The details are a bit obscure.
That's a pretty cool map and scenario you have.
Bruce
Map Thread XI
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The details are a bit obscure.
That's a pretty cool map and scenario you have.
Bruce
Am I going crazy or is the image moving? I'm pretty sure it's not moving but whenever I scroll past it the borders seem to shift.
Some nitpicks: It seems that you got the Chinese dynasty naming convention wrong. That Cai dynasty is the first with that name and controls a substantial part of China so the prefix of Southern is unnecessary. On the other hand, the new Yuan is about a century apart from the last one, so a prefix is almost guarenteed. I prefer adding a "Later" to it.
Or from the POV of contemporaries, no prefix at all. Because when it still exists, it's the X dynasty.
Korea and Vietnam seems alright, as their dynasty names are family names unlike China. Also that Vietnam is a bit too wanked to me. They were yet to defeat Champa at the POD and somehow quadrupled to the size of French Indochina.
Shimazu Shogunate: There's no reason for them to put their capital at Edo. Tokugawa remained there instead of moving there after he became shogun. Plausible choices for them are 1) Staying at Satsuma, 2) Move to the more prestigious Dazaifu in Kyushu, 3) Build a new castle near Kyoto, like Hideyoshi to Osaka or 4) Move into Kyoto, though that may have some repercussions.
Iran: Azerbaijan and the area around Tabriz are predominantly Shiite Turks, they could be a great thorn in the Varshaspids' sides.
India: lol Eskandarid Dynasty
Oh, and Khanbaliq sounds way more badass(and Mongol) than Dadu.
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Dorozhand
Banned
Some nitpicks: It seems that you got the Chinese dynasty naming convention wrong. That Cai dynasty is the first with that name and controls a substantial part of China so the prefix of Southern is unnecessary. On the other hand, the new Yuan is about a century apart from the last one, so a prefix is almost guarenteed. I prefer adding a "Later" to it.
Or from the POV of contemporaries, no prefix at all. Because when it still exists, it's the X dynasty.
Korea and Vietnam seems alright, as their dynasty names are family names unlike China. Also that Vietnam is a bit too wanked to me. They were yet to defeat Champa at the POD and somehow quadrupled to the size of French Indochina.
Shimazu Shogunate: There's no reason for them to put their capital at Edo. Tokugawa remained there instead of moving there after he became shogun. Plausible choices for them are 1) Staying at Satsuma, 2) Move to the more prestigious Dazaifu in Kyushu, 3) Build a new castle near Kyoto, like Hideyoshi to Osaka or 4) Move into Kyoto, though that may have some repercussions.
Iran: Azerbaijan and the area around Tabriz are predominantly Shiite Turks, they could be a great thorn in the Varshaspids' sides.
India: lol Eskandarid Dynasty
Oh, and Khanbaliq sounds way more badass(and Mongol) than Dadu.
Thanks for the advice!
The Yuan Dynasty here is interesting, because it's being reestablished by the direct line of the original, although it still probably should have the "later" qualifier.
As for Cai (named after the ancient state), they later go on to reconquer northern China from the mongols, which is thence called "Northern Cai", in reverse order from what is normal. Of course it's only a retroactive addition in the same way as northern and southern Song.
The map can essentially be seen as an Oirat, Islamic Persia, and Vietnam wank
How did the Swedish-Hanseatic-Frisian coalition that would inevitably form against whomever tried to fortify the Danish Straits be defeated at sea by Russia, whose navy has always been somewhat pathetic for a country its size?
Blast from the past! Do you have the original of mine floating around anywhere, Bruce? I'd really like to see it, and I can't remember a thing about it.
Alex Richards
Donor
i don't know what either of you are talking about
Right, well I assume you are aware that you can copy and paste an image from Wikipedia or Google/Yahoo into the post.
If you use imgur or DeviantArt or some other online image uploading site then you can upload an image from your computer onto the internet and then do the same process.
Krall
Banned
i don't know what either of you are talking about
They're suggesting that, instead of posting the image so it appears in this thread, you post a link to the image instead. There are free image hosting sites (like imgur.com) that let you host the image there; then you can copy the image's URL and paste it into a post on here.
