I’d love to see a liberal/revolutionary French-backed pan Balkan movement or something"More successful revolutionary France leads to an undemocratic Europe" seems fairly standard, tho.' It's as if people don't like the French or something.
(And speaking of France, it's a bit odd that they've managed to overrun European Russia but have done nothing to expel the Ottomans from the Balkans. I could see the French avoiding spreading Republicanism and independence to the area if the Ottomans were an ally of convenience against the Russians, but that's hardly an issue here.)
Map Thread XXII
- Thread starter Balkanized U.S.A
- Start date
Good stuff & looks solid. I love the flag.
Some nitpicks.
Sarajevo as a capital may be a problem in a Yugoslavia with Bulgaria in it though. Sarajevo is a perfect “ethnically neutral and centrally located capital” for an ethnically egalitarian Yugoslavia with the rough borders of OTL, but in a case like this Skopje is my best bet, just because Sarajevo is so firmly in the Serbocroatian speaking west side, might anger the Bulgars.
I’d imagine if Sandžak and this small Montenegro (both of which have miniscule populations) are distinct states, Herzegovina might also be.
On a similar note, both population wise and in terms of this being a pan-Slavic not pan Balkan, and both demographically and seemingly politically (based on the autonomous Mt. Athos)slightly Orthodox-leaning state, Kosovo will likely be a separate state in the union, a kind of compromise between Serbs and Albanians where Serbia accepta that “all the pre unification countries are broken up into their regions, so Kosovo and Metohija are still Serbia” while ethnic Albanians there get to not be rules from Belgrade and have their own state in Yugoslavia. Also Kosovo alone has about double the population of TTLs Montenegro.
Sarajevo felt the best from an aesthetic standpoint. Same reason why I didn't spin Kosovo off. Herzegovina was briefly outlined while I was making the map but it looked awkward nestled up against the Sarajevo federal district so I ultimately scrapped it.
Ah okok, I can definitely respect the quest for aesthetically pleasing subdivisions.
Really need to use white for the font color on the blue, the names are unreadable.
It'd also be Beograd, not Belgrade, but I assume the author is using the common English version of the name in most cases here
Karl der Große
Banned
Yeah there are at least 11 place names that are English equivalents. The only beef I have is with Julijska, which should just be Julian.
From the same TL as my Vinland scenario. The Haudenosaunee Republic(Repblika Hádenosaani) is unitary presidential republic located in the heart of Hesperia. The Haudenosaunee people where formed when the semi-legendary figure known as Hiawatha, or the Great Peacemaker, United the warring tribes of the region into a single confederation. Hiawatha is widely regarded by the Haudenosaunee as the father of their country, and has a similar place in the Haudenosaunee imagination that for example Leif Erikson has in the Vinlandic imagination, Charlemagne has in the French imagination, or King Arthur has in the imaginations of the various nations of the British Isles. Following their unification, the Haudenosaunee began numerous wars of expansion against neighboring Algonquian peoples. The Haudenosaunee’s wars of expansion would lead to them conquering most of their current territory. The Haudenosaunee would enter a golden age following their victory over and conquest of their traditional rivals, the Huron, in the early 1700s. During this time period, the Haudenosaunee established themselves as the hegemonic power in the region, having no real competition. Due to this lack of competition, the Haudenosaunee shed their ancestral warlike ways and turned inward.
This period of relative stability would come to an end during the early Twentieth Century, as the Haudenosaunee proved unable to compete in an industrialized, modernized world. In 1911, a minor border dispute between the Haudenosaunee and the Anglo-French Empire from their colony in Assinoboinia would escalate into a three-year-long war in which the Haudenosaunee found themselves utterly humiliated. The Anglo-French would impose a treaty which declared the Haudenosaunee to be a protectorate of the Anglo-French Empire, which the Haudenosaunee almost immediately rebelled against. The Haudenosaunee War of Independence would end in 1920, with the Anglo-French Empire’s defeat in the Great Continental War, and the new Haudenosaunee Republic under Hetman[1] Konweraki Tekerihogen. Under Konwakeri’s[2] lead, the Haudenosaunee republic would begin to rapidly modernize, reestablishing themselves as a regional power.
Konweraki established an authoritarian, nationalistic regime and enforced his modernizing policies with a brutal and powerful secret police, the Ministry of Internal Security. He would serve as hetman until his death in 1953, when he would be succeeded by his son Halona. Halona would roll back most of his father’s more repressive policies until he decided to step down in 1967, allowing a new, democratic government to take hold. Konweraki and Halona remain controversial in the Haudenosaunee Republic today. On one hand, they were obviously dictators who occasionally resorted to repressive means to enact their agenda. On the other hand, they also turned the Haudenosaunee from a backwards and impoverished nation to a regional power at the cutting edge of innovation, and Konweraki in particular holds a certain prestige as the father of the republic.
The Haudenosaunee Republic’s greatest regional rival is the Vinlandic Commonwealth. Specifically, disputes over who controls certain parts of the Great Lakes remain a highly contentious issue between the two countries. The rival regional powers’ relationship has gotten worse since 2013, when they backed opposite sides in the Lenape Civil War. The two regional powers have engaged in several proxy wars throughout Hesperia, bringing more turmoil to the already troubled continent. In particular, the Haudenosaunee have tried to promote a Pan-Hesperian identity revolving around the Manitouist faith, in which the Haudenosaunee Republic is the beating heart of the continent. The Vinlanders have, in turn, resisted the Haudenosaunee’s regional ambitions whenever given the chance.
