List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II

Yorel

Kellan Sullivan said:
given the dauphin was the child of double first cousins, I honestly don't see him living past 1720
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Depends. Genetics are a bit of lottery at times: consanguinity generally proves negative but sometimes it has little impact.

Among the people whom I checked with high consanguinity, there is Philip IV of Spain, the Grand Dauphin's grand father: despite being the result of two consecutive uncle-nieces marriages, he lived to 60. Further up the tree, you have Philip II of Spain, who is the son of two first cousins but also had to deal with the fact the Spanish and Portuguese royal family had kept marrying each other beforehand: he died at 71. And of course, because I always check them regarding consanguinity, there are a number of Lagids that reached their 60s despite the fact the dynasty practiced incestuous marriages.

The Grand Dauphin also still dies at 66 here. Pushes the limits a bit probably, but it looks believable and doesn't seem that far fetched.
Kellan Sullivan said:
except that Narbonne was born in 1755 and he was KIA, so not exactly a "natural" end to his life.
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I think you're confusing Philippe with his brother Louis-Marie. Philippe was born in 1750 and actually died in 1834, and he seemed to have done more of a political career. Louis-Marie on the other hand was born in 1755, became a general and died in 1813 on the front.

And I wasn't really caring that much about the way the original person died, just the lifespan for fun.
Kellan Sullivan said:
given that "Louis XX" would marry Maria Amelia of Naples here, I'd suggest moving "Charles X" birthyear to the first decade of the 1800s
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That's assuming the POD wouldn't butterfly the marriage. And given that I technically go back to avoiding the smallpox epidemic that wiped out the French Royal family in the 1710s, there is a high chance of this being the case. After all, would Louis XV/ATL Louis XVII marry Marie Lecszczynska in this scenario?

There are also other ways to explain a birth so late. Louis XIII and Anne of Austria married in 1615, but they had to wait for 1638 before Louis XIV was born: it wasn't for a lack of trying as Anne had four miscarriages beforehand, but she also didn't got along well with Louis XIII. The latter is also sometimes suspected of being a repressed homosexual, even if that doesn't align with his religious fervor and the fact he had platonic female romances as well.
Another possibility can be found with Louis XV. The man had ten legitimate children, but only two were sons and one died very young. So possibly, ATL Louis XX here could have only daughters before Charles X was born. And that's not even accounting for the possibility of multiple Dauphins that died before Charles X (which could actually explain why we don't get a Louis XXI instead...)
Last but not least, ATL Louis XX could always be foreced to remarry after his first wife died and their marriage had been childless or they only had surviving daughters.

Anyway, I just kept the birthdate of Naundorff's eldest son here as a basis, since the man claimed to be Louis XVII. But it was more of a "joke" in the way I built the tree.
Kellan Sullivan said:
but otherwise, its an interesting tree
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Yeah, for something that I mostly did with no real purpose beyond just for fun I quite like the result.

Just wish the way I went about simulating it hadn't left me with a King ruling since 1989 (well for one day) born in 1923 and his son and heir born in 1942... Makes me feel it's not really finished.
 

Stahlo

Lucky Number 1513: Catherine of Aragon and Anne of Brittany have living sons

Henry VIII (b. 1491) m. 1509 Catherine of Aragon (b. 1485) with issue

-Stillborn Daughter (b.1510 d. 1510)
- Henry, Duke of Cornwall (b. 1511 d. 1511)
-Henry IX of England (b. 1513) m. Maria of Portugal (b.1513) [1]
-Edward, Duke of York (b.1514) [2] m. Anne Bourchier (b.1517)
-Mary Tudor (b. 1516) m. Charles IX of France
-Stillborn daughter (b. 1518 d. 1518)

Louis XII (b. 1462) m. 1476 Joan of France (b. 1464), ann. 1498 no issue. m. 1499 Anne of Brittany (b. 1477) with issue

-Claude, Duchess of Brittany (b. 1499) m. Francis of Angouleme (b. 1494) [3]
-Shortlived son (b. 1500/1501 d.1500/1501)
-Stillborn son (b. 1503/1507 d. 1503/1507)
-Renee of France (b. 1510) m. James V of Scotland (b. 1512)
- Charles IX of France (b. 1513) m. Mary Tudor (b. 1516)

[1] Every miscarried/stillborn royal child of 1513 lived in this timeline.
[2] I decided to cut Cat a break and give her a third living child. The 1514 baby won the coin toss.
[3] Given the late date of her brother's birth, Claude's still stuck with Francis. I imagine that Anne of Brittany dies relatively on schedule as well.
 