So, instead of posting an image so it appears in my post like this:
Instead I upload it to imgur.com (to upload images you'll need to click one of the buttons at the top left of the page) copy the image's URL (on imgur there should be a "Direct link" box on the right - click the button that looks like two pages next to it to copy the link) and then paste it in this post, like so:
http://i.imgur.com/XxZo4Ct.png
The forum automatically adds tags around any URLs you post, tur...d it's only loaded if they click the link. :)
Tallest Skil
Banned
Thing is, Ian could also enable the [TIMG] tag, which lets images be forcibly shrunken to the frame of the window in which they’re being viewed.
So on a mobile device, you’d see a too-wide image only as wide as the rendered frame. On the desktop, the same thing. Click it in either place to embiggen.
For a site where images are so important, I’ve always wondered why he hadn’t done that.
According to the details above, I'm going to assume that the PoD occurred in 1449 (Tumu Crisis), while the map is portraying the situation around the 17-18th century, given that you're mentioning Europeans within India. If these assumptions are correct, the (Later) Yuan would almost certainly not exist after 100-200 years or so, given that a group of people are eventually going to justify the loss of the Mandate of Heaven as revolts erupt across the country, most likely due to severe famines. In addition, once this dynasty begins to crumble, the Cai and Korea (using "Jin" for the "new" dynasty is questionable, which I will discuss further below) will seek to recapture their "lost" territories, causing the nomads to be pushed back into the steppes. In any case, even if the Yuan somehow manages to hold onto North China for longer than two centuries, which in itself would be virtually impossible without severe social upheaval, the ruling class would have been assimilated into Chinese culture within several generations, given what happened to the (Jurchen) Jin, Yuan, and Qing IOTL, causing control to eventually revert to the Han Chinese majority after social disruptions eventually contribute to the end of the dynasty.
Korea's portrayal is also questionable for two main reasons, specifically concerning "Jin" and the Yuan "conquest" of Korea's northern territories. "Jin" doesn't exactly make sense in context, as "Goryeo" and "Joseon" were named in reference to prior well-known dynasties ("Go(gu)ryeo" and "(Go)Joseon," respectively), not to mention that no Korean dynasty was referred to with just one syllable, barring a questionable exception, so you'll have to be specific on exactly which Chinese character "Jin" refers to in this scenario.
The territory that you're depicting is also questionable because for close to 700 years, the Khitan Liao, Jurchen Jin, Yuan, and Qing all failed to "conquer" and hold onto the peninsula's northern regions, as they essentially withdrew multiple times when the Korean court agreed to pay tribute. In particular, Goryeo held out against the Yuan for over 40 years precisely because the military faction had been in control, which will not be the case here considering that Sejo would probably take the throne around 1450-3 due to butterflies. In other words, while the court would probably be holed up in Ganghwa Island, the Mongols would almost certainly refrain from continuously attacking the peninsula for more than 10-20 years or so given their prior experiences, as the Mongols have less resources to spare due to controlling much less territory, not to mention that China is still holding out. Although the Ssangyeong and Dongnyeong Prefectures were incorporated as part of the Yuan, they depict a different scenario because they were annexed during peacetime, not to mention that the former was eventually returned after 20 years as a result of the Goryeo court continuing to stubbornly petition the Yuan for their return.
Joseon would also be well-prepared for a foreign invasion, as although the peninsula was caught entirely unprepared during the Imjin War, well over 150,000 Korean soldiers participated, not to mention that the navy led by Yi Sun-shin continued to disrupt Japanese supplies. In addition, Sejong ordered his generals to invade Tsushima with around 18,000 troops in 1419, and sent 15,000 against the Jurchen in 1433, both consisting of minor expeditions suggesting that at least 50,000 troops had been stationed across the country around 1400-1450, which could easily have been increased to around 100,000-200,000 in the event of a major war. It would also be extremely unlikely for a general to stage a coup, given that he would be warmongering, which would face extreme resistance from the people weakened after years of war. On the other hand, once the (Later) Yuan begins to show signs of strain, Korea might begin to push further north into Liaodong and Southern Manchuria, given that Goryeo refugees in Manchuria IOTL caused the Yuan to assign Shenyang (Simyang), stretching from Liaodong to the Tumen River, to Goryeo princes, and was a major reason for Goryeo's ambitions in Manchuria shortly before its fall. It's also possible that when the Mongols conquer the Jin remnants, Joseon might ally with the Yuan to expand further north, increasing the likelihood of Koreans within the region.
