More Expansionist Ming

[Saepe Fidelis]

The Chinese did have a huge overseas trade though. Sandalwood, spices from southeast Asia, tons of the world's silver supply, etc. The in the Qing additional goods, like furs.

Except it imported very little, hence the rise of the opium trade. Britain needed to export something to China because its commerce was leading to a bullion trade in India, as well as inflation in China as enormous amounts of silver entering circulation.

China's trade problem was its massive balance of trade surplus, and reinforced the empire's lack of interest in the wider world-it didn't need to import things, extra-Chinese trade was just an added bonus, to be pursued at the discretion and whim of any emperor whose fancy seized upon it. Unlike Europe, where long-distance trade was not only a positive for countries, but an imperative.

 

[RousseauX]

Yep, why not have Chinese pirates building their own kingdoms while pledging loyalty to the current Chinese dynasty ?

Why not have privateering allowed against hostile nations ?

Here are some of infamous pirates in Ming era : Liang Daoming (have his descendants rule over Palembang) and Limahong (Philippines).

In Qing era, Ching Sih commanded 300 junks manned by 20,000 - 40,000 men. She challenged the empires of the time, such as the British, Portuguese and the Qing dynasty and she was undefeated.

Interestingly, Chui A-Poo in Qing era was caught and exiled to Tasmania.

That's actually a really interesting idea.

I think it's pretty plausible, especially with some sort of backing from the imperial court, for there to be Chinese Kingdoms or Republics set up in the Philippines and Indonesia established by one or another of those pirates.

Those states would be fairly viable, since its founders would not have the baggage from Confucian philosophy rambling about how trade is worthless (Confucius never did understand how trade increases wealth) and would probably have taken those territories for its commercial value in the first place.

 

[Richard V]

During the Ming collapse you had huge numbers of Chinese migrating abroad, it's a wonder this didn't happen during the earlier Song collapse. Was it because the Song Chinese were not as familiar with their maritime environment to try that?

The Qing response to this maritime diaspora was to shut down maritime activity and cut connections to these overseas communities which were essentially grassroots colonies. But had a similar mass migration occurred with the Song collapse the results might have been quite different.

With the Yuan lasting less than a century you could have surviving Chinese colonies by the time the Ming dynasty is established. The Ming rulers would be unlikely to view these co-ethnics as threats like the Manchus would, especially as early Ming was keen on expanding maritime influence. They might try establishing control over these colonies or at least integrate them into the tribute system.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

There's been numerous threads on this topic alone, the vast majority of which are so old that they can be necroed, and the general conclusion is that while "explorations" are theoretically possible, most of them would have focused on Southeast Asia, due to various existing trade routes. Not only would "exploring" lands have been very different from "settling" them, but launching ships would also have been extremely costly, as they would have cut down on necessary resources in order to repel northern nomadic invasions.

The latter specifically peaked during the Tumu Crisis in 1449 when a major Chinese army was essentially destroyed by a Mongol one, while the Zhengtong Emperor was briefly held for ransom, and the Ming was forced to rebuild the Great Wall as a major defensive measure. In addition, explorations from 1405-1433 IOTL under Zheng He demonstrated that retaining existing trading routes would have been more than enough, as accepting "tribute" from a wide range of countries would have made more sense than attempting to militarily "conquer" numerous regions, as the latter would have also essentially entailed "burning" down numerous sources of tribute during war. This was also why for well over two millennia, China attempted to directly conquer various neighboring hostile states, while generally leaving any submissive ones alone. In other words, various logistical, financial, and cultural considerations essentially prevented any Chinese dynasty from significantly expanding further after the Tang or so, as the country had already sustained an extremely high volume of internal and external trade, which would have led to temporarily significant net economic losses if further overseas expansions had been attempted.

They can use trade to help gain money and finance their war against the Mongols.

 

[EternalCynic]

Of course, sooner or later the Emperor and his eunuchs will understand how a few Chinese pirates had become stupidly wealthy and gained dominance of the Malay Archipelago and the Indian Ocean. The Confucian attitude that trade is unproductive and parasitic will be gradually swept aside.

But even this more outward-looking Chinese dynasty will be rather disinterested in direct imperialism due to its bad geographic location. It will more resemble the OTL Portuguese Empire where it directly controls small enclaves and islands (which make excellent naval bases and trading hubs) while exerting indirect influence over the hinterlands.

OTOH, Australia would make an excellent settler colony. California's Central Valley and OTL Pacific Northwest would be good settlement colonies too, depending on how many indigenous people survive the disease onslaught. The migration overseas would be tacitly blessed, as an escape valve for potential troublemakers back in China itself.