Dragonboy

Stahlo said:
Lucky Number 1513: Catherine of Aragon and Anne of Brittany have living sons

Henry VIII (b. 1491) m. 1509 Catherine of Aragon (b. 1485) with issue

-Stillborn Daughter (b.1510 d. 1510)
- Henry, Duke of Cornwall (b. 1511 d. 1511)
-Henry IX of England (b. 1513) m. Maria of Portugal (b.1513) [1]
-Edward, Duke of York (b.1514) [2] m. Anne Bourchier (b.1517)
-Mary Tudor (b. 1516) m. Charles IX of France
-Stillborn daughter (b. 1518 d. 1518)

Louis XII (b. 1462) m. 1476 Joan of France (b. 1464), ann. 1498 no issue. m. 1499 Anne of Brittany (b. 1477) with issue

-Claude, Duchess of Brittany (b. 1499) m. Francis of Angouleme (b. 1494) [3]
-Shortlived son (b. 1500/1501 d.1500/1501)
-Stillborn son (b. 1503/1507 d. 1503/1507)
-Renee of France (b. 1510) m. James V of Scotland (b. 1512)
- Charles IX of France (b. 1513) m. Mary Tudor (b. 1516)

[1] Every miscarried/stillborn royal child of 1513 lived in this timeline.
[2] I decided to cut Cat a break and give her a third living child. The 1514 baby won the coin toss.
[3] Given the late date of her brother's birth, Claude's still stuck with Francis. I imagine that Anne of Brittany dies relatively on schedule as well.
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Do This mercy with queen anne!
 
yolly12345

yolly12345

yolly12345 said:
LOL, I didn't realize my family tree/TL would get so many reactions, I just thought of a random idea. Here are some updates.


Henry, the New Year’s Prince survives his infancy but dies of the Sweat in 1528.

Henry VIII, King of England (b. 1491/d. 1547) m. 1509 1) Catherine of Aragon (b. 1485/d. 1537); m. 1540 2) Eleanor of Portugal (b. 1523)*; r. 5) Bessie Blount (b. 1500), r. 6) Catherine Howard (b. 1523)

  • 1a. Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b. 1511/d. 1528) m. 1526 Catherine of Austria (b. 1507/d. 1578)
    • Edward VI, King of England (b. 1527/d. 1551) m. 1542 Margaret of France (b. 1523)
      • Margaret of England (b. 1542) m. 1557 Frederick II, King of Denmark (b. 1534)
      • Henry IX & I, King of England & Scotland (b. 1543) m. 1558 Mary I, Queen of England & Scotland (b. 1542)
      • Edmund, Duke of Gloucester (b. 1545/d. 1547)
      • Charles, Duke of York & Earl of Buchan [jure uxoris] (b. 1546) m. 1566 Christina Stewart, Countess of Buchan (b. 1548)
      • Mary of England (b. 1548) m. 1568 Charles IX, King of France (b. 1550)
      • Catherine of England (b. 1549/d. 1552)
      • Joan of England (b. 1551) m. 1567 John Hamilton, Marquess of Hamilton & Earl of Arran (b. 1540)**
      • Edward, Duke of Bedford (b. 1552) m. 1569 Ursula Stafford (b. 1553)*** —ELOPED—
  • 1b. Mary of England (b. 1516/d. 1560) m. 1534 James V of Scotland (b. 1512/d. 1542)
    • James, Duke of Rothesay (b. 1535/d. 1540)
    • MISCARRIAGE (1536)
    • Henry, Duke of Albany (b. 1537/d. 1539)
    • STILLBIRTH (1539)
    • James, Duke of Rothesay (b. 1541/d. 1542)
    • Mary I, Queen of Scotland & England (b. 1542) m. 1558 Henry IX & I, King of England & Scotland (b. 1543)
  • 2a. Elizabeth of England (b. 1541/d. 1544)
  • 2b. John, Duke of Somerset (b. 1543) m. 1561 1) Lady Mary Grey (b. 1545/d. 1578); m. 1580 2) Margaret Seton (b. ca. 1558/d. 1616)
  • 5a. Jasper Fitzroy, Earl of Richmond (b. 1519/d. 1536) m. 1535 Anne Bourchier, Baroness Bourchier (b. 1517)
  • 6a. Thomas Fitzroy (b. 1540/d. 1543)
  • 6b. Joyce Fitzroy (b. 1540) m. 1555 Edward Courtenay, Marquess of Exeter (b. 1527)


*eldest child/daughter of Joao III, King of Portugal & Eleanor of Austria who in this TL marry.
**James Hamilton dies earlier due to his insanity, after a string of broken betrothals, Princess Joan marries John, who’s raised to a Marquess to further unity with Scotland.
***Daughter of Dorothy Stafford, daughter of Ursula Pole, Baroness Stafford. The Stafford’s get the earldom of Stafford during the reign of Henry IX.
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Eleanor of Austria (b. 1498/d. 1558) m. 1519 João III, King of Portugal (b. 1502/d. 1557)
  • Afonso (b. 1519/d. 1523)
  • MISCARRIAGE (1520)
  • Manuel (b. 1522/d. 1526)
  • Eleanor of Portugal (b. 1523) m. 1540 Henry VIII, King of England (b. 1491)
  • Denis (b. 1525/d. 1526)
  • Maria Manuela of Portugal (b. 1527/d. 1545) m. 1543 Phillip II, King of Spain (b. 1527)
  • Antonio I, King of Portugal (b. 1529) m. 1550 Juana of Spain (b. 1535)
  • Isabel of Portugal (b. 1530) m. 1546 Ferdinand of Spain, Duke of Burgundy & Lord of the Netherlands (b. 1530)***
  • Carlos of Portugal, Duke of Guarda [jure uxoris] (b. 1532) m. 1548 Luisa of Portugal, Duchess of Guarda (b. 1531)****
  • Duarte (b. 1534/d. 1536)
  • João Manuel of Portugal, Duke of Barcelos (b. 1537/d. 1554)
***Son of Carlos and Isabel, Holy Roman Emperor and Empress, OTL he died as a baby.