While this might work for Vietnam, I'm not sure where you got the impression that Korean dynasties can be referred to solely by their family names, as some dynasties were ruled by more than one clan due to political infighting, while some shared the same surname. According to this logic, the "Wang" dynasty was succeeded by the "Yi" dynasty, not to mention the "Hae," "Hae/Go," "Buyeo" (different from the state of Buyeo which officially ceased to exist in AD 494), "Kim," and "Park/Seok/Kim" dynasties that existed beforehand. Joseon is a relative exception because it can also be specified as the "Joseon Yi," but "Yi (Lee)" is never used by itself to solely refer to the dynasty in question.
In addition, titles of Korean dynasties had more than one syllable with only one exception (Jin), while the vast majority of Korean surnames only had one syllable ("Buyeo" was the only exception for a royal family), so that should have also suggested that the names of specific dynasties were unrelated to the royal families' surnames in question.
Agreed here.
Dorozhand
Banned
Thanks. Very illuminating
The state in Korea was named after the historical korean state of Jin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_%28Korean_state%29
I should have called it "later Jin"
Thanks. Very illuminating
The state in Korea was named after the historical korean state of Jin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_%28Korean_state%29
I should have called it "later Jin"
No problem. Glad that helped.
That "Jin" is technically fine, although it wasn't particularly well-known, as it remained unconsolidated before eventually dissolving into Mahan, Byeonhan, and Jinhan. In any case, that particular reason for proclaiming a new dynasty is extremely unlikely for reasons stated previously, so it would have been more likely for a minor prince, possibly a nephew of the deposed ruler, to take the throne instead, with the likelihood of a general ruling as regent, as both cases occurred during Goryeo and Joseon. Goryeo in particular was overthrown specifically because there were unrealistic expectations to seize territory in Manchuria, which will probably not occur here given that Joseon would remain defensive.
Dorozhand
Banned
Here's a revised version of the last map, which was rather confused chronologically. This is a depiction of the aftermath of Later Yuan rule of northern China after the reconquest of the north by Cai in 1539. Yuan didn't disintegrate after this, though, and actually remained a formidable power. The Cai emperors, fearing a repeat of the Tumu Crisis, were extremely hesitant about chasing the Mongols back into the steppes, and so left them alone in an uneasy peace. Qadan Khan (Emperor Shaozong) of Northern Yuan reestablished the city of Karakorum and set up his new base of power there.
Yuan, also fought and won the "Cossack War" against the Russians (who ITTL are not as powerful) in Kashgaria and Manchuria, and in a treaty annexed Russian claims on the rest of eastern Siberia.
A particularly foolish Czar ordered an invasion of Yuan to expand Russia's influence in the far east, Russia couldn't get forces to the region efficiently, and relied on Cossack cavalry to win. By this time, the Mongols had become a gunpowder empire, and the Cossacks were defeated in Manchuria and Kashgaria. The one infantry army Russia managed to muster, against Yuan territory around Lake Balkhash, was defeated by a joint Mongol-Persian army, which coincided with a successful Persian invasion of the Russian Caucasus and a Perso-Mongol invasion of Russian territory around the Aral and Caspian seas.
This victory breathed yet new life into Da Yuan.
Hujin expanded northwards to reclaim northern Korea after the waning of Yuan power there.
I also took some air out of the Vietnam wank and kept a rump Khmer Empire alive.
The current year in 1700
Yuan, also fought and won the "Cossack War" against the Russians (who ITTL are not as powerful) in Kashgaria and Manchuria, and in a treaty annexed Russian claims on the rest of eastern Siberia.
A particularly foolish Czar ordered an invasion of Yuan to expand Russia's influence in the far east, Russia couldn't get forces to the region efficiently, and relied on Cossack cavalry to win. By this time, the Mongols had become a gunpowder empire, and the Cossacks were defeated in Manchuria and Kashgaria. The one infantry army Russia managed to muster, against Yuan territory around Lake Balkhash, was defeated by a joint Mongol-Persian army, which coincided with a successful Persian invasion of the Russian Caucasus and a Perso-Mongol invasion of Russian territory around the Aral and Caspian seas.
This victory breathed yet new life into Da Yuan.
Hujin expanded northwards to reclaim northern Korea after the waning of Yuan power there.
I also took some air out of the Vietnam wank and kept a rump Khmer Empire alive.
The current year in 1700
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I really like this new map. My criticism would be that the rivers are too thick and look a little like the borders in some places - perhaps a thin blue line would be better? I think it's an improvement on the original map, though the modern historical atlas style of the original appeals to me personally a little more than this faux-textured effect.
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