Such a Chinese dynasty with hegemony over the Indian and Pacific Oceans, and which has by now entered the Industrial Revolution before Europe does, would be irreversibly dominant of the whole world!

 

[democracy101]

They can use trade to help gain money and finance their war against the Mongols.

The Ming already did that extensively IOTL.

During the early 15th century, China demanded tribute from the Oirats (a Mongol sub-grouping) in the form of horses, leather, and similar items, although this also required it to compensate the nomads with silk, food, and related products. However, trade became extensive to the point where both Oirat and Uyghur traders managed to profit by a disproportionate amount, forcing the Ming to significantly cut down on the level of trade, and only paid 20% of what the horses were originally worth. This caused the nomads to intensify raids along the northern border, as they viewed the conditions to be unfair, and the Chinese managed to mobilize around 200,000-500,000 Chinese troops by 1449 in order to confront the Oirats, who only mobilized 20,000. However, the Ming continued to suffer defeats throughout several skirmishes, due to the fact that most of them were poorly trained and had minimal battle experience, and the conflicts eventually culminated in the Battle of Tumu, in which virtually the entire Chinese army was wiped out.

In other words, any Chinese dynasty would eventually seek to regulate trade by imposing specific limits, instead of significantly increasing the trading volume, regardless of the specific situation in question, as the latter would eventually profit from the trading involved at a significant cost to China, comparatively speaking. Attempting to resolve issues through military conflicts wouldn't have made a significant difference either, as Chinese troops would have been forced to fight in unfamiliar terrain, allowing the defenders to take advantage by utilizing various strategies, not to mention spending resources on both sides to finance the war, most of which could have been traded in peacetime instead. As a result, everyone would eventually be forced back to the drawing board, as maintaining sustainable levels of trade would have benefited all sides involved in the long run.

 

[06294086]

The Americas will also be a good place for settler colonies for another reason ; it's because native Americans in general do look like Chinese but with darker colors.

In OTL, Chinese immigrants in the Americas think of them as Chinese warriors who crossed overseas a long time ago and had become "uncivilized" and forgot the traditions.

 

[Sharunaku]

The Americas will also be a good place for settler colonies for another reason ; it's because native Americans in general do look like Chinese but with darker colors.

In OTL, Chinese immigrants in the Americas think of them as Chinese warriors who crossed overseas a long time ago and had become "uncivilized" and forgot the traditions.

What? That's really OTL? For all I know during Qing even people as close as Taiwanese aboriginals are regarded as belong to entirely alien cultures, much less people an ocean across.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

The Ming already did that extensively IOTL.

During the early 15th century, China demanded tribute from the Oirats (a Mongol sub-grouping) in the form of horses, leather, and similar items, although this also required it to compensate the nomads with silk, food, and related products. However, trade became extensive to the point where both Oirat and Uyghur traders managed to profit by a disproportionate amount, forcing the Ming to significantly cut down on the level of trade, and only paid 20% of what the horses were originally worth. This caused the nomads to intensify raids along the northern border, as they viewed the conditions to be unfair, and the Chinese managed to mobilize around 200,000-500,000 Chinese troops by 1449 in order to confront the Oirats, who only mobilized 20,000. However, the Ming continued to suffer defeats throughout several skirmishes, due to the fact that most of them were poorly trained and had minimal battle experience, and the conflicts eventually culminated in the Battle of Tumu, in which virtually the entire Chinese army was wiped out.

In other words, any Chinese dynasty would eventually seek to regulate trade by imposing specific limits, instead of significantly increasing the trading volume, regardless of the specific situation in question, as the latter would eventually profit from the trading involved at a significant cost to China, comparatively speaking. Attempting to resolve issues through military conflicts wouldn't have made a significant difference either, as Chinese troops would have been forced to fight in unfamiliar terrain, allowing the defenders to take advantage by utilizing various strategies, not to mention spending resources on both sides to finance the war, most of which could have been traded in peacetime instead. As a result, everyone would eventually be forced back to the drawing board, as maintaining sustainable levels of trade would have benefited all sides involved in the long run.

I am referring to more overseas.

 

[06294086]

What? That's really OTL? For all I know during Qing even people as close as Taiwanese aboriginals are regarded as belong to entirely alien cultures, much less people an ocean across.

That's real, but the problem is China is weak during the late Qing era, so the native Americans look down on Chinese immigrants.

If Chinese immigrants come to the Americas during the strong periods of China, I'm sure that they will look at Chinese immigrants differently.

 

[Sharunaku]

That's real, but the problem is China is weak during the late Qing era, so the native Americans look down on Chinese immigrants.