****Daughter of Ferdinand, Duke of Guarda (b. 1507), OTL she died as a baby, here she survives.


Catherine of Austria (b. 1507/d. 1578) m. 1526 1) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b. 1511/d. 1528); m. 1531 2) Francis I, King of France (b. 1494/d. 1547)***
  • 1a. Edward VI, King of England (b. 1527) m. Margaret of France (b. 1523)
  • 2a. Louis, Duke of Anjou (b. 1532/d. 1538)
  • 2b. Catherine Valois, Fille de France (b. 1534) m. 1559 Emmanuel Philibert, Duke of Savoy (b. 1528)
  • 2c. Joan Valois, Fille de France (b. 1536/d. 1568) m. 1555 Nicolas of Lorraine, Duke of Mercœur (b. 1524)
***To fulfill the Treaty of Madrid (1526) & Treaty of Cambrai (1529)
 
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Rose’s War

Been MIA for a year (Uni is attempting to kill me off!) but back with a new tree :) This is very new (been working on it on and off for a few days) so if anyone has any suggestions or notices any errors please let me know!!

BASIS OF THE TREE: WI Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester and Jaqueline of Hainaut remained married and had issue.

HOUSE OF GLOUCESTER:
Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester [1390-1447] m. (a) Jaqueline, Countess of Hainaut [1401-1440]
1a. Henry, Count of Hainaut [1424-1464] m. (a) Agnes of Cleves [1422-1446], (b) Isabelle of Luxembourg [1423-1472]
- no issue

2a. Margaret of Gloucester [1425-1427]

3a. Thomas, Duke of Gloucester [1427-1472] m. (a) Joan(na) of Scotland [1428-1493]
1aa. Henry of Gloucester [1446-1447]
2aa. Jaqueline of Gloucester [1447-1458]
3aa. Catherine of Gloucester [1449-1519] m. (a) Charles, Duke of Berry [1446-1467*], (b) Edward IV, King of England [1442-1483]
- 1aaa. Alexandre, Duke of Berry [1464-1507] m. (a) Joan of France [1464-1491], (b) Louise of Savoy [1476-1531]
- -1aaaa. Joan of Berry [1491-1543]
-- 2aaab. Catherine of Berry [1494-1495]
-- 3aaab. Clovis II, King of France [1495-1540] m. Bonne of France [1495-1560]
-- 4aaab. Charles, Duke of Berry [1497-1524]
-- 5aaab. Louise of Berry [1498-1551] m. Richard, Duke of Brittany [1495-1548]
-- 6aaab. Louis of Berry [1499]
-- 7aaab. Marguerite of Berry [1501]
- 2aaa. Charles of Berry [1466]
- 3aaa. Charlotte of Berry [1467-1526] m. James IV, King of Scotland [1473-1515]
-- 1aaaa. Margaret of Scotland [1488-1530]
-- 2aaaa. James, Duke of Rothesay [1490-1491]
-- 3aaaa. Catherine of Scotland [1491-1495]
-- 4aaaa. Charlotte of Scotland [1494-1528]
-- 5aaaa. Robert IV, King of Scotland [1497-1548] m. Catherine 'Cat' of England [1497-1552]
-- 6aaaa. Alexander, Duke of Ross [1498-1502]
-- 7aaaa. Annabella of Scotland [1499-1550]
-- 8aaaa. Mary of Scotland [1502]
-- 9aaaa. Andrew, Duke of Ross [1507-1545]
- 4aab. Edward, Prince of Wales [1473-1477]
- 5aab. Edmund I, King of England [1475-1534] m. (a) Juana of Castile [1479-1555]
-- 1aaba. Catherine 'Cat' of England [1497-1552] m. Robert IV, King of Scotland [1497-1548]
-- 2aaba. Joanna of England [1498]
-- 3aaba. Edward of England [1499-1500]
-- 4aaba. Arthur I, King of England [1503-1575]
-- 5aaba. Isabel of England [1505-1569]
-- 6aaba. Mary of England [1506-1545]
-- 7aaba. Edmund, Duke of Bedford [1508-1511]
-- 8aaba. George, Earl of Hertford and Duke of Bedford [1510-1543] m. Anna von Kleve [1515-1557]
-- 9aaba. Cecily of England [1512]
-- 10aaba. Joan of England [1515-1595]
- 6aab. Richard, Duke of York [1476-1512] m. (a) [in 1498] Anne, Duchess of Brittany [1477-1524]
-- 1aaba. Isabeau of Brittany [1498-1549]
-- 2aaba. Catherine of Brittany [1499-1537]
-- 3aaba. Constance of Brittany [1501-1551]
-- 4aaba. Jean of Brittany [1504]
-- 5aaba. Francis of Brittany [1506-1507]
-- 6aaba. Richard, Duke of Brittany [1509-1548]
- 7aab. Catherine of England [1477]
- 8aab. Philippa of England [1479-1538] m. (a) Juan, King of Castile [1478-1507]
-- 1aaba. Isabella of Asturias [1495-1497]
-- 2aaba. Juan of Asturias [1496-1498]
-- 3aaba. Catalina of Asturias [1497-1505]
-- 4aaba. Eleanor, Queen of Spain [1499-1561] m. Joao III, King of Portugal [1502-1557]
-- 5aaba. stillborn son [1502]
-- 7aaba. Philippa of Castile [1505-1570] m. Alexander, Duke of Burgundy and Count of Hainaut [1502-1567]
4aa. Alexander, Count of Hainaut [1450-1499] m. (a) Mary, Duchess of Burgundy [1457-1482]
- 1aaa. Isabella of Burgundy [1475-1527] m. Jacques III, King of Cyprus [1473-1497]
- 2aaa. Phillip of Burgundy [1477-1478]
- 3aaa. Charles, Duke of Burgundy [1479-1496] m. Anne, Duchess of Brittany [1477-1524]
-- no issue
- 4aaa. John, Duke of Burgundy and Count of Hainaut [1480-1544] m. (a) Cecily of France [1487-1549]
-- 1aaaa. Alexander, Duke of Burgundy and Count of Hainaut [1502-1567] m. Philippa of Castile [1505-1570]
-- 2aaaa. Cecily of Burgundy [1503-1561]
-- 3aaaa. Joan of Burgundy [1506]
- 5aaa. Jaqueline of Burgundy [1481-1489]
5aa. Thomas, Duke of Gloucester [1451-1497] m. (a) [in 1460] Margaret Beaufort [1443-1514] [annulled 1462 by Edward IV], (b) Anne Plantagenet, Dowager Duchess of Exeter [1439-1476]**, (c) [remarriage] Margaret Beaufort [1443-1514]
- 1aab. Jaqueline, Countess of Gloucester [1465-1541] m. Edward, Duke of Pembroke [1473-1529]***