Over 90% of Haudenosaunee belong to the Manitouist faith. Manitouism is rooted in the belief in a spiritual life force called manitou(also called orenda among the Haudenosaunee) which permeates all things. The word “manitou” also refers to various spirits and deities worshipped in manitouism. Manitouist may be aashaa manitou, or good spirit, and otshee manitou, or bad spirit. Manitouist also believe in a creator god known as Gitchee Manitou, or the Geat Spirit. Manitouists believe that Gitchee Manitou gave everything its manitou. Manitouists believe that by following the precepts of the religion, we can return to Gitchee Manitou after death. Common Manitouists practices include prayer, fasting, and the use of hallucinogens. The use of certain drugs, particularly tobacco, in Manitouist ritual has become increasingly controversial among believers, with some advocating for doing away with these rituals. These reformers often cite health risks as their primary motivator. Manitouism is practiced throughout most of Northeastern Hesperia.
[1]The first major republic ITTL was in Russia, so “hetman” has the same connotation ITTL that “president” does IOTL.
[2]Tekerihogen is a title, not a surname(which the Haudenosaunee don’t really have ITTL)
This is really interesting. Do you have a more detailed map, one showing the borders of more countries, at least of North America (although South America would be great too)?
Yeah it's a bit sad to see so few scenario's where a succesful revolutionary france leads to a earlier democratic europe"More successful revolutionary France leads to an undemocratic Europe" seems fairly standard, tho.' It's as if people don't like the French or something.
(And speaking of France, it's a bit odd that they've managed to overrun European Russia but have done nothing to expel the Ottomans from the Balkans. I could see the French avoiding spreading Republicanism and independence to the area if the Ottomans were an ally of convenience against the Russians, but that's hardly an issue here.)
Beatriz
Gone Fishin'
"More successful revolutionary France leads to an undemocratic Europe" seems fairly standard, tho.' It's as if people don't like the French or something.
(And speaking of France, it's a bit odd that they've managed to overrun European Russia but have done nothing to expel the Ottomans from the Balkans. I could see the French avoiding spreading Republicanism and independence to the area if the Ottomans were an ally of convenience against the Russians, but that's hardly an issue here.)
Anyways, I liked your Revolutionary France-wank in the “Embiggen the Nation” series and would like to ask about it:
1) Were there other colonial powers besides Revolutionary France, Britain and Russia (in Persia, Afghanistan)?
2) Is there a UN equivalent?
3) How is nationalism perceived in the French sphere
4) What tertiary forces besides France and Russian-Japanese alliance are there?
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It doesn't even have to have a 'godless' nature. The lower clergy were prominent supporters of the revolution at first
I don’t have a more detailed map(as of right now), but I do have a general idea of what TTL’s North America looks like. The continent can be roughly divided into four regions; Vinland, a Greater Algonquian cultural sphere that engulfs most of the eastern half of the continent, Mesoamerica and the Caribbean, the Great Plains, and the Pacific Northwest. Southwest of Vinland is the Wabanaki Confederacy, which controls most of New England and the Canadian Maritimes(save Newfoundland). Due to centuries of Vinlandic influence it’s really more culturally European than native by this point, with most Wabanaki practicing Christianity, writing in the Latin alphabet, and considering their country to be part of Western civilization. South of the Wabanaki are the Lenape Republic, which is currently emerging from a devastating civil war which began in 2013 and ended around 2018. In 2015, the Haudenosaunee intervened in the Lenape Civil War, and the Lenape as of 2023 are effectively a Haudenosaunee puppet state.
Going further south, we encounter various nations occupying the Southeast. What would IOTL become known as the Five Civilized Tribes are still there, as are various other native states. I haven’t though quite as much about this region, so this is all I have for now. Even further south are the various Taino states of the Caribbean; Caobana(Cuba), Ayiti(Haiti), Lukairia(the Bahamas), Xaymaca(Jamaica), and Boriken(Puerto Rico). The Taino by this point are effectively a cultural extension of Mesoamerica, having absorbed much of their culture through trade. The introduction of Norse-style longships has allowed the Taino to develop into a seafaring, mercantile people. The rise of extensive trade networks in the region has led to the rise of various smaller kingdoms in Central America. In Mesoamerica proper, the Aztecs have expanded to control roughly the OTL borders of Mexico prior to the Mexican-American war. Further north are the civilizations of the Great Plains and the Pacific Northwest. The countries of the Plains are still largely nomadic. The Pacific Northwest is home to several regional countries.
I think it's uncommonality may have something to do with the fact that it is really hard to pull off without altering the French Revolution to the point were it isn't really the same anymore. Or let Europe spend quite a while in a dystopia before having itself pull itself out.
I mean yeah, if you want to get a different result from the french revolution you'll have to alter it, that's kinda the point. I'm also not sure as to what your point about dystopia refers to.
When someone says The French Revolution, one of the first thoughts that is going to be attached are things such as the la Terreur & the other events that coincided with it. Which tend to turn off the rest of Europe & a lot of modern sensibilities.
Now it is possible to do a French Revolution without those, however you will have actually explain that it is different, & loose the name recognition value of the "French Revolution".
Also, there is a very good chance that a less radical/violent French Revolution would not actual end up being a republic. Louis XVI was never against the concept of liberal reforms, nor where many of the clergy, as you pointed out. Which may still end up with a more liberal democratic Europe, but not in the way we general conceive of it, as there is a high likelihood for constitutional monarchies instead of republics.
As for my comment of a dystopia, my thinking was that the French Republic succeeded in spreading the revolution & the Terror to the rest of Europe (the dystopia part) & then, eventually, Europe realizes that all the violence was bad, & reforms but maintains their republican governments.