If Chinese immigrants come to the Americas during the strong periods of China, I'm sure that they will look at Chinese immigrants differently.

I mean " it's because native Americans in general do look like Chinese but with darker colors."
Is an incredibly WTF level of assertion.

In OTL, Chinese immigrants in the Americas think of them as Chinese warriors who crossed overseas a long time ago and had become "uncivilized" and forgot the traditions."

And what's the source of this?

 

[democracy101]

I am referring to more overseas.

You'd have to be more specific. Regardless of the specific tributary involved (Korea, Japan, Ryukyus, Vietnam, Siam, etc.), if any country paid "tribute" to China, the latter was obliged to pay them back in the form of gifts. For example, Joseon initially continued to provide an exorbitant amount of goods to the Ming for decades, eventually causing the latter to specifically request limiting the tribute in question, as the Ming was gradually burdened with sending countless gifts, and the negative costs became significant over time.

This unequal relationship was possible because Chinese products continued to be much more valuable due to their volume, so if China minimized trade with its neighbors, it would receive less "high-quality" and "exotic" goods from foreign sources, while if it suddenly increased the trading volume, more gifts would have to be exported in response, leading to a net loss for the Chinese treasury over the long run. As a result, attempting to use trade/tribute in order to finance its military campaigns wouldn't really have made sense.

At this point, I would highly suggest that you take at least a few months to do some research before asking any further questions.

 

[06294086]

I mean " it's because native Americans in general do look like Chinese but with darker colors."
Is an incredibly WTF level of assertion.

In OTL, Chinese immigrants in the Americas think of them as Chinese warriors who crossed overseas a long time ago and had become "uncivilized" and forgot the traditions."

And what's the source of this?

As the Chinese arrived in the U.S. and encountered American Indians, mutual interest and fascination was high.

A Chinese miner named Wong Ying reported that upon one of his first meetings with a group of American Indians, the two sides wondered whether they held a common ethnic background.

This sentiment would later be repeated after Chinese and American Indians met in a parade in Denver, Colorado.

Chinese men in the city speculated that American Indians were “long lost” countrymen who had simply sunk into savagery after centuries of separation.

A band of Apaches who saw a Chinese person for the first time when visiting San Francisco in 1887 were reported as utterly surprised and amazed at the appearance of the Chinese man.

The above quotation was taken from a PDF document titled “They Looked Askance”: American Indians and Chinese in the Nineteenth Century U.S. West." in a Reddit thread over here.

Scroll down the thread and you'll be able to find the link to the PDF file. The name of the PDF file is "Hua Honors Thesis 2012.pdf"

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

You'd have to be more specific. Regardless of the specific tributary involved (Korea, Japan, Ryukyus, Vietnam, Siam, etc.), if any country paid "tribute" to China, the latter was obliged to pay them back in the form of gifts. For example, Joseon initially continued to provide an exorbitant amount of goods to the Ming for decades, eventually causing the latter to specifically request limiting the tribute in question, as the Ming was gradually burdened with sending countless gifts, and the negative costs became significant over time.

This unequal relationship was possible because Chinese products continued to be much more valuable due to their volume, so if China minimized trade with its neighbors, it would receive less "high-quality" and "exotic" goods from foreign sources, while if it suddenly increased the trading volume, more gifts would have to be exported in response, leading to a net loss for the Chinese treasury over the long run. As a result, attempting to use trade/tribute in order to finance its military campaigns wouldn't really have made sense.

At this point, I would highly suggest that you take at least a few months to do some research before asking any further questions.

But Europeans traded silver and gold with China for goods, and China profited from that. Why do you think something similar is not possible?

 

[democracy101]

But Europeans traded silver and gold with China for goods, and China profited from that. Why do you think something similar is not possible?

Silver and gold were readily available to Europeans because Spain initially mined huge quantities of them from its colonies in the Americas through several major mines for centuries, then contacted China through the Philippines for trading relations. This was also the reason why China specifically demanded payment from Europeans in hard currency, as it already had a large influx of valuable goods from its tributaries to begin with. On the other hand, none of the tributaries neighboring China produced large quantities of currency that they could have continuously provided for decades, not to mention centuries. As a result, China essentially relied on a barter system that mostly consisted of a specific tributary providing its most valuable items, and China would respond with a specified amount of goods that it deemed to be suitable for the exchange. China also couldn't rig the system because the tributaries could trade with other neighboring countries if they felt that they were not compensated adequately for the products.

In other words, you're talking about two very different scenarios.