*suspected poison
** mysterious death of Henry, Duke of Exeter
***surviving son of Richard III (Richard, Duke of Pembroke ITTL) and Anne Neville


HOUSE OF YORK:

Richard, Duke of York [1411-1460] m. (a) Cecily Neville [1415-1495]
1a. Anne of York [1439-1476] m. (a) Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter [1430-1464], (b) Thomas, Duke of Gloucester [1451-1497]
- 1aa. Anne Holland [1461-1472]
- 2ab. Jaqueline, Countess of Gloucester [1465-1541] m. Edward, Duke of Pembroke [1473-1529}
2a. Henry of York [1441]
3a. Edward IV, King of England [1442-1483] m. (a) Bona of Savoy [1449-1471]****, (b) Catherine of Gloucester [1449-1519]
- 1aa. Anne of York [1465-1498] m. (a) Maximillian I, Holy Roman Emperor [1459-1519]
-- 1aaa. Frederick IV, Holy Roman Emperor [1492-1566] m. Anne of Bohemia and Hungary [1503-1547]
-- 2aaa. Anna of Austria [1495-1498]
-- 3aaa. Catarina of Austria [1496-1557]
-- 4aaa. Ernest, Archduke of Further Austria [1498-1539]
- 2aa. Mary of York [1467-1482]
- 3aa. Cecily of York [1469-1512] m. (a) Charles VIII, King of France [1470-1498]
-- 1aaa. Marie of France [1485-1519], nun
-- 2aaa. Cecily of France [1487-1549] m. John, Duke of Burgundy and Count of Hainaut [1480-1544]
-- 3aaa. Charles, Dauphin of France [1488-1489]
-- 4aaa. Louis, Dauphin of France [1490-1497]
-- 5aaa. Francis, Dauphin of France [1492-1495]
-- 6aaa. Bonne of France [1495-1560] m. Clovis II, King of France [1495-1540]
- 4ab. Edward, Prince of Wales [1473-1477]
- 5ab. Edmund I, King of England [1475-1534] m. Juana of Castile [1479-1555]
-- see issue under House of Gloucester
- 6ab. Richard, Duke of York [1476-1512] m. Anne of Brittany [1477-1524]
-- see issue under House of Gloucester
- 7ab. Catherine of England [1477]
- 8ab. Philippa of England [1479-1538] m. Juan, King of Castile [1478-1506]
-- see issue under House of Gloucester
[King Edward IV also had ten illegitimate children, including: Arthur Plantagenet, Viscount Lisle; Elizabeth Plantagenet, Duchess of Richmond; Grace Plantagenet, Duchess of Buckingham; Edward Plantagenet, Earl of March; George Plantagenet, Earl of Rutland; Eleanor Plantagenet, Countess of Northumberland; Margaret Plantagenet, Countess of Surrey]
4a. Edmund, Earl of Rutland [1443-1460]
5a. Elizabeth of York [1444-1503] m. (a) John de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk [1442-1492]
- 11 children
6a. Margaret of York [1446-1503] m. (a) Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy [1433-1477]
- no issue
7a. William of York [1447]
8a. John of York [1448]
9a. George, Duke of Clarence [1449-1481] m. (a) Isabel Neville [1451-1476]
- 1aa. Anne of Clarence [1470]
- 2aa. Margaret of Clarence [1473-1551]
- 3aa. Edward, Duke of Clarence and Earl of Warwick [1475-1519]
- 4aa. Richard of Clarence [1476-1477]
10a. Thomas of York [1451]
11a. Richard, Duke of Pembroke [1452-1499] m. (a) Anne Neville [1456-1485]
-1aa. Edward, Duke of Pembroke [1473-1529] m. Jaqueline, Duchess of Gloucester [1465-1541]
12a. Ursula of York [1455]

