government has agreed to allow full access to your territory to pursuit the war against the Germans. The Nazis are likely killing your own soldiers over in Gallipoli as we speak. Either you stand aside and let us fight the Germans or we push you aside by force."

"But we are in full compliance with the armistice. Why this gentleman can explain to you that the entire straits area is already under allied control." came the sardonic answer.

The major had a look at the man in the unfamiliar khaki uniform. Then he did a double take. "Russian"

"Soviet sir. 5th Guards Airborne brigade. Let me confirm Soviet forces are indeed in control of Channak and Lapseki in pursuit of operations against the Germans. My orders are to tell you that we do not need any help for your men. Indeed my commander instructed me to strongly suggest your troops don't advance any further. To avoid any friendly fire incidents you understand."

Minutes later the major was on a field phone informing headquarters.

Outside Kutahya, May 1st, 1944

Three days earlier the recently formed Turkish 1st Armoured Division had died in place in the largest tank battle of the war in Anatolia trying and failing to hold back the Greek III Armoured Division, the Greeks had thrown at it twice as many tanks, backed by armored infantry, heavy artillery and air support. The line of trenches hastily dug less than ten km from the city would had likely failed to hold the Greeks out for more than a day or two. But now it wouldn't matter. Kutahya and Bursa had been spared from capture at virtually the last moment thanks to the armistice.

Arkadioupolis, East Thrace, May 1st, 1944


The town, Luleburgaz for the Turks and the Bulgarians had been the subject of heavy fighting between the two then enemies back in the time of the 1st Balkan war. Now a column of the 10th Panzer Division entered it virtually without firing a shot. The 10th Panzer along with a Bulgarian armored brigade, the two Bulgarian cavalry division and the 1 SS Cossack cavalry division were rushing east to reach Constantinople ahead of the allies. The Turkish occupation troops, already spread thin by the need to reinforce the front in Anatolia and guard the coast, were offering little to no resistance.

Gallipoli, May 1st, 1944

The peninsula was being garrisoned by a mixed German-Turkish force, ever since in the summer of 1943 the Axis had fallen to the ruse that the Allies were planning to invade there instead of Italy. Most of the Turkish soldiers had crossed over to the Asian side to join the fight against the Greeks in the past weeks. The ones remaining had offered no resistance when the Germans disarmed them on the understanding they would be left to cross over to the territory still controlled by the Turkish army on the other side of the straits.

Batum, May 2nd, 1944


The quartet of Turkish destroyers, that had survived three years of war, came into the port to surrender in accordance with the armistice terms. For certain their crews had no intention of surrendering to the Greeks. Even if they had wanted to, going through the gauntlet of German coastal fortifications at Gallipoli would had been suicide.

Constantinople, May 3rd, 1944


The queen of cities had not fallen without virtually firing a shot. Some Turkish units had fought back in particular when faced by Bulgarians and Cossacks while Greek resistance groups, while failing to rise up had extended their campaign of sabotage and assassinations on the new occupiers as well. But the resistance such as it had been had been had been crushed. The Soviet airborne troops that had landed in Uskudar had stayed on their side of the straits, the Greeks and British had been in no position to intervene, not with Gallipoli securely in German hands and the Turkish units had quickly disintegrated. Or so it had been claimed. For certain Bosporus ferries had been working non-stop till the Germans and Bulgarians had secured control of the city. And if some soldiers had even joined the Germans instead of giving up the fight, this was understandable as well.

Cairo, May 5th, 1944

Vyacheslav Molotov remained completely unperturbed, unlike one might note Anthony Eden. "I don't see any reason of complaint. The presence of Soviet troops in Uskudar and the straits zone is in full compliance with the agreements between comrade general secretary Stalin, president Roosevelt and your own prime minister. The STAVKA should be commended for taking the initiative to deploy troops to continue the fight against the Nazis so fast and freeing up Greek and British troops for operations against the Germans elsewhere."

"I see. It's unfortunate that the straits will remain closed for the foreseeable future though making sending supplies to the Soviet Union problematic.". If Eden hinted at Lend Lease deliveries none could prove this.

"Unfortunate but I'm certain the existing supply routes through Murmansk and Iran will suffice. It would be unfortunate if the Soviet offensive to take place at the same time with your invasion of France had to be delayed from lack of supplies. But as said I'm certain this won't happen." came from Molotov along a pointed look at Cordell Hull.

"No mr Molotov is right. Any possible issues on the ground in Anatolia can be certainly by dealt with by the Allied control commission. But I must note there is not much to complain about so far, the president is very happy the fighting in Anatolia is over and forces can be concentrated on the main task of fighting the Germans..."
 
Well the Soviets just made enemies of the Greeks and the UK no matter how this ends. I wouldn’t be surprised if the UK also passed on that the Soviets “subtly” threatened to not help distract the Nazis from the liberation of France because of the straights. That’s got a very good chance of poisoning the well with the French. I also wouldn’t be surprised to see Churchill try to pull what the Russians just did somewhere else at least once before the war is over. Romania and Germany seem like prime targets.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if naval war games were regularly scheduled at the straits entrance by the Greeks to annoy the Soviets post war.

I feel kinda bad saying it but the faster FDR dies, the better for Europe as a whole. The man was entirely to naïve when it came to Stalin.

I also can’t help but think that the Wallies are going to be harder on Turkey for pulling this.
 
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