Also, I would suggest for you to frame your questions in a much more detailed manner from now on, as it's difficult for me to respond to such vague, overarching questions.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Silver and gold were readily available to Europeans because Spain initially mined huge quantities of them from its colonies in the Americas through several major mines for centuries, then contacted China through the Philippines for trading relations. This was also the reason why China specifically demanded payment from Europeans in hard currency, as it already had a large influx of valuable goods from its tributaries to begin with. On the other hand, none of the tributaries neighboring China produced large quantities of currency that they could have continuously provided for decades, not to mention centuries. As a result, China essentially relied on a barter system that mostly consisted of a specific tributary providing its most valuable items, and China would respond with a specified amount of goods that it deemed to be suitable for the exchange. China also couldn't rig the system because the tributaries could trade with other neighboring countries if they felt that they were not compensated adequately for the products.

In other words, you're talking about two very different scenarios.

Also, I would suggest for you to frame your questions in a much more detailed manner from now on, as it's difficult for me to respond to such vague, overarching questions.

Then what if Zheng He reached Europe then and established trade relations? Would that be beneficial?

 

[Sharunaku]

The above quotation was taken from a PDF document titled “They Looked Askance”: American Indians and Chinese in the Nineteenth Century U.S. West." in a Reddit thread over here.

Scroll down the thread and you'll be able to find the link to the PDF file. The name of the PDF file is "Hua Honors Thesis 2012.pdf"

Interesting read, never heard of that line of thought even among my Chinese friends, and they don't look much alike to me either.

 

[06294086]

Interesting read, never heard of that line of thought even among my Chinese friends, and they don't look much alike to me either.

You need to think in the context of the early Chinese immigrants coming to US and met native Americans for the first time.

As time goes by and more native Americans marry outside their ethnic groups, their appearance will start changing too.

Don't forget that even among Han ethnic group, there is a vast variety of facial features resulting from thousands of years of absorbing and assimilating nearby ethnic groups.

 

[democracy101]

Then what if Zheng He reached Europe then and established trade relations? Would that be beneficial?

Why?

Zheng He had more than enough countries to explore within Southeast and South Asia, and it remains uncertain whether he or one of his subordinates visited East Africa, suggesting that even the latter region was geographically distant to visit. It's also worth noting that the vast majority of the admiral's visits involved trade routes that were firmly established and well-known to the Chinese for decades, if not centuries, although he did expand upon some of them, and mapped out several uncertain routes among well-known regions. He also visited many of them specifically in order to reconfirm their status as tributaries, as many of them had become "disobedient" from the Chinese point of view (not to mention various pirates causing havoc across numerous coastal regions, which encompassed many of China's tributaries). A significant number of soldiers also accompanied the traders because they needed to protect their trade goods from uninvited pirates and bandits, not because they wanted to directly seize and permanently hold large chunks of land. In other words, visiting Europe would literally have been the last thing in Zheng He's mind (if it had been at all), who continued to travel by sea for almost three decades.

While the voyages themselves initially resulted in significant economic benefits due to the volume of "exotic" goods involved, the court continued to oppose building and sending such a large quantity of ships out to sea, as they would continuously drain the treasury over the long term. The latter was of particular concern because it would make it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to sustain funding for troops along the northern border, not to mention various other domestic projects. The government also decided to tackle pirate raids by imposing the Haijin, which essentially entailed banning all maritime trade through a large navy, although trading ships along rivers were allowed. While this ban only lasted several decades, as it further incited social instability, and became pointless when the wokou died down soon after Hideyoshi's nominal unification of Japan, it also proved that the government was willing to go to extraordinary measures on a domestic level just to curb piracy, leaving it with little to spare for overseas expeditions.

Even if Zheng He did manage to visit Europe, the immense geographical distance involved would have forced China and Europe to eventually resort to middlemen. At this point, it would have made more sense to reinstate the Silk Road, as less middlemen would have been involved along overland routes, although the maritime ones would probably still have continued to function. I already explained why it would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, for China to establish and continuously maintain colonies, mostly due to logistical and financial reasons, so I will not repeat the details. In addition, Europe (beginning with Spain) decided to travel westward because the Ottomans managed to maintain a monopoly on trade between the East and West, due to its status as an influential middleman, which meant that the latter was forced to pay for overpriced goods. On the other hand, while China's tributaries comparatively benefited more from trading, the country had less significantly issues with funding (as opposed to Europe), as it had virtually no middlemen to rely on. China also had no particular reason to trade directly with Europe because it already had enough resources (the latter only had coins to offer for centuries), while numerous European traders were willing to take the risk to extend trading routes further east and west in order to pay much less for the goods in question.

As a result, direct trade between Europe and China doesn't make sense on multiple levels.