****with the Lancastrian House of Gloucester having so many connections to the continent, was quickly pressured into getting married for an alliance with France.
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

yolly12345 said:
Eleanor of Austria (b. 1498/d. 1558) m. 1519 João III, King of Portugal (b. 1502/d. 1557)
  • Afonso (b. 1519/d. 1523)
  • MISCARRIAGE (1520)
  • Manuel (b. 1522/d. 1526)
  • Eleanor of Portugal (b. 1523) m. 1540 Henry VIII, King of England (b. 1491)
  • Denis (b. 1525/d. 1526)
  • Maria Manuela of Portugal (b. 1527/d. 1545) m. 1543 Phillip II, King of Spain (b. 1527)
  • Antonio I, King of Portugal (b. 1529) m. 1550 Juana of Spain (b. 1535)
  • Isabel of Portugal (b. 1530) m. 1546 Ferdinand of Spain, Duke of Burgundy & Lord of the Netherlands (b. 1530)***
  • Carlos of Portugal, Duke of Guarda [jure uxoris] (b. 1532) m. 1548 Luisa of Portugal, Duchess of Guarda (b. 1531)****
  • Duarte of Portugal, ARCHBISHOP-PRINCE (b. 1534/d. 1560)
  • João Manuel of Portugal, Duke of Barcelos (b. 1537/d. 1554)
***Son of Carlos and Isabel, Holy Roman Emperor and Empress, OTL he died as a baby.

****Daughter of Ferdinand, Duke of Guarda (b. 1507), OTL she died as a baby, here she survives.


Catherine of Austria (b. 1507/d. 1578) m. 1526 1) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b. 1511/d. 1528); m. 1531 2) Francis I, King of France (b. 1494/d. 1547)***
  • 1a. Edward VI, King of England (b. 1527) m. Margaret of France (b. 1523)
  • 2a. Louis, Duke of Anjou (b. 1532/d. 1538)
  • 2b. Catherine Valois, Fille de France (b. 1534) m. 1559 Emmanuel Philibert, Duke of Savoy (b. 1528)
  • 2c. Joan Valois, Fille de France (b. 1536/d. 1568) m. 1555 Nicolas of Lorraine, Duke of Mercœur (b. 1524)
***To fulfill the Treaty of Madrid (1526) & Treaty of Cambrai (1529)
Click to expand...
A few things…

First, I find it extremely unlikely that João and Eleanor would have seven surviving kids. Just look at joao’s marriage with Catherine of Austria IOTL and Charles v and Isabella of Portugal…not half as many healthy kids.

Second, and this is a minor thing but still, Barcelos was a title that belonged to the Braganza, which is how it become a royal title later on IOTL.

And third, Edward vi and Marguerite can work with Catherine and Francois but it would have to be completed at the same time, otherwise Edward would be marrying his sister (at least in the eyes of the church.
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

Rose’s War said:
Been MIA for a year (Uni is attempting to kill me off!) but back with a new tree :) This is very new (been working on it on and off for a few days) so if anyone has any suggestions or notices any errors please let me know!!

BASIS OF THE TREE: WI Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester and Jaqueline of Hainaut remained married and had issue.

HOUSE OF GLOUCESTER:
Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester [1390-1447] m. (a) Jaqueline, Countess of Hainaut [1401-1440]
1a. Henry, Count of Hainaut [1424-1464] m. (a) Agnes of Cleves [1422-1446], (b) Isabelle of Luxembourg [1423-1472]
- no issue

2a. Margaret of Gloucester [1425-1427]

3a. Thomas, Duke of Gloucester [1427-1472] m. (a) Joan(na) of Scotland [1428-1493]
1aa. Henry of Gloucester [1446-1447]
2aa. Jaqueline of Gloucester [1447-1458]
3aa. Catherine of Gloucester [1449-1519] m. (a) Charles, Duke of Berry [1446-1467*], (b) Edward IV, King of England [1442-1483]
- 1aaa. Alexandre, Duke of Berry [1464-1507] m. (a) Joan of France [1464-1491], (b) Louise of Savoy [1476-1531]
- -1aaaa. Joan of Berry [1491-1543]
-- 2aaab. Catherine of Berry [1494-1495]
-- 3aaab. Clovis II, King of France [1495-1540] m. Bonne of France [1495-1560]
-- 4aaab. Charles, Duke of Berry [1497-1524]
-- 5aaab. Louise of Berry [1498-1551] m. Richard, Duke of Brittany [1495-1548]
-- 6aaab. Louis of Berry [1499]
-- 7aaab. Marguerite of Berry [1501]
- 2aaa. Charles of Berry [1466]
- 3aaa. Charlotte of Berry [1467-1526] m. James IV, King of Scotland [1473-1515]
-- 1aaaa. Margaret of Scotland [1488-1530]
-- 2aaaa. James, Duke of Rothesay [1490-1491]
-- 3aaaa. Catherine of Scotland [1491-1495]
-- 4aaaa. Charlotte of Scotland [1494-1528]
-- 5aaaa. Robert IV, King of Scotland [1497-1548] m. Catherine 'Cat' of England [1497-1552]
-- 6aaaa. Alexander, Duke of Ross [1498-1502]
-- 7aaaa. Annabella of Scotland [1499-1550]
-- 8aaaa. Mary of Scotland [1502]
-- 9aaaa. Andrew, Duke of Ross [1507-1545]
- 4aab. Edward, Prince of Wales [1473-1477]
- 5aab. Edmund I, King of England [1475-1534] m. (a) Juana of Castile [1479-1555]
-- 1aaba. Catherine 'Cat' of England [1497-1552] m. Robert IV, King of Scotland [1497-1548]
-- 2aaba. Joanna of England [1498]
-- 3aaba. Edward of England [1499-1500]
-- 4aaba. Arthur I, King of England [1503-1575]
-- 5aaba. Isabel of England [1505-1569]
-- 6aaba. Mary of England [1506-1545]
-- 7aaba. Edmund, Duke of Bedford [1508-1511]
-- 8aaba. George, Earl of Hertford and Duke of Bedford [1510-1543] m. Anna von Kleve [1515-1557]
-- 9aaba. Cecily of England [1512]
-- 10aaba. Joan of England [1515-1595]
- 6aab. Richard, Duke of York [1476-1512] m. (a) [in 1498] Anne, Duchess of Brittany [1477-1524]
-- 1aaba. Isabeau of Brittany [1498-1549]
-- 2aaba. Catherine of Brittany [1499-1537]
-- 3aaba. Constance of Brittany [1501-1551]
-- 4aaba. Jean of Brittany [1504]
-- 5aaba. Francis of Brittany [1506-1507]
-- 6aaba. Richard, Duke of Brittany [1509-1548]
- 7aab. Catherine of England [1477]
- 8aab. Philippa of England [1479-1538] m. (a) Juan, King of Castile [1478-1507]
-- 1aaba. Isabella of Asturias [1495-1497]
-- 2aaba. Juan of Asturias [1496-1498]
-- 3aaba. Catalina of Asturias [1497-1505]
-- 4aaba. Eleanor, Queen of Spain [1499-1561] m. Joao III, King of Portugal [1502-1557]
-- 5aaba. stillborn son [1502]
-- 7aaba. Philippa of Castile [1505-1570] m. Alexander, Duke of Burgundy and Count of Hainaut [1502-1567]
4aa. Alexander, Count of Hainaut [1450-1499] m. (a) Mary, Duchess of Burgundy [1457-1482]
- 1aaa. Isabella of Burgundy [1475-1527] m. Jacques III, King of Cyprus [1473-1497]
- 2aaa. Phillip of Burgundy [1477-1478]
- 3aaa. Charles, Duke of Burgundy [1479-1496] m. Anne, Duchess of Brittany [1477-1524]
-- no issue
- 4aaa. John, Duke of Burgundy and Count of Hainaut [1480-1544] m. (a) Cecily of France [1487-1549]
-- 1aaaa. Alexander, Duke of Burgundy and Count of Hainaut [1502-1567] m. Philippa of Castile [1505-1570]
-- 2aaaa. Cecily of Burgundy [1503-1561]
-- 3aaaa. Joan of Burgundy [1506]
- 5aaa. Jaqueline of Burgundy [1481-1489]
5aa. Thomas, Duke of Gloucester [1451-1497] m. (a) [in 1460] Margaret Beaufort [1443-1514] [annulled 1462 by Edward IV], (b) Anne Plantagenet, Dowager Duchess of Exeter [1439-1476]**, (c) [remarriage] Margaret Beaufort [1443-1514]
- 1aab. Jaqueline, Countess of Gloucester [1465-1541] m. Edward, Duke of Pembroke [1473-1529]***


*suspected poison
** mysterious death of Henry, Duke of Exeter
***surviving son of Richard III (Richard, Duke of Pembroke ITTL) and Anne Neville


HOUSE OF YORK:

Richard, Duke of York [1411-1460] m. (a) Cecily Neville [1415-1495]
1a. Anne of York [1439-1476] m. (a) Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter [1430-1464], (b) Thomas, Duke of Gloucester [1451-1497]
- 1aa. Anne Holland [1461-1472]
- 2ab. Jaqueline, Countess of Gloucester [1465-1541] m. Edward, Duke of Pembroke [1473-1529}
2a. Henry of York [1441]
3a. Edward IV, King of England [1442-1483] m. (a) Bona of Savoy [1449-1471]****, (b) Catherine of Gloucester [1449-1519]
- 1aa. Anne of York [1465-1498] m. (a) Maximillian I, Holy Roman Emperor [1459-1519]
-- 1aaa. Frederick IV, Holy Roman Emperor [1492-1566] m. Anne of Bohemia and Hungary [1503-1547]
-- 2aaa. Anna of Austria [1495-1498]
-- 3aaa. Catarina of Austria [1496-1557]
-- 4aaa. Ernest, Archduke of Further Austria [1498-1539]
- 2aa. Mary of York [1467-1482]
- 3aa. Cecily of York [1469-1512] m. (a) Charles VIII, King of France [1470-1498]
-- 1aaa. Marie of France [1485-1519], nun
-- 2aaa. Cecily of France [1487-1549] m. John, Duke of Burgundy and Count of Hainaut [1480-1544]
-- 3aaa. Charles, Dauphin of France [1488-1489]
-- 4aaa. Louis, Dauphin of France [1490-1497]
-- 5aaa. Francis, Dauphin of France [1492-1495]
-- 6aaa. Bonne of France [1495-1560] m. Clovis II, King of France [1495-1540]
- 4ab. Edward, Prince of Wales [1473-1477]
- 5ab. Edmund I, King of England [1475-1534] m. Juana of Castile [1479-1555]
-- see issue under House of Gloucester
- 6ab. Richard, Duke of York [1476-1512] m. Anne of Brittany [1477-1524]
-- see issue under House of Gloucester
- 7ab. Catherine of England [1477]
- 8ab. Philippa of England [1479-1538] m. Juan, King of Castile [1478-1506]
-- see issue under House of Gloucester
[King Edward IV also had ten illegitimate children, including: Arthur Plantagenet, Viscount Lisle; Elizabeth Plantagenet, Duchess of Richmond; Grace Plantagenet, Duchess of Buckingham; Edward Plantagenet, Earl of March; George Plantagenet, Earl of Rutland; Eleanor Plantagenet, Countess of Northumberland; Margaret Plantagenet, Countess of Surrey]
4a. Edmund, Earl of Rutland [1443-1460]
5a. Elizabeth of York [1444-1503] m. (a) John de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk [1442-1492]
- 11 children
6a. Margaret of York [1446-1503] m. (a) Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy [1433-1477]
- no issue
7a. William of York [1447]
8a. John of York [1448]
9a. George, Duke of Clarence [1449-1481] m. (a) Isabel Neville [1451-1476]
- 1aa. Anne of Clarence [1470]
- 2aa. Margaret of Clarence [1473-1551]
- 3aa. Edward, Duke of Clarence and Earl of Warwick [1475-1519]
- 4aa. Richard of Clarence [1476-1477]
10a. Thomas of York [1451]
11a. Richard, Duke of Pembroke [1452-1499] m. (a) Anne Neville [1456-1485]
-1aa. Edward, Duke of Pembroke [1473-1529] m. Jaqueline, Duchess of Gloucester [1465-1541]
12a. Ursula of York [1455]

****with the Lancastrian House of Gloucester having so many connections to the continent, was quickly pressured into getting married for an alliance with France.
Click to expand...
I’m curious, what attracts Edward iv to Catherine of Gloucester as a bride?
 

Rose’s War

HortenseMancini said:
I’m curious, what attracts Edward iv to Catherine of Gloucester as a bride?
Click to expand...

He would have just defeated Edward of Westminster, and it is then Catherine's family that has the strongest Lancastrian claim to the throne. By tying herself to him, it's an effort to reign in her family and bring any remaining Lancastrian loyalists to his side. It also gives him quite a few connections through marriage to the continent as well as Scotland, as her mother is a Scottish Princess. She has also already had two sons, and he has three daughters so is still in need of an heir :)
 

Kellan Sullivan

Rose’s War said:
He would have just defeated Edward of Westminster, and it is then Catherine's family that has the strongest Lancastrian claim to the throne. By tying herself to him, it's an effort to reign in her family and bring any remaining Lancastrian loyalists to his side. It also gives him quite a few connections through marriage to the continent as well as Scotland, as her mother is a Scottish Princess. She has also already had two sons, and he has three daughters so is still in need of an heir :)
Click to expand...
except that with a surviving Gloucester branch- i.e. a clear successor to Henry VI that is neither Beaufort nor Tudor- there'd be no War of the Roses, since York's staking his claim to the regency when there's a legitimate adult male (whose mother is also Henry VI's godmother) in front of him will be seen as little short of treason.

PS: you've also married Thomas of Gloucester off to the deaf-mute daughter of James I of Scotland
 

Rose’s War

Kellan Sullivan said:
except that with a surviving Gloucester branch- i.e. a clear successor to Henry VI that is neither Beaufort nor Tudor- there'd be no War of the Roses, since York's staking his claim to the regency when there's a legitimate adult male (whose mother is also Henry VI's godmother) in front of him will be seen as little short of treason.

PS: you've also married Thomas of Gloucester off to the deaf-mute daughter of James I of Scotland
Click to expand...

Marrying Thomas of Gloucester to the deaf Princess was entirely intentional! I figured the Scots would think themselves above a cadet branch to the English throne, so would give their least eligible daughter, per se.

I understand Gloucester is a successor, but there was a clear successor to Henry VI (Edward of Westminster) and York still rebelled. York was claiming he had a BETTER ancestry than Henry VI's claim via John of Gaunt as York is a descendant of Lionel (an older son than John of Gaunt), thus through such a claim he would also have a better claim than Gloucester too. So, I figured that with Henry VI still playing severe favourites and losing Normandy, York may still do as in ATL.
 

LoyalHistoryBuff

Rose’s War said:
Marrying Thomas of Gloucester to the deaf Princess was entirely intentional! I figured the Scots would think themselves above a cadet branch to the English throne, so would give their least eligible daughter, per se.

I understand Gloucester is a successor, but there was a clear successor to Henry VI (Edward of Westminster) and York still rebelled. York was claiming he had a BETTER ancestry than Henry VI's claim via John of Gaunt as York is a descendant of Lionel (an older son than John of Gaunt), thus through such a claim he would also have a better claim than Gloucester too. So, I figured that with Henry VI still playing severe favourites and losing Normandy, York may still do as in ATL.
Click to expand...
That's not how arrangement of royal marriages in Middle Ages worked. The deaf-mute daughter of James I wouldn't get married at all, she would be sent to the nunnery for the rest of her life. The would-be royal bride with the disability or disabilities rarely ever got married. No royal family, in that time period, would accept the disabled princess as a bride. Royal brides-to-be, in that time period, can't have any imperfection. Yes, there was at least one royal bride that did have imperfection, but they were very rare.
 

Cate13

Rose’s War said:
Marrying Thomas of Gloucester to the deaf Princess was entirely intentional! I figured the Scots would think themselves above a cadet branch to the English throne, so would give their least eligible daughter, per se.

I understand Gloucester is a successor, but there was a clear successor to Henry VI (Edward of Westminster) and York still rebelled. York was claiming he had a BETTER ancestry than Henry VI's claim via John of Gaunt as York is a descendant of Lionel (an older son than John of Gaunt), thus through such a claim he would also have a better claim than Gloucester too. So, I figured that with Henry VI still playing severe favourites and losing Normandy, York may still do as in ATL.
Click to expand...
The problem was Edward of Westminster took forever to show up. So York had a lot of time getting used to being the heir and raising his expectations. With Gloucester, he’s never going to have that expectation.
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

LoyalHistoryBuff said:
That's not how arrangement of royal marriages in Middle Ages worked. The deaf-mute daughter of James I wouldn't get married at all, she would be sent to the nunnery for the rest of her life. The would-be royal bride with the disability or disabilities rarely ever got married. No royal family, in that time period, would accept the disabled princess as a bride. Royal brides-to-be, in that time period, can't have any imperfection. Yes, there was at least one royal bride that did have imperfection, but they were very rare.
Click to expand...
I mean, Joan didn’t go to a nunnery IOTL…
 
RedKing

RedKing

Rose’s War said:
I understand Gloucester is a successor, but there was a clear successor to Henry VI (Edward of Westminster) and York still rebelled. York was claiming he had a BETTER ancestry than Henry VI's claim via John of Gaunt as York is a descendant of Lionel (an older son than John of Gaunt), thus through such a claim he would also have a better claim than Gloucester too. So, I figured that with Henry VI still playing severe favourites and losing Normandy, York may still do as in ATL.
Click to expand...
But with three other male lancastrians running around, Yorks claim would be gravely weakened and would win less people over. In 1460, the English Parliament was so reluctant to proclaim him King he had to settle for being made the heir so it’s less likely he’s able to get even that done.

An easier way to do it would be for Henry VI to die on schedule alongside Westminster with Gloucester’s son (now king ill) and without long to live. That way he could marry Catherine to Edward to secure the succession of his sister.
 

J.J.Jameson88

Princess Elizabeth of Clarence Lives...

Queen Elizabeth II (1820-1903), Reign (1837-1903)- Prince Alexander of The Netherlands, Prince Consort
  1. Adelaide, The Princess Royal (1839-1911)- Kaiser Frederick III of Germany
  2. King William V (1841-1922)- Princess Augusta of Saxe-Meiningen (Niece of Queen Adelaide)
  3. Prince George, Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh (1842-1924)- Victoria of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (OTL Princess Royal)
  4. Prince Frederick, Duke of Connaught and Strathearn (1845-1894)- Princess Marie Alexandrine of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach (Niece of Prince Alexander of The Netherlands)
  5. Princess Louise (1846-1935)- King Frederick VIII of Denmark
  6. Prince Arthur, Duke of Clarence and St. Andrews (1849-1919)- Princess Marie of Battenberg
 
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